Daniel 7 - 10 horns....

[Randy Kluth]

Please answer this question:

Verse 7:11 is indeed the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD. And the question is ... since the little horn came out of Rome (specifically, pagan Rome before its demis), then the little horn AND the 10 horns had to "come out" of pagan Rome before 476 AD.

Who is the little horn?

I do not agree that the demise of the "4th Kingdom" took place at the fall of Rome in 476 AD. I believe I already informed you that the W. Roman Empire continued long past 476 AD and reemerged as the Holy Roman Empire.

The E. Roman Empire didn't fall at all, except that Constantinople fell in 1453 AD. Even then, Imperialism in E. Europe continued in nations such as Russia. The USSR was clearly a form of E. European Imperialism, which is a form of modern-day Roman Imperialism.

The Little Horn, or "Antichrist," has not appeared yet. There should be an amalgamation of 10 European countries 1st, over which Antichrist will appear and come to dominate. Those countries likely already hold a dominant European position, from the UK to Russia. We'll see, I guess?

 

[Jay Ross]

Please answer this question:

Verse 7:11 is indeed the demise of pagan Rome in 476 AD. And the question is ... since the little horn came out of Rome (specifically, pagan Rome before its demis), then the little horn AND the 10 horns had to "come out" of pagan Rome before 476 AD.

Who is the little horn?

As I have stated above, the Bests and the Little Horn, i.e. also known as the false prophet in the Book of Revelation, is, just like the four winds of heaven, is also a wicked fallen heavenly host who joined Satan in his rebellion against God. The Little Horn has no connection to any human person or entity.

 

[Mark51]

In Daniel 7, we are told the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast kingdom and only then does the little horn come out after them.

If the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, and the 10 horns represent a new symbol for the 10 toes in the 4th kingdom of iron in Daniel 2, then who do they represent?

If the 4th beast kingdom is indeed pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain (Daniel 7:11), and that time was 476 AD, then both the little horn and the 10 horns must have arrived on the scene before pagan Rome's demise.

Any thoughts?

The reference to the ten horns and subsequent “little horn” is mentioned in Daniel 7:8, 19, 20, 23, and 24.

The “ten horns” are smaller kingdoms that formed from the forth beast’s expanded empire, but after/during its decline and dissolution before the little horn emerged. (Chapter 7:7) This fourth beast was the Roman Empire.

The three horns/kings that the little horn “humiliated” or defeated were Spain, France and the Netherlands. In other words, the little horn is symbolic for Britain. Eventually, as we have learned from history, Britain eventually united with the American colonies and became the Anglo-American World Power-the last “king” mentioned in Revelation 17:10. Compare Revelation13:1; 17:15.

 

[CTK]

The reference to the ten horns and subsequent “little horn” is mentioned in Daniel 7:8, 19, 20, 23, and 24.

The “ten horns” are smaller kingdoms that formed from the forth beast’s expanded empire, but after/during its decline and dissolution before the little horn emerged. (Chapter 7:7) This fourth beast was the Roman Empire.

The three horns/kings that the little horn “humiliated” or defeated were Spain, France and the Netherlands. In other words, the little horn is symbolic for Britain. Eventually, as we have learned from history, Britain eventually united with the American colonies and became the Anglo-American World Power-the last “king” mentioned in Revelation 17:10. Compare Revelation13:1; 17:15.

Thank you for your comment. Mark, if you would like to receive an authors copy of my commentary on Daniel, please send me a private message with you mailing address, PO Box or even your church’s address should you want to keep your personal information private.

Alternatively, IF INTERESTED, the commentary will be available most likely next week on Amazon and you could purchase it directly. If interested, let me know and I will send you the title and ISBN #.

But to your response, the 10 horns are found to come out of the 4th kingdom of Rome. Later in chapter 7 you will find they go through 2 more transitions.

These 10 horns are the same as the 10 toes that were contained WITHIN the iron feet of Rome - chapter 2.

But as a direct result of the cross (2:34 - the Stone or Jesus struck the FEET ONLY and broke apart the iron and clay ONLY. The iron of course is Rome, the clay is His people who were subjugated under Roman authority (iron feet).

 

[Wish-it]

I need to ask this question from the outset....
Can numbers be representative other than their sum of digits?

Explain question?

 

[Wish-it]

In Daniel 7, we are told the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast kingdom and only then does the little horn come out after them.

If the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, and the 10 horns represent a new symbol for the 10 toes in the 4th kingdom of iron in Daniel 2, then who do they represent?

If the 4th beast kingdom is indeed pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain (Daniel 7:11), and that time was 476 AD, then both the little horn and the 10 horns must have arrived on the scene before pagan Rome's demise.

Any thoughts?

I dont consider the 4th kingdom to be Rome. There's nothing in scripture to say its Rome. Its a supposition, which i consider incorrect. Scripture confirms scripture. Scripture says I have told you the end from the beginning. This is a family battle, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Read the origins, ie Gen 16.11,12 Ishmaels blessing, He will be a wild donkey of a man, his hand will be against everyone and everyones hand against him, and he will live in hostility towards his brothers. Are his brothers Roman??
Read Gen 27.39,40. The older will serve the younger, and when he grows restless he will throw off his yoke. Why is Israel being attacked, because his brothers are throwing off his yoke. They hate their brother and live in hostility towards him. Why will all the nations surrounding Israel wishing to destroy it, and who are they? Not Romans, papal Rome or pagan Rome, but twenty two odd descendant nations of Ishmaael and Esau.

 

[Wish-it]

Yes, SDA probably got their eschatology from the Reformed Church, who also thought that the Papacy was the Antichrist? The reason I am a Futurist, and left my Reformed background, is because I think the Futurists were right, from Ribera to Lacunza to Irving and Darby. The final Antichrist has not come yet.

I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I do agree with some of its Futurism.

Yeah futurists!

 

[quietthinker]

Explain question?

Can numbers mean than other than the sum of its digits unless it is specifically stated.
For instance, as examples
7 = I week, perfection, not just 4+3
3 = unity, triune, completeness not just 1+2
10 = a cycle
666 = ?

Prophecy has repeat numbers.
12 and 12x12

 

[covenantee]

Yes, SDA probably got their eschatology from the Reformed Church, who also thought that the Papacy was the Antichrist? The reason I am a Futurist, and left my Reformed background, is because I think the Futurists were right, from Ribera to Lacunza to Irving and Darby. The final Antichrist has not come yet.

I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I do agree with some of its Futurism.

"Antichrist" means either or both of:
1. against Christ
2. a substitute Christ

The Reformation recognized the applicability of one of those definitions to the following:

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

Futurism doesn't.

The Reformation got it right.

 

[Davy]

In Daniel 7, we are told the 10 horns come out of the 4th beast kingdom and only then does the little horn come out after them.

If the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, and the 10 horns represent a new symbol for the 10 toes in the 4th kingdom of iron in Daniel 2, then who do they represent?

If the 4th beast kingdom is indeed pagan Rome, and pagan Rome was slain (Daniel 7:11), and that time was 476 AD, then both the little horn and the 10 horns must have arrived on the scene before pagan Rome's demise.

Any thoughts?

Why do you Seventh Day Adventists keep trying to wrongly push the ten horns prophecy back in history when it is for the final beast kingdom at the END of this world when Jesus shall appear and war against it, as written?

Well, there is a conflict in the Scripture that we are supposed to catch about the 4th beast kingdom shown in Dan.7 vs. the actual 5th beast kingdom that is shown in Daniel 2.

Firstly, which one in Daniel is the Revelation 13:1-2 Scripture for the end of this world linked to?

Rev 13:1
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV

Likewise with Revelation 17:12-14 about the "ten horns" for the end of this world...

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV

Verse 14 above reveals those "ten horns" (ten kings) will war against Jesus on the day of His future coming at the END of this world. And... that those ten horns only receive power with the beast (king) for one hour, that beast king representing the "little horn" of Daniel that comes up among the 10 horns.

THAT SCRAPS MAN'S FALSE THEORIES OF THOSE 10 HORNS HAVING ALREADY EXISTED BACK IN HISTORY.

And the Daniel 2 beast image statue reveals it has FIVE PIECES when the "stone" (Christ) comes to smite it upon its feet of ten toes, and the whole beast statue pieces come tumbling down together, at the same time.

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV

1. gold = Babylon empire, days of king Nebuchadnezzar
2. silver = breast and arms, Medo-Persia empire
3. brass = belly and thighs, Macedonia, Alexander the Great
4. iron = legs of iron, pagan Roman empire
5. feet of iron mixed with clay = FINAL BEAST KINGDOM of our future at the END of this world, per the Book of Revelation. It is this FINAL beast kingdom that is about the "ten horns" and "little horn" of Daniel 7, the beast of Daniel 2:35, Daniel 2:44, and Revelation.

 

[covenantee]

Why do you Seventh Day Adventists keep trying to wrongly push the ten horns prophecy back in history when it is for the final beast kingdom at the END of this world when Jesus shall appear and war against it, as written?

Well, there is a conflict in the Scripture that we are supposed to catch about the 4th beast kingdom shown in Dan.7 vs. the actual 5th beast kingdom that is shown in Daniel 2.

Firstly, which one in Daniel is the Revelation 13:1-2 Scripture for the end of this world linked to?

Rev 13:1
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV

Likewise with Revelation 17:12-14 about the "ten horns" for the end of this world...

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV

Verse 14 above reveals those "ten horns" (ten kings) will war against Jesus on the day of His future coming at the END of this world. And... that those ten horns only receive power with the beast (king) for one hour, that beast king representing the "little horn" of Daniel that comes up among the 10 horns.

THAT SCRAPS MAN'S FALSE THEORIES OF THOSE 10 HORNS HAVING ALREADY EXISTED BACK IN HISTORY.

And the Daniel 2 beast image statue reveals it has FIVE PIECES when the "stone" (Christ) comes to smite it upon its feet of ten toes, and the whole beast statue pieces come tumbling down together, at the same time.

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV

1. gold = Babylon empire, days of king Nebuchadnezzar
2. silver = breast and arms, Medo-Persia empire
3. brass = belly and thighs, Macedonia, Alexander the Great
4. iron = legs of iron, pagan Roman empire
5. feet of iron mixed with clay = FINAL BEAST KINGDOM of our future at the END of this world, per the Book of Revelation. It is this FINAL beast kingdom that is about the "ten horns" and "little horn" of Daniel 7, the beast of Daniel 2:35, Daniel 2:44, and Revelation.

What to believe?

1. Futurism's fantasies, fallacies, and follies
2. The Reformation's faith, vision, and sacrifice in delivering the True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression

Need a hint?

 

[Davy]

What to believe?

1. Futurism's fantasies, fallacies, and follies
2. The Reformation's faith, vision, and sacrifice in delivering the True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression

Need a hint?

I'm not a Futurist, nor Historicist, nor Preterist, nor Dispensationalist, nor Hyper-Dispensationalist, nor Amill, nor Reformed Church, nor Catholic, nor any mainstream denomination.

But I am a Protestant Christian though; so what else ya' got? Your only other valid choice that I am is one who STAYS with God's Word AS WRITTEN. What denomination and seminary category are those who stay with what God's Word says as written?

But those on Ellen White's teachings who formed SDA, it's easy to spot that Cult, for they especially twist and corrupt the Daniel and Revelation prophecies about the end of this world.

 

[covenantee]

I'm not a Futurist, nor Historicist, nor Preterist, nor Dispensationalist, nor Hyper-Dispensationalist, nor Amill, nor Reformed Church, nor Catholic, nor any mainstream denomination.

But I am a Protestant Christian though; so what else ya' got? Your only other valid choice that I am is one who STAYS with God's Word AS WRITTEN. What denomination and seminary category are those who stay with what God's Word says as written?

But those on Ellen White's teachings who formed SDA, it's easy to spot that Cult, for they especially twist and corrupt the Daniel and Revelation prophecies about the end of this world.

" FINAL BEAST KINGDOM of our future at the END of this world, per the Book of Revelation. It is this FINAL beast kingdom that is about the "ten horns" and "little horn" of Daniel 7, the beast of Daniel 2:35, Daniel 2:44, and Revelation."

Evidently you're a futurist but don't know it.

You should read up on the Reformation some time.

 

[Davy]

" FINAL BEAST KINGDOM of our future at the END of this world, per the Book of Revelation. It is this FINAL beast kingdom that is about the "ten horns" and "little horn" of Daniel 7, the beast of Daniel 2:35, Daniel 2:44, and Revelation."

Evidently you're a futurist but don't know it.

You should read up on the Reformation some time.

Believing the actual Bible Scripture AS WRITTEN does not make one a Futurist, nor anything else. Futurism is man's... label and includes false doctrines like a Pre-trib Rapture theory which is NOWHERE written in God's Word, and even is one the MAIN doctrines of the Futurist! So it looks like it is YOU that needs to look deeper into what all those doctrines of men labels contain.

And just because one is a Protestant does NOT meaning they are of the Reform Church. My ancestors came to the Americas as French Protestants that left Catholic persecutions in 16th century France. They did hold closely to the early doctrines of the Reformation. But that was back in the 16th-17th centuries. So to claim that I also keep everything they believed shows how ignorant one can be with trying to apply man's silly category labels.

I believe what God's WRITTEN Word teaches about Christ's future 2nd coming, and is a physical bodily return of Jesus Christ back to this earth. How many seminary categories of men does that put me in, just because that is 'written' in God's Word? Definitely more than one category; so much for men's labels.

But when those on man's SDA Cult try to CHANGE the Daniel Scripture to claim Jesus fulfilled the 70th week of Dan.9 which idea is NOWHERE written, that's not a label of categories. That instead is a blatant blasphemy against The Word of God!

 

[covenantee]

But when those on man's SDA Cult try to CHANGE the Daniel Scripture to claim Jesus fulfilled the 70th week of Dan.9 which idea is NOWHERE written, that's not a label of categories. That instead is a blatant blasphemy against The Word of God!

When you say "NOWHERE written", you obviously haven't read Matthew 26:28 or Hebrews 8:13 or Hebrews 12:24.

Christ, the Divine Covenant Confirmer (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 26:28) fulfilled Daniel's 70th week perfectly and completely at Calvary.

Your attempt to contort Christ into antichrist is the quintessence of blasphemy.

But thank God, you'll never succeed.

 

[Davy]

When you say "NOWHERE written", you obviously haven't read Matthew 26:28 or Hebrews 8:13 or Hebrews 12:24.

That's old hat here on the forum, already been covered, so no need for you to act like repeating monkey of pushing false SDA doctrine.

The Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy is exact with matching historical dates with the Biblical events. What you follow scraps all that, making those who heed the false doctrine you are on Biblically illiterate.

 

[covenantee]

That's old hat here on the forum, already been covered, so no need for you to act like repeating monkey of pushing false SDA doctrine.

The Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy is exact with matching historical dates with the Biblical events. What you follow scraps all that, making those who heed the false doctrine you are on Biblically illiterate.

Your futurized falsified fantasized 70th week is decapitated, orphaned, and indeterminate.

But Daniel declares, "Seventy weeks are determined..."

That's all seventy.

Your eisegesis fails again.

 

[Randy Kluth]

"Antichrist" means either or both of:
1. against Christ
2. a substitute Christ

The Reformation recognized the applicability of one of those definitions to the following:

1. “All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.

Futurism doesn't.

The Reformation got it right.

I think there is room for both views. As the Apostle John indicated, many antichrists have already been in history, but a future one is coming.

1 John 2.18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

I believe that is a reference back to Dan 7 and the "Little Horn." That is not the Pope because we do not yet have the complete apostasy of European Christianity, and we do not have a 10 nation confederation under this particular Antichrist. He will reign unmolested for only 3.5 years.

And then there will be a challenge to his power, resulting in Armageddodn. That has yet to happen.

 

[CTK]

Daniel 2 — the statue (four metals)

Dan 2:39–40 — “After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and a third… of bronze… And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron…”

(head of gold, chest/arms silver, belly/thighs bronze, legs/feet iron = four human kingdoms.


Daniel 7 — the beasts (four beasts)

Dan 7:3 — “Four great beasts came up out of the sea…”

Dan 7:17 — “These four great beasts are four kings/kingdoms that shall arise out of the earth.”

Dan 7:23 — “The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth…”


There are only 4 metals in the metal man statue. They are only 4 animal / animal like beings in chapter 7. The clay in chapter 2 is meant to symbolize the Jewish people that are held captive and subjugated within the Roman Empire at the time of Christ. God is / will reveal His plan of restoration of His people from their exile in Babylon in 606 BC to His second coming. However, He will also reveal His plan of salvation and restoration for all of mankind in Daniel through the cross and the giving of His Holy Spirit on Pentecost. This is His plan and He has elected to reveal His plan through these 4 and only 4 kingdoms, the final kingdom will continue until His return.

 

[covenantee]

I think there is room for both views. As the Apostle John indicated, many antichrists have already been in history, but a future one is coming.

1 John 2.18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

I believe that is a reference back to Dan 7 and the "Little Horn." That is not the Pope because we do not yet have the complete apostasy of European Christianity, and we do not have a 10 nation confederation under this particular Antichrist. He will reign unmolested for only 3.5 years.

And then there will be a challenge to his power, resulting in Armageddodn. That has yet to happen.

There is no "the antichrist" in 1 John 2:18.

The futurist perspective, in referring to what has not yet occurred, is uncorroborated.

The fulfilled perspective, in referring to what has already occurred, is corroborated. Thus:

Daniel 7

Ten historical Roman horns (kingdoms) which arose out of the fourth beast/kingdom of the Roman empire, and their first or early kings:

Heruli - Anthyrius I
Suevi - Hermeric
Burgundians - Gjúki
Huns - Attila
Ostrogoths - Theodoric
Visigoths - Alaric I
Vandals - Genseric
Lombards - Lethuc
Franks - Ascaric
Anglo-Saxons - Alfred the Great

Roman little horn (kingdom) and king: The Roman papacy, governed by pope Gelasius I when the first of the three kings in Daniel 7:8,20,24, Odoacer of the Heruli, was overthrown in 493 AD.

The three kings overthrown ("subdued"): Odoacer of the Heruli in 493 AD, Gelimer of the Vandals in 534 AD, Teia of the Ostrogoths in 553 AD.

Thank God for the Reformation.