Daniel 7 - 10 horns....

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Randy Kluth

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There is no "the antichrist" in 1 John 2:18.
One does not need the word "the" before Antichrist in order to refer back to "the Antichrist" in Dan 7. The "the" is assumed when the context infers a previous reference. In this case, many antichrists have come as precursors to "the Antichrist" mentioned previously in Dan 7, who there is called "the Little Horn."

Dan 9.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully...
20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom...
24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people* and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

*this is what causes John to call him the "Antihrist"

Referring back to this "Little Horn" implies a reference to "the Antichrist." In fact, all references in the NT to the Antichrist, whether the "Man of Sin" or the "Beast" rely on Dan 7 as their point of origin.
The futurist perspective, in referring to what has not yet occurred, is uncorroborated.
You should not argue what you have yet to prove. I just corroborated the position by pointing out a future Antichrist is coming.
The fulfilled perspective, in referring to what has already occurred, is corroborated. Thus:

Daniel 7

Ten historical Roman horns (kingdoms) which arose out of the fourth beast/kingdom of the Roman empire, and their first or early kings:

Heruli - Anthyrius I
Suevi - Hermeric
Burgundians - Gjúki
Huns - Attila
Ostrogoths - Theodoric
Visigoths - Alaric I
Vandals - Genseric
Lombards - Lethuc
Franks - Ascaric
Anglo-Saxons - Alfred the Great

Roman little horn (kingdom) and king: The Roman papacy, governed by pope Gelasius I when the first of the three kings in Daniel 7:8,20,24, Odoacer of the Heruli, was overthrown in 493 AD.

The three kings overthrown ("subdued"): Odoacer of the Heruli in 493 AD, Gelimer of the Vandals in 534 AD, Teia of the Ostrogoths in 553 AD.

Thank God for the Reformation.
Both Daniel and the book of Revelation indicate that the 10 kings arising out of Rome will be, in their time, taken over by the Antichrist. And he will only reign unmolested for 3.5 years after which Christ will "soon" come to destroy him. This is a single generation that has not happened yet.

In some ways I would agree with the Reformers. At that time the Catholic Church had become corrupt under some bad popes, and the Protestant reformers were persecuted and martyrred. The Papacy had become a form of Antichrist, or False Prophet.

I think this is a warning that in the future the organized Church will grow corrupt again, and return to persecuting more doctrinally orthodox, conservative Christians. And they will be part of the false religion associated with the Antichrist.
 

CTK

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One does not need the word "the" before Antichrist in order to refer back to "the Antichrist" in Dan 7. The "the" is assumed when the context infers a previous reference. In this case, many antichrists have come as precursors to "the Antichrist" mentioned previously in Dan 7, who there is called "the Little Horn."

Dan 9.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully...
20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom...
24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people* and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

*this is what causes John to call him the "Antihrist"

Referring back to this "Little Horn" implies a reference to "the Antichrist." In fact, all references in the NT to the Antichrist, whether the "Man of Sin" or the "Beast" rely on Dan 7 as their point of origin.

You should not argue what you have yet to prove. I just corroborated the position by pointing out a future Antichrist is coming.

Both Daniel and the book of Revelation indicate that the 10 kings arising out of Rome will be, in their time, taken over by the Antichrist. And he will only reign unmolested for 3.5 years after which Christ will "soon" come to destroy him. This is a single generation that has not happened yet.

In some ways I would agree with the Reformers. At that time the Catholic Church had become corrupt under some bad popes, and the Protestant reformers were persecuted and martyrred. The Papacy had become a form of Antichrist, or False Prophet.

I think this is a warning that in the future the organized Church will grow corrupt again, and return to persecuting more doctrinally orthodox, conservative Christians. And they will be part of the false religion associated with the Antichrist.
I don’t think you have ‘tis right at all.

There are only 4 times in the NT where the term “AntiChrist” is found and all 4 refer to this a the “spirit” of the Antichrist- meaning anyone, person or institution, group, etc., that opposes the word of God and the Testimony of Jesus.

However, God has indeed gone to great lengths to speak of a person / institution that IS the one who will oppose Him, His saints, His Word, His laws. He is identified in chapters 7,8 and 11. He is spoken of in Revelation, although the term “little horn” is not found.

God identified 4 and only 4 kingdoms in Daniel- the 4 kingdoms identified as 4 distinct metals. He further confirmed this in chapter 7 but with 4 and only 4 wild animals. Each separate and distinct.

And in chapter 2, God revealed the “clay” that was held WITHIN the iron feet - Rome. This clay represented the Jews who were held captive within the Roman Empire at the time of Christ.

The Stone (Jesus) in 2:34 was not an end time event as ALL contend (that is identified in 2:35), but His first coming where He will symbolically strike the feet (only) and break apart or separate the clay from the iron . Jesus came not to destroy, but to divide.

This “division” separated those Jews (clay) that would later (2:41-43), to be termed either “pottery clay” or “ceramic / miry clay”. The former would represent those of His people that would accept Him as their Messiah and preach the Good News throughout the empire. Those Jews who would reject Him, the majority, would be the latter - there hearts were hardened and the “Potter” could not use them for His purpose.

When we move to chapter 7, God once again confirms the 4 separate kingdoms found in chapter 2, but now He uses animals as symbols. But if you focus only on the 4th kingdom of Rome, you will notice there has been much that has changed within that kingdom and chapter 7 and 8 will focus almost entirely on this 4th kingdom.

That is because the Stone that symbolically struck the feet was the cross and chapter 7 represents the time after the cross (for the 4th kingdom). Now, this beast is unlike the others and we find there are 10 horns COMING OUT from this 4th kingdom (after the cross). But AFTER the 10 horns (which WERE symbolized as the 10 toes in chapter 2 (BEFORE the cross) will come this “little horn.”

Meaning that the 10 toes and the 10 horns are the same entities AND existing both before and after the cross. BUT the “little horn” would only be found to come out of the 4th kingdom AFTER THE CROSS AND AFTER THE 10 horns came out from the 4th kingdom.

If you would like an (free) author’s copy of my commentary on Daniel that explains and supports this and so much more, please send me in a private message your mailing address, PO Box, or even your church’s address should you want to keep your privacy. Alternatively, if interested, you can purchase it online at Amazon directly. It should be available by early next week- in that case, send me a private message and I will give you the title and ISBN #.
 
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covenantee

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One does not need the word "the" before Antichrist in order to refer back to "the Antichrist" in Dan 7. The "the" is assumed when the context infers a previous reference. In this case, many antichrists have come as precursors to "the Antichrist" mentioned previously in Dan 7, who there is called "the Little Horn."

Dan 9.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully...
20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom...
24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people* and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.

*this is what causes John to call him the "Antihrist"

Referring back to this "Little Horn" implies a reference to "the Antichrist." In fact, all references in the NT to the Antichrist, whether the "Man of Sin" or the "Beast" rely on Dan 7 as their point of origin.

You should not argue what you have yet to prove. I just corroborated the position by pointing out a future Antichrist is coming.

Both Daniel and the book of Revelation indicate that the 10 kings arising out of Rome will be, in their time, taken over by the Antichrist. And he will only reign unmolested for 3.5 years after which Christ will "soon" come to destroy him. This is a single generation that has not happened yet.

In some ways I would agree with the Reformers. At that time the Catholic Church had become corrupt under some bad popes, and the Protestant reformers were persecuted and martyrred. The Papacy had become a form of Antichrist, or False Prophet.

I think this is a warning that in the future the organized Church will grow corrupt again, and return to persecuting more doctrinally orthodox, conservative Christians. And they will be part of the false religion associated with the Antichrist.
History corroborates. Speculation does not.

Scripture and history confirm that ten kings would arise out of the Roman empire. That began to occur after its fall in 476 AD. The kingdoms are identified in post 40.

Given that "antichrist" can mean a substitute christ, do the arrogations of the papacy in post 29 qualify it as an antichrist?
 
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Randy Kluth

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History corroborates. Speculation does not.
Nothing I shared with you was "speculation." I quoted Scripture!
Scripture and history confirm that ten kings would arise out of the Roman empire. That began to occur after its fall in 476 AD. The kingdoms are identified in post 40.

Given that "antichrist" can mean a substitute christ, do the arrogations of the papacy in post 29 qualify it as an antichrist?
Antichrist is a word that can mean whatever you want it to mean, depending on the context in which you use the word. But in context in the book of Daniel, the Antichrist is the "Little Horn," just as I said.

But yes, as I said, the Papacy in the time of the original reformers and even later were an "antichrist." They opposed legitimate and anointed Christian ministry. This is the same thing that THE Antichrist will do, just as the Scriptures indicated that I shared with you.

The 10 kings certainly did begin to develop historically, but the States of Europe were not a confederation of Europe into 10 nations with Antichrist presiding over them. So even the embryonic form of these 10 kings, such as the breakup of the Holy Roman Empire into states and the breakup of the Soviet Union into independent nations, this has never beenn fulfilled quite the way it is described in Dan 7.
 

covenantee

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Nothing I shared with you was "speculation." I quoted Scripture!
History has confirmed Scripture. That is my benchmark.
But yes, as I said, the Papacy in the time of the original reformers and even later were an "antichrist."
Glad you agree.
this has never beenn fulfilled quite the way it is described in Dan 7.
History has confirmed the way it is described in Daniel 7. What "quite the way" are you referring to?
 

Randy Kluth

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History has confirmed Scripture. That is my benchmark.

Glad you agree.

History has confirmed the way it is described in Daniel 7. What "quite the way" are you referring to?
I was referring to the way Dan 7 described the 10 kings being led by another king who puts down 3 of them in order to rule over all of them. This other king rules for 3.5 years and is then, soon after, defeated by the 2nd Coming of Christ. That is very different from the pattern of this development in history.

Again, there have been "many antichrists," but THE Antichrist has not come yet. Dan 7 describes the history of his time, as I just pointed out. In fact, Paul argues that the way we know Christ has not come yet is by noting that Antichrist has not come yet. If Antichrist already came during the Reformation, then Christ could conceivably come today.

But Christ cannot come today because he will only come with the specific mission of defeating Antichrist with the breath of is mouth. Ths is what Paul argues in 2 Thes 2.
 

Wish-it

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What to believe?

1. Futurism's fantasies, fallacies, and follies
2. The Reformation's faith, vision, and sacrifice in delivering the True Church from spiritual darkness and oppression

Need a hint? :laughing:
Nah just Futurism
 

Brakelite

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You are trying to find a common topology that confirms that the Daniel 2 Prophecy, the statue prophecy concerning what will happen over time to the Land of Babylon, is directly linked to the Daniel 7 prophecy, which is about the wicked heavenly hosts who are the beasts, who exercise influence over people groups, kingdoms and empires found anywhere in the whole earth, where there is no common contextual topology between the two scriptural passages.
What you are trying to say is that there is no relationship between what CTK accurately depicts as the understanding of the Daniel 2 prophecy, and your understanding of the Daniel 7 prophecy. Your understanding of prophecy reveals a complete disconnect between Daniel 2,7,8,9, and 11, whereas the truth is that each subsequent prophecy after Daniel 2 actually expands on the previous depictions of history, gives further details of the same powers while delivering them as different symbols, all the whole retaining and affirming the truths of the previous prophecies. What you do not see is a wonderful continuity, balance, and linked truths that bring so much light and life to the prophetic picture, dispelling doubt and darkness.
 

Jay Ross

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What you are trying to say is that there is no relationship between what CTK accurately depicts as the understanding of the Daniel 2 prophecy, and your understanding of the Daniel 7 prophecy. Your understanding of prophecy reveals a complete disconnect between Daniel 2,7,8,9, and 11, whereas the truth is that each subsequent prophecy after Daniel 2 actually expands on the previous depictions of history, gives further details of the same powers while delivering them as different symbols, all the whole retaining and affirming the truths of the previous prophecies. What you do not see is a wonderful continuity, balance, and linked truths that bring so much light and life to the prophetic picture, dispelling doubt and darkness.

I am sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree.

The Roman Empire has had no dominion over the Land of Babylon and as such it cannot be the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 stature prophecy. The Daniel 2 statue prophecy cannot be read without reference to what Jeremiah prophesied around 19 years after Daniel's statue prophecy, where he stated that Babylon would be devasted and desolated for a time period of some 2,048 year, which the disciple John foretold us that Babylon would be remembered once more during the unfolding of the Seventh Bowl judgement. History confirms that this occurred in 1922 BC when dominion over the land of Babylon was given to a newly formed nation called Iraq at that time.

If CTK had accurately depicted the understanding that we should hold with respect to the Daniel 2 statue prophecy, then he would have listed Iraq as the fourth segment of the statue. That was why I stated that there was not common topology between Daniel 2 and Dniel 7,8, 9 and 11 as such.

CTK was asking for an input to his opening post which is what I provided in my response. Now I read this,

If you would like an (free) author’s copy of my commentary on Daniel that explains and supports this and so much more, please send me in a private message your mailing address, PO Box, or even your church’s address should you want to keep your privacy. Alternatively, if interested, you can purchase it online at Amazon directly. It should be available by early next week- in that case, send me a private message and I will give you the title and ISBN #.

I can only suspect that he is an SDA author since you are defending him.

STK was not really wanting any input in his opening post in this thread.
 

Brakelite

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I am sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree.

The Roman Empire has had no dominion over the Land of Babylon and as such it cannot be the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 stature prophecy. The Daniel 2 statue prophecy cannot be read without reference to what Jeremiah prophesied around 19 years after Daniel's statue prophecy, where he stated that Babylon would be devasted and desolated for a time period of some 2,048 year, which the disciple John foretold us that Babylon would be remembered once more during the unfolding of the Seventh Bowl judgement. History confirms that this occurred in 1922 BC when dominion over the land of Babylon was given to a newly formed nation called Iraq at that time.

If CTK had accurately depicted the understanding that we should hold with respect to the Daniel 2 statue prophecy, then he would have listed Iraq as the fourth segment of the statue. That was why I stated that there was not common topology between Daniel 2 and Dniel 7,8, 9 and 11 as such.

CTK was asking for an input to his opening post which is what I provided in my response. Now I read this,



I can only suspect that he is an SDA author since you are defending him.

STK was not really wanting any input in his opening post in this thread.
I don't think CTK is an Adventist.
 

Brakelite

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The Roman Empire has had no dominion over the Land of Babylon and as such it cannot be the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 stature prophecy.
Where does it state that Rome had to occupy Babylon?
Jeremiah prophesied around 19 years after Daniel's statue prophecy, where he stated that Babylon would be devasted and desolated for a time period of some 2,048 year,
Have you a reference for that please.
 

Douggg

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There are only 4 times in the NT where the term “AntiChrist” is found and all 4 refer to this a the “spirit” of the Antichrist- meaning anyone, person or institution, group, etc., that opposes the word of God and the Testimony of Jesus.
That antichrist, singular, shall come was known by the believers that John was speaking to. The spirit of antichrist describes the characteristics that the antichrist will exhibit.

1John2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

How would have believers heard that antichrist (singular) shall come? Because in the gospel of John, it was recorded, Jesus speaking to the Jews....

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
 

CTK

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That antichrist, singular, shall come was known by the believers that John was speaking to. The spirit of antichrist describes the characteristics that the antichrist will exhibit.

1John2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

How would have believers heard that antichrist (singular) shall come? Because in the gospel of John, it was recorded, Jesus speaking to the Jews....

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
There is absolutely NO anti-Christ literal figure that will come upon the earth ... but God has indeed revealed the "evil one" in Daniel 7, 8, 9 and 11 and He also speaks of him in Revelation - but never by a name such as "anti-Christ."

God has given so much "ink" to this little horn yet everyone ignores him and only speaks of a mythical anti-Christ figure. All one has to do is to study Daniel - and Daniel is not an end time prophecy no matter how much you want to make it... It really is about coming Messiah - His first coming during the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy when He will be cut off but establish His earthly kingdom. After the cross we will soon see the little horn arrive in chapter 7 and he will rise to the top of the 4th kingdom beast around 500 AD. Approximately 95 % of chapter 11 is all about the post cross period beginning with 11:5. It does conclude in the very later verses - 40 -45 with the mentioning of the end times - but broadly. Revelation is really the 13th chapter of Daniel. It also begins after the cross with the 7 churches. You can put together all the charts you want but you ignore the kingdoms, kings, Messiah, the little horn and most surly, the understanding of the "timing" of the prophecies in Daniel. You have put so much effort into them you cannot let them ever go.
 
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Jay Ross

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Where does it state that Rome had to occupy Babylon?

That is the point, the bible does not to my knowledge.

Have you a reference for that please.

Jer 50:39 from memory and Rev 16:17-21. The Rev 16 is confirmed in the historical account when in 1926 Britian and France divided the Otterman Empire up between them.
 

Douggg

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There is absolutely NO anti-Christ literal figure that will come upon the earth ... but God has indeed revealed the "evil one" in Daniel 7, 8, 9 and 11 and He also speaks of him in Revelation - but never by a name such as "anti-Christ."
Being the antichrist is one stage that the little horn person will go through on the way to his destruction.

5 stages.jpg
 

CTK

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Being the antichrist is one stage that the little horn person will go through on the way to his destruction.

View attachment 70621
What you fail to understand is when he comes on the scene. He is not present in chapter 2 for a reason. He COMES OUT of pagan Rome in chapter 7 - but only AFTER the 10 horns come out of pagan Rome in chapter 7.

But since pagan Rome is destroyed in 476 AD (7:11), this means that BOTH the little horn AND the 10 horns must have already come onto scene BEFORE its demise!

That is the timing issue. You throw everything into he far future because you fail to identify both the little horn and the 10 horns.

And that is because you cannot find them in our history books.
 
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CTK

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That is the point, the bible does not to my knowledge.



Jer 50:39 from memory and Rev 16:17-21. The Rev 16 is confirmed in the historical account when in 1926 Britian and France divided the Otterman Empire up between them.
In the days of these kings, God will set up His kingdom… Jesus set up His kingdom this first coming. The kings / kingdoms are the same 4 kingdoms of the metal man age. Jesus came in the early part of pagan Rome. The 70 weeks of years was from 457BC to 33/34 AD. The Messiah was baptized on the first day of the 70th week to begin His ministry. He would go to the cross in 3.5 years. All of this happened while pagan Rome was in power. Pagan Rome destroyed the Temple on 70 AD…

All of these events took place in the Roman Empire in the 1st century AD.
Rome was known as the iron kingdom. God purposefully assigned specific metals to each of the 4 kingdoms for a reason- to properly identify each of them.

Chapter 11, after 11:4 begins just after the cross - obviously, still in pagan Rome in the early first century AD. Daniel is not about the end times - it is all about the Messiah and His plan of salvation for mankind.

Revelation then picks up in describing the 7 churches in John’s time (again, after the cross and after 70AD), and takes us through the next 2000 years.