Does Daniel 7:21–22 Support Amillennialism or Premillennialism?

[Truth7t7]

I let ChatGPT rephrase some things for me here and there. Still my thoughts, though.


That's a good question — and yes, I agree that Daniel 7:13–14 describes Christ’s ascension, not His Second Coming. The text says He comes “to” the Ancient of Days (not from), which fits Acts 1 and Psalm 110:1.

But when you ask, “Where in verses 17–27 is that explained?”, I think there’s a misunderstanding about how apocalyptic visions and interpretations work.

Daniel’s vision (vv. 2–14) includes multiple scenes — the four beasts, the thrones set up, the Ancient of Days seated, the books opened, the beast judged, the Son of Man coming to receive dominion, etc.

Then in vv. 17–27, the angel gives a high-level summary interpretation. That summary does not explain each individual verse line by line — especially not vv. 13–14 in isolation.

Instead, it focuses on:
The identity of the beasts (v.17)
The conflict with the saints (v.21)
The intervention of the Ancient of Days (v.22)
The judgment of the fourth beast (v.26)
The saints receiving the kingdom (v.27)

So vv. 13–14 are implicitly connected to vv. 22 and 27, but they’re not repeated or “explained” in detail. That’s not unusual. Apocalyptic interpretation sections often summarize rather than decode each symbol (compare Zechariah or Revelation).

Here’s how I see it harmonize:

• Daniel 7:13–14 – Christ ascends and receives authority (cf. Matt. 28:18; Eph. 1:20–22)
• Daniel 7:22 – A future point when the saints finally possess the kingdom (after beast is judged)
• Daniel 7:27 – The kingdom becomes visibly universal; “all dominions shall serve and obey Him”

This means vv. 13–14 are inaugural — the kingdom is given to Christ at His ascension. But vv. 22 and 27 point to the consummation, when that authority is fully exercised on earth and shared with His saints.

In other words:
Daniel 7:13–14 = Ascension
Daniel 7:22, 27 = Second Coming and Millennial reign.

There’s no contradiction. It's a case of “already, but not yet.” Christ received the kingdom at His ascension, but He has not yet enforced it over all nations. That only happens after the judgment of the beast (v.11, cf. Rev. 19:20), which is clearly still future.

A 1,000 year kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus is a fictional fairy tale found no place in scripture

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

 

[David in NJ]

Let’s look at two key passages:





Here’s what I want to draw attention to:

A Rare and Powerful Connection

The exact phrase "and judgment was given" appears only twice in the entire Bible (KJV):

Daniel 7:22 – "and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High"

Revelation 20:4 – "and judgment was given unto them"

That’s not a coincidence.

Both passages:

Use the same rare phrase

Refer to the saints

Refer to judgment/vindication

Result in the saints reigning or possessing the kingdom

It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Revelation 20:4 is picking up exactly where Daniel 7:22 leaves off.

And let’s be honest: no one — not even Amils — is going to argue that the “them” in Revelation 20:4 refers to the beast or the wicked. It's clearly the saints.

Continued....

Amil is a falsehood just as pre-trib rapture is and cessation of gifts and so on.......

 

[CTK]

I let ChatGPT rephrase some things for me here and there. Still my thoughts, though.


That's a good question — and yes, I agree that Daniel 7:13–14 describes Christ’s ascension, not His Second Coming. The text says He comes “to” the Ancient of Days (not from), which fits Acts 1 and Psalm 110:1.

But when you ask, “Where in verses 17–27 is that explained?”, I think there’s a misunderstanding about how apocalyptic visions and interpretations work.

Daniel’s vision (vv. 2–14) includes multiple scenes — the four beasts, the thrones set up, the Ancient of Days seated, the books opened, the beast judged, the Son of Man coming to receive dominion, etc.

Then in vv. 17–27, the angel gives a high-level summary interpretation. That summary does not explain each individual verse line by line — especially not vv. 13–14 in isolation.

Instead, it focuses on:
The identity of the beasts (v.17)
The conflict with the saints (v.21)
The intervention of the Ancient of Days (v.22)
The judgment of the fourth beast (v.26)
The saints receiving the kingdom (v.27)

So vv. 13–14 are implicitly connected to vv. 22 and 27, but they’re not repeated or “explained” in detail. That’s not unusual. Apocalyptic interpretation sections often summarize rather than decode each symbol (compare Zechariah or Revelation).

Here’s how I see it harmonize:

• Daniel 7:13–14 – Christ ascends and receives authority (cf. Matt. 28:18; Eph. 1:20–22)
• Daniel 7:22 – A future point when the saints finally possess the kingdom (after beast is judged)
• Daniel 7:27 – The kingdom becomes visibly universal; “all dominions shall serve and obey Him”

This means vv. 13–14 are inaugural — the kingdom is given to Christ at His ascension. But vv. 22 and 27 point to the consummation, when that authority is fully exercised on earth and shared with His saints.

In other words:
Daniel 7:13–14 = Ascension
Daniel 7:22, 27 = Second Coming and Millennial reign.

There’s no contradiction. It's a case of “already, but not yet.” Christ received the kingdom at His ascension, but He has not yet enforced it over all nations. That only happens after the judgment of the beast (v.11, cf. Rev. 19:20), which is clearly still future.

For what it is worth, here is a cut / paste from my commentary on the last "Interpretation Sequence" verse in chapter 7:


Daniel 7:19-22

19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel stood bewildered, struggling to understand the fourth beast he had just witnessed. Unlike the three beasts before it—Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece—this fourth beast was unlike anything he had ever seen. It wasn’t merely another kingdom rising to power; it was entirely different, more terrifying, and seemingly beyond human comprehension. Daniel desperately wanted to know the truth because nothing about this beast followed the patterns of the previous kingdoms.

1) It is diverse from all others.

At first, Daniel had seen a fourth beast in verses 7–8—a kingdom of iron strength, with iron teeth, crushing everything in its path. This beast, Pagan Rome, fit the mold of earthly empires—ruthless and militarily dominant. However, what Daniel was now seeing was different. This new version of the fourth beast still had its iron teeth, but now it also had nails of bronze—an unfamiliar and disturbing addition. Daniel had no idea what this meant. Why was this beast evolving? What had changed? If iron symbolized strength and military power, what did the bronze nails represent? This was not simply a political kingdom—this beast had transformed into something far more dreadful, something beyond warfare.

2) It has ten horns, but now they are on its head.

Daniel had already seen the ten horns rising out of the fourth beast earlier in the vision, but now they were on its head. What did this mean? Previously, the ten horns seemed to be coming out of the beast as if they were newly emerging powers. But now, they were fully formed, established on the head of the beast itself. This suggested a shift in power—something had changed, but Daniel didn’t understand how or why.

3) The little horn comes out, but only after the ten horns rise.

Daniel had seen a strange sequence of events: first, ten horns rise from the beast, then a smaller horn follows them. This little horn had not appeared immediately—it only came after the ten horns had fully emerged. What was this small horn, and why did it come later? The previous three beasts had simply ruled through kings and armies, but this fourth beast was behaving differently. Daniel had no reference point for a kingdom that transformed, split, and produced smaller powers that later changed the course of history.

4) Three of the ten horns fell before the little horn, which had eyes and a mouth speaking great things.

If that wasn’t confusing enough, Daniel also saw three of the ten horns fall—plucked out by the little horn. What kind of power could remove these three horns / powers? No other beast before this had ever acted this way. Not only did the little horn plucked up three of the ten horns, but it also had eyes and a mouth speaking great things. This wasn’t an ordinary ruler—it was something different, something more sinister. Why did this small horn behave as if it had intelligence? Why did it speak with such boldness?

5) The little horn makes war with the saints of the Most High—and prevails against them.

Daniel’s confusion turned to horror. This little horn didn’t just rule like other kingdoms—it actively waged war against the saints of the Most High. Worse still, it was winning. This was a spiritual war, not just a political or military one. No previous beast had ever been described in this way. How could an earthly kingdom have the power to battle against God's own people and succeed? This was beyond Daniel’s understanding. How could any kingdom challenge the Most High and prevail?

6) But only until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints.

Just when it seemed that this terrifying new power would continue unchecked, Daniel saw the Ancient of Days intervene. Judgment was given to the saints, and they were given possession of the kingdom. This revealed something even more shocking: the beast’s power was temporary. Despite its strength, its oppression, and its war against God’s saints of the Most High, it would eventually fall. The Most High would step in, and the kingdom would belong to His saints of the Most High. But nothing about this made sense to Daniel. He had only ever seen physical kingdoms rise and fall, but this was different. How could a kingdom dominate in such a way that even the Most High's saints suffered under it? Desperate for answers, Daniel turned to Gabriel, pleading for the truth. What was this terrifying fourth beast? Where did it come from? And why was it so unlike anything the world had ever seen?

 

[Davidpt]

A 1,000 year kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus is a fictional fairy tale found no place in scripture

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

At least you have some good arguments there---not. As if mere opinions alone can qualify as valid arguments.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


In both passages it involves a coming, yet it can't be involving the same coming. And here is why.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;


This MUST, as in no choice in the matter, precede the coming meant in verse 22. If the coming meant in verse 13 and 14 is involving the ascension 2000 years ago, but is allegedly meaning the same coming meant in verse 22, that would indicate we then have to place verse 21 before the time of the ascension. And that it would mean Christ's ascension 2000 years ago put an end to the war with the saints in verse 21, which is ludicrous.

I don't know if anyone actually thinks the coming in verse 13-14, 22 is the same coming, but in the event some do, well I just debunked it.

The only way they can be the same coming is if verses 13-14 are meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age. Except it's not meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age, yet verse 22 is meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age, since it is the only coming that can logically put an end to the war with the saints in verse 21.

Obviously, well at least to me anyway, this---Until the Ancient of days came(verse 22)--leads to this at the time---I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame(verse 11). Where many interpreters, so maybe not all interpreters, take to be involving Revelation 19:20. Therefore, in light of Revelation 19:20, the era of time in view in Daniel 7:22 is involving what happens because of the 2nd coming in the end of this age.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


If verses 9-11 are involving Revelation 20:11-15 like some insist, why is it that verse 12 says what it says rather than saying this instead? As concerning the rest of the beasts, they too were given to the burning flame at the time? Seriously, who would care at that point what happened to the rest of the beasts earlier in history if the context pertaining to verses 9-11 is involving Revelation 20:11-15? Talk about something being out of context big time. IOW, verse 12 is not relevant whatsoever if the context pertaining to verse 9-11 is involving Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't know if anyone actually thinks the coming in verse 13-14, 22 is the same coming, but in the event some do, well I just debunked it.

You've debunked nothing, as you've been shown and here it is again, the saints being overcome are the two witnesses seen in Revelation Chapter 11, they lay dead in Jerusalems street for 3.5 days, they're called to heaven as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds as Revelation 11:15 represents the "Second Coming" at the seventh and last Trump

The (Two Witnesses) are the saints that are overcome and killed when they finish their testimony in Jerusalem for 3.5 years as seen in Revelation 11:7, Revelation 13:7, and Daniel 7:21-22 below, same event in parallel teachings

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:21-22KJV
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:22 and Revelation 11:15 are the very same event in the second coming saints possessing the eternal kingdom (The End)

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Davidpt]

You've debunked nothing, as you've been shown and here it is again, the saints being overcome are the two witnesses seen in Revelation Chapter 11, they lay dead in Jerusalems street for 3.5 days, they're called to heaven as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds as Revelation 11:15 represents the "Second Coming" at the seventh and last Trump

The (Two Witnesses) are the saints that are overcome and killed when they finish their testimony in Jerusalem for 3.5 years as seen in Revelation 11:7, Revelation 13:7, and Daniel 7:21-22 below, same event in parallel teachings

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Daniel 7:21-22KJV
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:22 and Revelation 11:15 are the very same event in the second coming saints possessing the eternal kingdom (The End)

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Let's try something different here. Let's set aside for a moment the timing of the millennium and see if there is anything we agree with each other about?

For example, when I said the following, is it something you basically agree with or is it something you disagree with entirely? "Until the Ancient of days came(verse 22)--leads to this at the time---I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame(verse 11). Where many interpreters, so maybe not all interpreters, take to be involving Revelation 19:20. Therefore, in light of Revelation 19:20, the era of time in view in Daniel 7:22 is involving what happens because of the 2nd coming in the end of this age"

In the meantime I want to try and address your arguments in your post here. Is it your position that the 2Ws are two literal people and that for 42 months the beast is only waging war with these two saints and no other saints as well?

 

[shepherdsword]

Let’s look at two key passages:





Here’s what I want to draw attention to:

A Rare and Powerful Connection

The exact phrase "and judgment was given" appears only twice in the entire Bible (KJV):

Daniel 7:22 – "and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High"

Revelation 20:4 – "and judgment was given unto them"

That’s not a coincidence.

Both passages:

Use the same rare phrase

Refer to the saints

Refer to judgment/vindication

Result in the saints reigning or possessing the kingdom

It is perfectly reasonable to conclude that Revelation 20:4 is picking up exactly where Daniel 7:22 leaves off.

And let’s be honest: no one — not even Amils — is going to argue that the “them” in Revelation 20:4 refers to the beast or the wicked. It's clearly the saints.

Continued....

An interesting connection I have never made. Another verse that shows the elements earth aren't immediately melted is:

Da 7:12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

If the renovation of the earth is immediate then there would be no "season and time" 1000 years maybe?

 

[Davidpt]

An interesting connection I have never made. Another verse that shows the elements earth aren't immediately melted is:

Da 7:12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

If the renovation of the earth is immediate then there would be no "season and time" 1000 years maybe?

It is verse 12 that proves to me that Revelation 20:11-15 can't be meant in verses 9-11. Some interpreters insist verse 12 is simply parenthetical. except I don't buy that argument if these same interpreters are insisting verses 9-11 are involving Revelation 20:11-15. What happened to the rest of the beasts earlier in history would not remotely be relevant if the context of verses 9-11 is Revelation 20::11-15. Per that scenario verse 12 wouldn't be telling us what happened to the rest of the beasts earlier in history. It would be telling us that the rest of the beasts were also given to the burning flame at the time.

Not to mention, someone has to fulfill verse 27 since it says all dominions shall serve and obey Him. Meaning after verse 21 and 22 are fulfilled first. Therefore, in my mind verse 12 is involving the future millennium and satan's little season after the millennium. During the millennium they serve and obey Him, thus because they are being ruled over with a rod of iron. Not only by Christ, but by His immortal saints as well. After the millennium they are then tested when satan is loosed.

 

[jeffweeder]

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

In order for the Son of Man to come into the Fathers presence, suggests that he left his glorious presence at some point.

The only occasion I can think of is his ascending back to father after he came to bear the cross.
At that point he is given all authority, just as he said.

After the cross Jesus said...,

Matt 28
17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted [that it was really He]. 18 Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority (all power of absolute rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.



rev 5
6 And there between the throne (with the four living creatures) and among the elders I saw a Lamb (Christ) standing, [bearing scars and wounds] as though it had been slain, with seven horns (complete power) and with seven eyes (complete knowledge), which are the seven Spirits of God who have been sent [on duty] into all the earth.


Sounds like the ascension and Pentecost.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Rev 5 cont'

7 And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb (Christ), each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of fragrant incense, which are the prayers of the saints (God’s people). 9 And they sang a new song [of glorious redemption], saying,

“Worthy and deserving are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10
“You have made them to be a kingdom [of royal subjects] and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth.”



Victory of the cross for the repentant of all ages, as they await the blessed hope of the second coming glorification event.

 

[claninja]

Great analogy. I thought about this and asked AI what happens when time is shortened in the spacetime continuum.



When time is shortened in the spacetime continuum, it typically refers to the phenomenon of time dilation, where time appears to pass at different rates for observers in different states of motion or gravitational fields. This means that a moving clock will tick slower compared to a stationary clock, leading to differences in the measurement of time between observers.



If I remember correctly in the movie Interstellar, when some of the crew members land on a planet, they ran into trouble and had to stay longer than anticipated. Due to time dilation, by the time they got back to their spaceship 23 years had passed and the person that remained on the spaceship had aged greatly while those returning from the planet were only about an hour older.

Ok, keeping these things in mind, in Matthew 24:22 the days are shortened for the sake of the elect. If this is hinting at time dilation then from John’s perspective in Revelation 20 a thousand years have passed while only a short time has passed otherwise. In Revelation 20:5 it says “this is the first resurrection”. The thousand years could simply be pointing to the events that occur at the cross.

Looking at your folded paper and dot 1 being connected to dot 2, John observes this from starting with dot 1, going around the bulge of the paper fold and ending up at dot 2. A thousand years of time dilation versus taking the direct path where the two dots actually touch each other.

Exactly. Revelation 20, is the paper laid flat, unfolded, making it appear as if the 2 dots are literally separated by a long period of time. Daniel 7 is the paper folded, where the 2 dots are connected as one court scene, not separated by a long period of time.

 

[Truth7t7]

In the meantime I want to try and address your arguments in your post here. Is it your position that the 2Ws are two literal people and that for 42 months the beast is only waging war with these two saints and no other saints as well?

Yes The Two Witnesses Will Be Literal Prophets Returned In Physical Living Bodies​

God's "Two Witnesses" Rule The World During The Future Great Tribulation​

Many put the future (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) as the ruler of earth during the 3.5 year tribulation "wrong"!

It will be God's (Two Witnesses) that rule in bringing all plagues in torturing the evil world, a literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, God's in control!

Revelation 11:3-6 & 10KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Future (Two Witnesses) "All Plagues" As Often As They Will Representing "God"

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[claninja]

Great analogy, but even so...where are you seeing in Revelation 20:11-15 it equalling this in Daniel 7:22---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom?

Therefore, unless you have a better solution, this seems to mean in Daniel 7, what follows this---and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom--is this--And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him--not Revelation 20:11-15 instead.

IOW, IMO, Daniel 7:27 fits with the era of time Revelation 20:4 is involving. Obviously, or at least to me anyway, Daniel 7:27 can't come to pass until verses 9-12 are fulfilled first. And that verses 9-12 are parallel with verse 22. And that verse 22 is not parallel with Revelation 20:11-15, but is parallel with Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:4, to name a few. All these things IMO, of course.

Revelation 20:11-15 is when the ancient of days is sitting on the throne and books are opened. IF revelation 20 is about the same event, then revelation 20:11-15 most closely resembles Daniel 7:9-10, as BOTH scenes describe the ancient of days as sitting on the throne followed by the opening of the books.

• Daniel 7:9-10: "and the Ancient of Days took his seat;" "and the books were opened."
• Revelation 20: 11-15: "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it." "and books were opened"

In Daniel's vision, the setting up of the court room scene (ancient of days sitting on the throne; books being opened) occurs FIRST, and THEN the saints possess the kingdom (daniel 7:9-14). This repeated throughout the vision:

• Daniel 7:22
• Daniel 7:26-27

In Daniel 7, The saints being given judgment and possessing the kingdom, is the result of the ancient of days arriving and sitting on the throne and the court convening (daniel 7:9-10, 22, 26). This doesn't line up with the chronology of revelation 20 at all, where the saints are given thrones, and authority to judge for 1000 + years FIRST and THEN the ancient of days arrives on his thrones and the books are opened.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 20:11-15 is when the ancient of days is sitting on the throne and books are opened. IF revelation 20 is about the same event, then revelation 20:11-15 most closely resembles Daniel 7:9-10, as BOTH scenes describe the ancient of days as sitting on the throne followed by the opening of the books.

• Daniel 7:9-10: "and the Ancient of Days took his seat;" "and the books were opened."
• Revelation 20: 11-15: "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it." "and books were opened"

In Daniel's vision, the setting up of the court room scene (ancient of days sitting on the throne; books being opened) occurs FIRST, and THEN the saints possess the kingdom (daniel 7:9-14). This repeated throughout the vision:

• Daniel 7:22
• Daniel 7:26-27

In Daniel 7, The saints being given judgment and possessing the kingdom, is the result of the ancient of days arriving and sitting on the throne and the court convening (daniel 7:9-10, 22, 26). This doesn't line up with the chronology of revelation 20 at all, where the saints are given thrones, and authority to judge for 1000 + years FIRST and THEN the ancient of days arrives on his thrones and the books are opened.

That's correct, the ancient of days sitting is the final judgement at this time the saints possess the eternal kingdom

No tempirary 1,000 year millennial kingdom on this earth is seen in Dniel 7, because it's a fabricated fairy tale of man found no place in scripture

 

[grafted branch]

Exactly. Revelation 20, is the paper laid flat, unfolded, making it appear as if the 2 dots are literally separated by a long period of time. Daniel 7 is the paper folded, where the 2 dots are connected as one court scene, not separated by a long period of time.

Yes, and the paper being unfolded in Revelation vs fold in Daniel could also possibly be seen with Michael.

In Daniel 12:1-2 Michael takes a stand, a time of great trouble, the people are delivered, and a resurrection with some getting life and others contempt. This all seems to take place as one event.

In Revelation 12:7 there’s war (court room battle) in heaven where Michael fights the dragon. Most people place this event at Jesus’s birth or the cross, but it’s not until Revelation 20, after the thousand years, that we see the resurrection.

I’ve had some people argue that Michael stands up twice but Daniel 12:1 has the phrase “at that time shall Michael stand up”, implying the first time Michael take his stand will be the Daniel 12:1 event, which prevents inserting Revelation 12:7 prior to Daniel 12:1. The view that the paper is folded with the dots connected in Daniel while unfolded with separated dots in Revelation solves this problem.

 

[Davidpt]

In order for the Son of Man to come into the Fathers presence, suggests that he left his glorious presence at some point.

The only occasion I can think of is his ascending back to father after he came to bear the cross.
At that point he is given all authority, just as he said.

After the cross Jesus said...,

Matt 28
17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted [that it was really He]. 18 Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority (all power of absolute rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.



rev 5
6 And there between the throne (with the four living creatures) and among the elders I saw a Lamb (Christ) standing, [bearing scars and wounds] as though it had been slain, with seven horns (complete power) and with seven eyes (complete knowledge), which are the seven Spirits of God who have been sent [on duty] into all the earth.


Sounds like the ascension and Pentecost.







Rev 5 cont'

7 And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb (Christ), each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of fragrant incense, which are the prayers of the saints (God’s people). 9 And they sang a new song [of glorious redemption], saying,

“Worthy and deserving are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10
“You have made them to be a kingdom [of royal subjects] and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth.”



Victory of the cross for the repentant of all ages, as they await the blessed hope of the second coming glorification event.

It's possible that you and I might be somewhat on the same page in regards to verse 13 and 14. What's mainly in question, are we somewhat on the same page in regards to verses 9-12, 21-22, and verse 27? Speaking for myself I see none of those verses except for verse 21 meaning before His 2nd coming in the end of this age.

In my mind verses 13-14 are parenthetical, thus not meant to be taken to be meaning when verses 9-12 are meaning. Yet because of verses 13-14 it is directly connected with verses 9-12 since it is this same Son of man in verses 13-14 being the one sitting on the throne in those verses, 9-12. Except the coming in verse 13 precedes the events in verses 9-12, not follows them nor is meaning during them.

The question is, in Daniel 7 is chronology relevant or irrelevant? Obviously, relevant, because, for example, what is recorded in verse 21 can not be meaning after what is recorded in verse 22, but must mean before what verse 22 is involving. The fact verse 22 says that verse 21 continues in that manner until the Ancient of days comes. Since when does 'until' not involve chronology? Therefore, why would chronology matter between verses 21 and 22 but not matter elsewhere?

Verse 27, for example. Is or is that not chronologically meaning after verses 21-22 have been fulfilled?

 

[Davidpt]

Yes The Two Witnesses Will Be Literal Prophets Returned In Physical Living Bodies​

God's "Two Witnesses" Rule The World During The Future Great Tribulation​

Many put the future (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) as the ruler of earth during the 3.5 year tribulation "wrong"!

It will be God's (Two Witnesses) that rule in bringing all plagues in torturing the evil world, a literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, God's in control!

Revelation 11:3-6 & 10KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Future (Two Witnesses) "All Plagues" As Often As They Will Representing "God"

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

What you are failing to consider is this. There are two 3.5 year periods, not 1. One simply follows the other. Because, after all, how can the 2Ws be made war against after the 3.5 years when Revelation 13 is already telling us that it is during the 3.5 years that saints are being made war against? Therefore, two 3.5 year eras are required to fulfill these events. Literal 3.5 year eras? Maybe, maybe not. But even if not, no way can 3.5 years be symbolizing a long era of time, such as the past 2000 years like some interpreters seem to want to insist.

Regardless how one decides to interpret these 2Ws, it seems pretty apparent that the plagues they are seen unleashing throughout their allotted 3.5 years, these are not events that have been taking place throughout the past 2000 years. It is then a question of, when does their allotted 3.5 years initially begin?

 

[CTK]

An interesting connection I have never made. Another verse that shows the elements earth aren't immediately melted is:

Da 7:12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

If the renovation of the earth is immediate then there would be no "season and time" 1000 yea

In order for the Son of Man to come into the Fathers presence, suggests that he left his glorious presence at some point.

The only occasion I can think of is his ascending back to father after he came to bear the cross.
At that point he is given all authority, just as he said.

After the cross Jesus said...,

Matt 28
17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted [that it was really He]. 18 Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority (all power of absolute rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.



rev 5
6 And there between the throne (with the four living creatures) and among the elders I saw a Lamb (Christ) standing, [bearing scars and wounds] as though it had been slain, with seven horns (complete power) and with seven eyes (complete knowledge), which are the seven Spirits of God who have been sent [on duty] into all the earth.


Sounds like the ascension and Pentecost.







Rev 5 cont'

7 And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb (Christ), each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of fragrant incense, which are the prayers of the saints (God’s people). 9 And they sang a new song [of glorious redemption], saying,

“Worthy and deserving are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10
“You have made them to be a kingdom [of royal subjects] and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth.”



Victory of the cross for the repentant of all ages, as they await the blessed hope of the seco

An interesting connection I have never made. Another verse that shows the elements earth aren't immediately melted is:

Da 7:12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

If the renovation of the earth is immediate then there would be no "season and time" 1000 years maybe?

Yes, verses 7:1-8 describe earthly events, then Daniel is given a heavenly realm vision in 7:9-10 which shows the Ancient of Days in His court when judgement will soon take place.

Then, Daniel returns to verse 7:11 that reveals the little horn (papacy) will speak pompous words against God Himself. This or he (the little horn) comes to full power only after the beast (4th kingdom of pagan Rome) was slain (476 AD). After their demise, we would see the continued rise of the little horn where he would sit atop the "divided kingdom" which will become known as papal Rome.

Verse 7:12 is telling us that the first 3 beasts - Babylon, Medes- Persia and Greece which had been conquered / subjugated by mighty pagan Rome, would not disappear as a result of pagan Rome's demis but instead would now fall under the authority of papal Rome. Meaning, its people, culture, etc., would continue until the end of time but none would ever again have dominion or power as they once had.


Then, Daniel is given the second heavenly realm vision in 7:13-14. Here we find the Son of Man (Jesus) coming to the Ancient of Days. Now this is after the cross when Jesus returned to His Father. Here, He will be given dominion. But this of course does not mean this is an end time prophecy. God will send His Holy Spirit at Pentecost until His return.

Can you imagine what Daniel must be thinking? This is why verse 7:15 is also given to us - how could he possibly make any sense of these visions that are moving from an earthly to a heavenly scene and back again - not to mention he has no idea about these coming earthly kingdoms. This is why Daniel insists that Gabriel answer his "inquiries." None of this makes sense to him - especially the 4th kingdom that seems possibly be seen by him as two different entities (which they are) - he wants to understand the "truth."


In verses 7:17-22, Gabriel does respond to Daniel and gives him another one of his high level answers.... but it probably meant nothing to Daniel. but confuse him even more. But then comes the true interpretations from Gabriel that really matter - the details of the 4th kingdom (after pagan Rome's demise) - both an earthly and heavenly vision.

 

[claninja]

In my mind verses 13-14 are parenthetical, thus not meant to be taken to be meaning when verses 9-12 are meaning.

I would disagree that vs 13-14 are parenthetical based on the rest of the vision. The vision in Daniel 7:9-14 gives us a specific chronological order:

1. The court convenes (thrones placed, ancient of days arrives and sits on the throne, court sits, books opened)
2. The beast is slain
3. The son of man comes on the clouds and is given dominion, authority, and a kingdom

This lines up very neatly, chronologically, with the explanation of the vision in Daniel 7:26-27:

1. the court convenes
2. the little horn is destroyed
3. the saints possess the kingdom

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 20:11-15 is when the ancient of days is sitting on the throne and books are opened. IF revelation 20 is about the same event, then revelation 20:11-15 most closely resembles Daniel 7:9-10, as BOTH scenes describe the ancient of days as sitting on the throne followed by the opening of the books.

• Daniel 7:9-10: "and the Ancient of Days took his seat;" "and the books were opened."
• Revelation 20: 11-15: "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it." "and books were opened"

In Daniel's vision, the setting up of the court room scene (ancient of days sitting on the throne; books being opened) occurs FIRST, and THEN the saints possess the kingdom (daniel 7:9-14). This repeated throughout the vision:

• Daniel 7:22
• Daniel 7:26-27

In Daniel 7, The saints being given judgment and possessing the kingdom, is the result of the ancient of days arriving and sitting on the throne and the court convening (daniel 7:9-10, 22, 26). This doesn't line up with the chronology of revelation 20 at all, where the saints are given thrones, and authority to judge for 1000 + years FIRST and THEN the ancient of days arrives on his thrones and the books are opened.

The following is basically a summary of my view vs your view. In the event I didn't summarize your view correctly, feel free to correct any misunderstandings of your view. The last thing I'm wanting to do is misrepresent someone's view intentionally or unintentionally.

My view:



1. Daniel 7:22 ('judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom') is not about the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.
2. It's about the earlier period in Revelation 20:4, when the saints rule and judge with Christ during the 1000 years.
3. Daniel 7:27 ('kingdom and dominion---shall be given to the people of the saints') matches the millennial reign more than the final judgment.
4. The judgment in Daniel 7:9-12 precedes the kingdom being given to the saints and corresponds more to Revelation 19:20 and 20:4, not to the final judgment scene in 20:11-15.

IOW, the 'courtroom' in Daniel 7 isn't Revelation 20:11-15, but is something that leads to the saints ruling in the millennium (20:4), IOW, an earlier judicial moment.

Daniel 7:9-10--Court convenes before saints get the kingdom (tied to Revelation 19–20:4)
Daniel 7:22---Saints receive kingdom after Beast is judged (Revelation 19–20:4)
Daniel 7:27----Parallels Revelation 20:4 (saints' millennial rule)
Books opened---Connected to Premil event (Rev 19/20:4)
Chronology----Daniel 7 and Revelation 19-20:4 are parallel in earlier judgments
-------

Your view:

1. The vision in Daniel 7:9-10 (Ancient of Days seated, books opened) is parallel to Revelation 20:11-15, where God sits on the throne and books are opened.
2. The sequence in Daniel 7 is:
a. Ancient of Days sits
b. Books opened
c. Judgment occurs
d. Saints receive the kingdom.

3. In Revelation 20, by contrast:
a. Saints rule and judge for 1000 years (v.4)
b. Then God appears and opens the books (v.11-15) --- IOW, the Great White Throne is after the saints' reign.

4. Therefore, the chronology differs: in Daniel 7, court first, saints reign. In Revelation 20, saints reign first, court/judgment follows.

IOW, Revelation 20:11-15 matches Daniel 7:9-10, not Daniel 7:22/27. The "Ancient of Days courtroom scene" is the final judgment, not the beginning of the millennial reign.

Daniel 7:9-10--Court = Great White Throne (Revelation 20:11-15)
Daniel 7:22---Saints receive kingdom after judgment scene (Revelation 20:11-15)
Daniel 7:27----Parallels post-judgment eternal reign
Books opened---Connected to final judgment of the wicked (Revelation 20:11-15)
Chronology----Daniel 7's courtroom scene matches end of Revelation, verses 11-15
--------------------

 

[Davidpt]

I would disagree that vs 13-14 are parenthetical based on the rest of the vision. The vision in Daniel 7:9-14 gives us a specific chronological order:

1. The court convenes (thrones placed, ancient of days arrives and sits on the throne, court sits, books opened)
2. The beast is slain
3. The son of man comes on the clouds and is given dominion, authority, and a kingdom

This lines up very neatly, chronologically, with the explanation of the vision in Daniel 7:26-27:

1. the court convenes
2. the little horn is destroyed
3. the saints possess the kingdom

The problem is this, though---I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame(Daniel 7:11). That event hasn't even happened yet unless you or someone else can convincingly prove otherwise. Therefore, the point being, it conflicts with verses 13-14 if those verses are meaning when Christ initially ascended to heaven 2000 years ago following His resurrection.

In verses 9-11 where are you seeing anywhere in the text that humans are also being given to the burning flame at the time? In order for verses 9-11 to match Revelation 20:11-15, the former has to record that lost humans are also given to the burning flame at the time. Except nowhere in those verses does it ever record that, not even remotely. Therefore, how can one insist that these passages in question are parallel events?

Granted, both accounts do have this in common--and the books were opened. What they don't have in common is this. Nowhere in Revelation 20:11-15 is the beast seen standing among the dead being judged and sentenced. Which then begs the question, why not if both accounts are involving the same event, the Great White throne Judgment? Equally, nowhere in Daniel 7:9-11 are lost humans seen being given to the burning flame when the beast is being given to it. Which once again begs the question, why not if both accounts are involving the same event, the Great White throne Judgment?

Not to mention, assuming verses 9-11 are meaning Revelation 20:11-15, Daniel 7:12 is then relevant to that particular context exactly how??? Shouldn't verse 12 instead be saying that the rest of the beasts were also given to the burning flame when the little horn is, if the context of verses 9-11 is Revelation 20:11-15?

Once again, per that scenario why would we need to know what happened to the rest of the beasts earlier in history, if the timing of verses 9-11 match Revelation 20:11-15? Verse 12 causes a total disconnect with verses 9-11 if the latter is involving Revelation 20:11-15. Therefore, verse 11 has to be meaning the aftermath of verse 11. And if so, no way can verses 9-11 be meaning Revelation 20:11-15 since it would be ludicrous that anyone's dominion is taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time---during the time of the Great White throne judgment(Revelation 20:11-15).