Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[Fred J]

Luke 24
26“Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

John 5
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me... 46“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

1 Corinthians 15
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

2 Timothy 3
15the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now, is the Gospel in the Torah?

Sorry, just edited my previous post, read it and get back, thank you

 

[GracePeace]

Now, is the Gospel in the Torah?

"Moses" is the author of the Torah so, yes :

Lk 24 "Beginning with Moses...", Jn 5 "Moses wrote of Me", 1 Co 15 "Christ raised from the dead on the third day according to the Scriptures", 2 Ti 3 "Scriptures... able to make you wise unto salvation through faith in Christ"

 

[Fred J]

"Moses" is the author of the Torah so, yes :

Lk 24 "Beginning with Moses...", Jn 5 "Moses wrote of Me",

Thank you, quote scriptures, that which Moses wrote about Jesus

 

[Fred J]

Go ahead and quote the scriptures which Moses wrote about Jesus as to verify your testimony.

And on the other hand for the record, it is about Jesus, Moses wrote and not about the Gospel.

 

[Fred J]

Readers,

While waiting for 'GracePeace', again as i've posted earlier, i can only remember in Genesis and Deuteronomy Moses wrote about Jesus to begin with.

How about any of you?

Thank you

 

[GracePeace]

Thank you, quote scriptures, that which Moses wrote about Jesus

Already quoted Jesus asserting it--He, for instance, says the Bronze Serpent episode (recorded in Numbers, which is the 4th Book of the "Torah", or "Pentateuch") was actually about Him, and about how He would die on the Cross, and if we look to Him with faith in His Name, God will save us from the "fatal bites" of the sinful flesh, because the sinful flesh is "brought to nothing" (Ro 6).

As far as why the disciples wouldn't have understood it, that is bc God kept it a mystery in ages past (Ro 16), and we know the disciples lacked understanding of Scripture, and sayings of Jesus, but, later, after Christ's death and resurrection, and, specifically, after the Spirit ("I have many things to tell you but you can't bear them now, but when the Spirit of Truth comes He will guide you into all the truth") was given, they began to understand those things.

 

[Fred J]

Moses did write about Jesus in the Spirit in his books, but he nor the Jews did not know who truly this person was.

Scripture like the one in the burning bush and the one who showed Moses His back.

One of the three angels that visited Abraham and the angel who wrestle with Jacob.

The full armored angel warrior who lead Joshua, Caleb and the Israelites to war their enemy at hand.

What else?

 

[Fred J]

Already quoted Jesus asserting it--He, for instance, says the Bronze Serpent episode (recorded in Numbers, which is the 4th Book of the "Torah", or "Pentateuch") was actually about Him, and about how He would die on the Cross, and if we look to Him with faith in His Name, God will save us from the "fatal bites" of the sinful flesh, because the sinful flesh is "brought to nothing" (Ro 6).

As far as why the disciples wouldn't have understood it, that is bc God kept it a mystery in ages past (Ro 16), and we know the disciples lacked understanding of Scripture, and sayings of Jesus, but, later, after Christ's death and resurrection, and, specifically, after the Spirit ("I have many things to tell you but you can't bear them now, but when the Spirit of Truth comes He will guide you into all the truth") was given, they began to understand those things.

But Moses did not write that 'Jesus' is the representation of that Bronze Serpent, but only in the Gospel is written about the resemblance for salvation.

Let's focus about 'Jesus' the person mentioned in the Torah by Moses, and not the Gospel teaching and revelation which is not in the Torah, thank you.

 

[GracePeace]

But Moses did not write that 'Jesus' is the representation of that Bronze Serpent, but only in the Gospel is written about the resemblance for salvation.

You don't think the Spirit, Who inspired the Scriptures, knew that Jesus was going to be crucified, and, so, intentionally inspired those words (eg, about the Bronze Serpent) in order to foreshadow Jesus, and the Gospel, despite the fact that the humans He was using to write the Scriptures did not understand (which I've already granted, having cited Ro 16 "the Gospel was kept a mystery")?

Let's focus about 'Jesus' the person mentioned in the Torah by Moses, and not the Gospel teaching and revelation which is not in the Torah, thank you.

You can do as you please--it has nothing to do with me.

 

[shepherdsword]

Believe INTO??? or just believe religiously?

I just hope my faith is the kind that pleases God

The faith OF Christ is miraculous in every way. The smallest amount of HIS faith gets us translated to walk in the kingdom realm in Zion. Is that the faith you say we must have? Peter walked on water by the faith OF Christ.

But people here think God is ok with a sinful holiness and all you need to do is believe in (not into) Jesus, like the demons do.

Faith is very very rare now.

Lk 18:8I ... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

I speak of faith and no one seems to understand what the faith OF Christ is. Before faith came..Paul says...we were all shut up under the law, walking as mere humans under the influence of sin.

But Jesus came to set us free from the flesh and the pull of this world. In Him is no sin. My voice is silenced at every opportunity. But the truth will shine like a bright morning day in the hearts of those who hear the words of God and actually believe them (not just believe in them)

if I sound nit-picky it's due to the fact that the flesh corrupts the truth by nit-picking it's way from the truth into lies. In order to draw attention to the heresy it will sound like I'm nit-picking ....what has already been nit-picked away.

The scriptures definitely speak of a more powerful walk. When Jesus tells someone to "go and sin no more" did he mean it? or was he saying "I am telling you to sin no more but I know you can't really stop" I think people shouldn't be so quick to judge and condemn. We all need to consider the fact that our wisdom and knowledge are not infallible and we too can be deceived.

 

[Fred J]

You don't think the Spirit, Who inspired the Scriptures, knew that Jesus was going to be crucified, and, so, intentionally inspired those words (eg, about the Bronze Serpent) in order to foreshadow Jesus, and the Gospel, despite the fact that the humans He was using to write the Scriptures did not understand (which I've already granted, having cited Ro 16 "the Gospel was kept a mystery")?

Well, the Spirit did not mention to Moses nor he wrote in the Torah, that the Bronze Serpent resembles the Prophet to come, and who will be likewise crucified on the Cross.

You can do as you please--it has nothing to do with me.

Do as i please? And we're not talking about you.

Discussion is according to the Tread topic and your reply with quote that Jesus said Moses wrote about Him.

So politely i asked where in the Torah, the 5 books of Moses, did Moses write about Jesus or the Prophet to come?

Moses by the Spirit unknowingly, prophetically did write about a significant figure in his 5 books, as this significant figure was a mystery.

As i myself read His 5 books repeatedly, and kept on stumbling upon this significant figure and character Moses wrote.

Compared to other spirits or angels, men, Lord and God mentioned, such a significant figure and character caused a 'stir' in my spirit.

To conclude, without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost, and disciple in the New Testament as well, like Moses and the Israelites then, i myself will be 'veiled' likewise in carnality.

Unable to 'perceive' that such a significant figure and character Moses wrote about is the Messiah. The Word in the beginning and with Adam and Eve to Israel in the Old.

Jesus in these last days whom GOD revealed and spoke through Him, the Son of GOD, the Passover Lamb which takes away the sins of the world.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

One thing i would 'disagree', is that the Gospel is not in the Torah, the 5 books of Moses including the Law.

But the retaliation of the Son of Eve and the Prophet among the Israelite brethren to come, is mentioned.

Where all Israel must listen to this Prophet, if not GOD will require of them and will have to face the consequences.

More about that Prophet or the Messiah and the New Covenant GOD will make with the Israelites in the future, is further in the books of the Prophets.

That's why Jesus mentioned in the Gospel separating both, 'the Law and the Prophets' until they are 'fulfilled'.

For one if the Gospel was, the disciples will not be perplexed, confused and disturbed by the teaching of Christ and His actions.

Which does not resonate nor accustomed to what Moses, the Prophets and the leaders of Israel taught them and lived by for generation after generation.

John 1:
17. For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Example, the Law teaches, annihilate your enemies, but the Gospel, love your enemies.

Give them the next 'cheek', make peace, bless them, do good to them and pray for them, even to the point they kill you.

For then you are truly the sons of the MOST HIGH GOD who art in Heaven and in secret.

(Remember in the Old Testament, the first king of Israel, Saul, who in compassion speared the life of a pagan king instead of killing him as the order and will of GOD? And he lost his kingship and non of his family could take the throne, and all of them were killed, except Jonathan?)

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ, Lord and God the Son

Hey brother...but the gospel IS in the Torah as the "second law"...the Devarim. Check out the video. The Torah was the bible of the early Christians.

Peace

 

[Episkopos]

I just hope my faith is the kind that pleases God

Amen. Or is at least acceptable. That's the right way of seeing things...in humility.

Lk 18:8I ... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?


The scriptures definitely speak of a more powerful walk. When Jesus tells someone to "go and sin no more" did he mean it? or was he saying "I am telling you to sin no more but I know you can't really stop" I think people shouldn't be so quick to judge and condemn. We all need to consider the fact that our wisdom and knowledge are not infallible and we too can be deceived.

Amen. Wise words.

 

[Episkopos]

Here is the conclusion of the matter...

Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be you shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. Zeph 2:3

 

[GracePeace]

Well, the Spirit did not mention to Moses nor he wrote in the Torah, that the Bronze Serpent resembles the Prophet to come, and who will be likewise crucified on the Cross.

That was already granted--Moses was not privy to what he was writing, just as the High Priest was not privy to the fact that he was prophesying that Jesus would die as the lamb of God to take away the sins of the world, as an atonement for the children of God. Even though he DID correctly say the words (Jesus would die for the nation), having been moved upon by the Spirit, his mind was not privy to the truth which he was inspired to speak.

John 11
49But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all.
50Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.
51He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,
52and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

This is a normative way God operates--it is unexceptional and uncontroversial.

Do as i please? And we're not talking about you.

Discussion is according to the Tread topic and your reply with quote that Jesus said Moses wrote about Him.

So politely i asked where in the Torah, the 5 books of Moses, did Moses write about Jesus or the Prophet to come?

Moses by the Spirit unknowingly, prophetically did write about a significant figure in his 5 books, as this significant figure was a mystery.

As i myself read His 5 books repeatedly, and kept on stumbling upon this significant figure and character Moses wrote.

Compared to other spirits or angels, men, Lord and God mentioned, such a significant figure and character caused a 'stir' in my spirit.

To conclude, without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost, and disciple in the New Testament as well, like Moses and the Israelites then, i myself will be 'veiled' likewise in carnality.

Unable to 'perceive' that such a significant figure and character Moses wrote about is the Messiah. The Word in the beginning and with Adam and Eve to Israel in the Old.

Jesus in these last days whom GOD revealed and spoke through Him, the Son of GOD, the Passover Lamb which takes away the sins of the world.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

Our conclusions differ, so I don't mind if you feel free to take the view you believe is correct, and I will take the view I believe is justifiable.

Thanks

 

[Lizbeth]

Define saved

Sure, no problem Epi - after you kindly address the point I was making about our old man having been crucified with Christ and our new man having been made in the image of Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Once again you cherrypick and ignore the full council of God

Now notice these verses carefully:

Jas 2:21-24
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We need to read James 2:21-24 in context. In James 2:14 we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

 

[Episkopos]

Sure, no problem Epi - after you kindly address the point I was making about our old man having been crucified with Christ and our new man having been made in the image of Christ.

You have a positional theology...which isn't borne out in reality in most cases. You speak of truth in a figurative way...according to word groupings....but Paul said he didn't preach the gospel in word but in POWER.

You have to venture out of the world of theory and into eternal reality. Why did Jesus tell His disciples to tarry in Jerusalem? Until they could formulate a positional theology to then preach that as the gospel?

I could say much more but baby steps are required where someone has fully missed the whole point of the gospel.

 

[Lizbeth]

We need to read James 2:21-24 in context. In James 2:14 we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Amen, spot on brother. And I believe this is the meaning of where James says Abraham's FAITH wrought with his works. His works proceeded from faith, not from a vacuum or from self-righteousness.

 

[Lizbeth]

You have a positional theology...which isn't borne out in reality in most cases. You speak of truth in a figurative way...according to word groupings....but Paul said he didn't preach the gospel in word but in POWER.

You have to venture out of the world of theory and into eternal reality. Why did Jesus tell His disciples to tarry in Jerusalem? Until they could formulate a positional theology to then preach that as the gospel?

I could say much more but baby steps are required where someone has fully missed the whole point of the gospel.

Well, let's hear you expound on the new man and old man Epi, how it fits into your theology.

How I read and receive it, is that it IS reality. It is the reality from which the impossible becomes possible. Without this reality, nothing that you speak of would be possible. All things HAVE been put under the feet of Jesus, but we do not yet (necessarily) SEE all things put under Him. That He must reign until all His enemies are put under His feet sounds like a contradiction too - but it isn't, it's a spiritual paradox. Can't build a building without the foundation first being in place.