GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Excellent precious friend! God's Distinctions between Prophecy and Mystery should always be
shared and duly noted (to solve the Mass Confusion!), eh? ie:
Amen.
Rapture ... soon?
- Thread starter Ronald David Bruno
- Start date
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shared and duly noted (to solve the Mass Confusion!), eh? ie:
Amen.
Here’s a text-based timeline that lines up the major passages describing the rapture = second coming = day of the Lord. I’ll show the sequence with the Scripture references beside each step.
2. Trumpet / Command / Voice
3. Resurrection of the Dead in Christ
4. Transformation of Living Believers
5. Gathering of All Believers to Christ
6. Judgment of the Wicked
7. Renewal of Creation
Big Picture: All these passages point to one climactic day — the second coming of Christ. Believers are gathered and glorified; unbelievers judged; the present world is transformed into the new creation.
Timeline of the Second Coming / Rapture
1. Signs & Sudden Revelation- Christ appears in glory, visible to all.
- Matt 24:30; 2 Thess 1:7; Rev 19:11–16
2. Trumpet / Command / Voice
- Cosmic announcement of His arrival.
- 1 Thess 4:16; 1 Cor 15:52; Matt 24:31
3. Resurrection of the Dead in Christ
- Believers who have died are raised.
- 1 Thess 4:16; 1 Cor 15:52
4. Transformation of Living Believers
- Instant change into immortal, glorified bodies.
- 1 Cor 15:51–53
5. Gathering of All Believers to Christ
- Living and resurrected saints are caught up to meet Him in the air.
- 1 Thess 4:17; Matt 24:31
6. Judgment of the Wicked
- Vengeance, destruction, exclusion from God’s presence.
- 2 Thess 1:8–9; Matt 25:31–46; Rev 20:11–15
7. Renewal of Creation
- Present heavens and earth dissolved, new heavens and new earth appear.
- 2 Pet 3:10–13; Rev 21:1
Big Picture: All these passages point to one climactic day — the second coming of Christ. Believers are gathered and glorified; unbelievers judged; the present world is transformed into the new creation.
I don't think we should gloss over the point that this guy who made the prediction was totally in error...as most of us knew he was
I have some pdf the computer created, may try to upload
Well, pretty simplistic table
It has left out the resurrection of the unjust, so I could prompt to include that.
Well, pretty simplistic table
It has left out the resurrection of the unjust, so I could prompt to include that.
You should realize that none of what you are saying here is taught in the New Testament.Actually I never thought about doing that. I might try it for an experiment. A couple of them seem smart. I might toggle the ignore button for the duration of this thread.
I was disappointed, relieved and confused. It was a cornucopia of conflicting emotions. I have two goldfish. I did not flush them. I bought them an automatic fish feeder. The like it. It's a very good unit. They are big boys. One is a Black Moor, the other is a Red Oranda.
From the latest information I have, Joshua didn't apologise. He didn't have an explanation. He is as confused as we are. It couldn't be a vision from Satan, Joshua speaks Jesus' Name interchangeably with God's.
It might be possible at this time, that Joshua does not understand what is happening. I was thinking of letting your post be the last, congratulations on a popular thread. 2000 views! But for you and the other people that are sincerely following along with the thread, there has been some new information to consider. Like how you were saying Joshua seemed like a nice, genuine Christian who knew his scriptures, I agree. He always seemed sincere. He acted as someone who had seen a vision from God, as crazy as that seems. Many are still in agreement with this, even at this time. It's perplexing. He still insists that his visions are true. Jesus told him He's coming to do the Exodus on the Feast of Trumpets 2025. He didn't give the time zone or the day or the date. We filled that in ourselves. Mike at Medic said: "Jerusalem is God's clock. We assumed it.
I'm sure you guys have had enough. But there's a couple things stuck in my mind. During this deal I came across someone saying the Feast of Trumpets was on October 7. I googled around and found that was the Day of Atonement. Then I forgot about it. I dismissed it. Even when all this began, that's all I do is search for the date on the net. And then I go with that like everyone else. I assume the Jews must know when their Feast Days are taking place. Or do they? There's been a lot of water pass under the calendrical bridge since the instructions were given in Leviticus.
The only Feast I have ever investigated, and done the Biblical count for with my own two eyes, was Passover. I don't really care to dispute what anyone else thinks about it, I remember discussing it with buddy here over multiple threads and years about 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth, and it didn't produce any good fruit. But what I know for certainty, and what is also confirmed by the two best Bible calendrical guys who have ever lived, is that there were two Passovers being observed during Passion week.
Jesus and His disciples were observing conjunction on a Thursday Passover beginning on Wednesday at sundown, the Passover of the Jews was on Friday at sundown. The Jews were rushing to bury Jesus before sundown when their erroneous Passover would begin, Jesus already ate His true Passover a day earlier. Jesus was Crucified on Friday April 7. 30AD. That also happened to be a full moon. Jesus' Last Supper is counted from the new moon of the preceding month.
Taking that into account, I'm never really that impressed with those scenes yesterday of the Orthodox Jews pacing back and forth outside their temple wall during the Feast of Trumpets. If the Jews in Jesus' time were wrong about the correct date for Passover, could the Jews of our time be off with the Feast of Trumpets 2025? Check it out..
Maybe with that in mind, have a look and see what you think of this video. This guy thinks that the Feast of Trumpets is actually going to start on October 7 this year. I already searched and do not find a solar eclipse in 30AD, but I still found it interesting that there was a full moon on Good Friday. We might find out more as we go. If this is true, it would go a long way to explain Joshua's demeanor at this time.
It would be funny if Joshua is Still Right. This video I post for is informational purposes only. I do not promote, or intend to teach calendrical doctrine. Do your own due diligence.
I have not read any such things related to rapture or the second coming in the scriptures.
Nothing related to any Jewish festivals-feast days or any related things are taught by Christ or the apostles.
You are going it alone, apart from the scriptures.
Joshua is still right even when he is wrong?
Now you know how false prophets adapt themselves when their prophecies don't pan out.
And the deluded ones keep on with the delusion.
Boggles the mind.
1 Kings 18:40
And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal! Do not let one of them escape!” So they seized them; and Elijah brought them down to the Brook Kishon and executed them there.
False prophets never have good endings in the scriptures.
Now you know how false prophets adapt themselves when their prophecies don't pan out.
And the deluded ones keep on with the delusion.
Boggles the mind.
1 Kings 18:40
And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal! Do not let one of them escape!” So they seized them; and Elijah brought them down to the Brook Kishon and executed them there.
False prophets never have good endings in the scriptures.
Ohhhh, yes, I'm well aware of the different takes on Paul's words there. <smile>
Yes... Well, except for the ones who are still alive on that day, of course.
Disagree... How you would back this up might be interesting. But we will go out to meet Him in His return and welcome Him in, as a King's loyal subjects do, as is the case in several instances in Scripture, most notably Christ's triumphal entry on Palm Sunday...
Hmmm, well, in a certain sense, yes. Our God is a consuming fire... <smile>
Oh, but I appreciate your effort at teaching me, Scott. You know, as opposed to merely reasoning with me. See what I did there? <smile>
Chat GPT... LOL!
Grace and peace to you.
Why certainly we are gathered by angels to be with Christ, we don't just float up into the air like a balloon.
I don't see what else this can mean, here is described the 'rapture event'
Mark 13:26-28
New King James Version
26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [a]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here are the wicked and righteous gathered by angels into each side, as a sorting out process.
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Dragnet
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I remember when I was a child, sometimes the house would seem "too quiet" and I would run find my family to make sure they hadn't been raptured and I was left behind.
Even in the OT times, angels carried the just into Abraham's bosum. It is part of their job description, they minister good things to those who will inherit salvation.
Luke 16:22
So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:22
So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
I quite often do.
<chuckles>
Hmmm, disagree on at least two counts:
- As has been said, first by Augustine, the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed
- God said all He meant to say, and meant all that He said. There is no new revelation from God. As the writer of Hebrews puts it, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world" (Hebrews 1:1-2).
Before about 1830. Right. <smile>
Right, by Terence Trent D'Arby. Oh, wait, no, sorry; John Nelson Darby. Right. Although... "revealed"... <smile>
Terence Trent D'Arby... I guess I'm dating myself with that reference. Haven't thought about him in decades... <chuckles>
Grace and peace!
Of angels this is taught to us.
Hebrews 1
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Hebrews 1
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A [f]scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, so this is how you understand those who are still alive at the Lord's coming being "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air," that angels will have to swoop down and gather us up in their arms? Interesting... You know, Scott, if you don't see it in the text ~ and I mean actually see it in the text; yes, I see your Mark and Matthew 13 citations below ~ I would discourage any kind speculation regarding how it might happen.
So you think; I get it.
Right, "gather together." That can be done in different ways...
Grace and peace to you.
The gathering (known as rapture) includes all the people of God, those still living on earth, and those who are in heaven.
They are all brought together to be with Christ, above the earth in the air, and witness what is about to take place, which is the judgment day in wrath.
Christ says the angels gather His elect from heaven and earth to meet Him in the air, what could be simpler than that.
Mark 13 and 1 Thess 4, are both teaching us about the Day He returns.
And this fits into the Mathew 25 judgement teaching when He comes.
He comes with the holy angels, all the saints are there and all the wicked are there.
Everyone is brought to the gathering by angels.
Since this is judgement day and HEAVEN AND EARTH have passed away, and it says no place is found for them, people can't walk there on their own very well. Only God and the angels know the way to this place.
These are the same Judgment Day, exposing different aspects of this Day.
Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Rev 20
The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Angels job here is to cast the wicked into the fire
Interesting job, how would you like to do that?
Matthew 13
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
What do reapers do?
And the reapers are the angels, well it is right here in Christ's words.
They do the gathering of souls.
Matthew 13
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’
29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
Angels job here is to cast the wicked into the fire
Interesting job, how would you like to do that?
Matthew 13
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
What do reapers do?
And the reapers are the angels, well it is right here in Christ's words.
They do the gathering of souls.
Matthew 13
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’
29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
Tee hee!
A nice pithy saying but it's not Scripture. You are using it as a way to avoid the meaning of the musterion.
And you are assuming that God said everything He had to say to "our fathers, by the prophets".
This is your assumption by which you argue against the musterion. Which is by definition new revelation. Regardless of assumptions and pithy sayings.
Much love!
Dave Watchman
Active Member
I was trying to show how the Old Time Jews had Passover wrong before. So if they had an appointed time wrong then, they might have this one wrong now.
It's not that far fetched. You must have heard by now how some of the Orthodox Greeks celebrate Easter on a different calendar. The video guy, Bro Scott, is completely right about the Julian calendar, which is still in use in most Orthodox churches and by Berbers in North Africa. 10/6 Gregorian = 9/23 Julian; 10/7 Gregorian = 9/24 Julian.
I don't know. Sometimes these forums can be virtual think tanks when people work together. I don't really know who the video guy is. I don't know if I trust him unequivocally. I don't know if it maters. I was talking to a guy that I did know, who I met on the forums, Dr. Richard Ruhling from Loma Linda University. He was talking about the law of first usage. Where you read a Bible word, then go to the first place in the Bible where the word was used for greater clarification.
In the video the guy was mentioning Psalm 81:3
"Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day.
Where the word for "full moon" is 3677. kese or keseh
In KJV.
"But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Goodman of the House.
The first time that phrase is used in the KJV, is in Proverbs 7:19:
"For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey,
He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
The word for the "day appointed", is the same for "full moon" in Psalms 81, 3677. kese or keseh.
"For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey,
He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the full moon.
"He took with him a bag of money and will not return till the moon is full.”
The idea at the time was the "Goodman of the House was Jesus, He would return when the moon was full.
It might be a stretch. But based on the magnitude of the event we're talking about, a couple weeks isn't too long. I'll think I would keep an eye on it for a bit. It's like I'm thinking about it even while typing. This would explain Joshua's current perplexed demeanor, that confused look on his face now after nothing happened.
I'm also sort of impressed with all the people still trying to find an explanation for all of it. It seems like a lot of people have been impacted by this.
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Right, but true about Scripture it is. Oh wait, Scripture does proclaim itself true. Several times, actually. <smile>
Nah. I say you're making the mysteries of God into something they are not. I respect your opinion, though.
Hmmmm... No, I'm assuming or even saying nothing of the sort. What I'm saying is really two things:
1. God said all that was necessary to say to them, the Israelites of old, our fathers, through/by the prophets. And it was all about the coming Savior; Jesus even said that Moses and the prophets wrote about Him; see John 5:46. We can also see this in Jesus's conversation with the two men on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24... "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." And this is how we should read the Old Testament today... For example, all of Jesus's "but I tell you" statements concerning the law... Also, in all the Old Testament stories we see representations... "shadows" and "types," we call them... of Jesus, sometimes people, sometimes even inanimate objects, like Noah's ark and the manna in the wilderness. Jesus did say, after all, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He Who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world... I am the bread of life; whoever comes to Me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in Me shall never thirst... I am the bread of life... This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die..." (John 6). Yeah, I mean, if you don't see Jesus on every page of the Old Testament, then, well...
2. I'm further saying that Jesus fully fleshed out, during His life on earth, everything God had said to our fathers of old through the prophets. And this is how God has spoken to us in these last days. And this was absolutely necessary, for our sake.
But that's all. I love the words of one of my favorite all-time hymns, How Firm a Foundation: "What more can He say than to you He has said, to you, who for refuge, to Jesus have fled?" There is no new revelation.
No, it's my exposing your misapplication of the mysteries of God. I'm painting this with a broad brushstroke, maybe, but it can really be summed up in what God says through Isaiah (55), that "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways... For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." I'm not sure if you're actually doing this or not, but I submit to you that we should never made "the musterion" out to be something that cannot possibly be understood.
Absolutely not. We disagree on this. <smile>
No assumptions. But even "pithy sayings" can be helpful from time to time. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
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