Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture

[Cross8527]

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

 

[Wish-it]

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

And now: pre wrath or post trib?

 

[Taken]

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

That verse is about Jesus’ return to EARTH.

Rapture is about those IN Christ rising up FROM the Earth to meet the Lord in the clouds.

Two separate events.

 

[soberxp]

That verse is about Jesus’ return to EARTH.

Rapture is about those IN Christ rising up FROM the Earth to meet the Lord in the clouds.

Two separate events.

Do you think that the mind of the body and the soul are the same event or two different events?

 

[Taken]

Do you think that the mind of the body and the soul are the same event or two different events?

The mind, brain, is a body part.
The mind knows not all things.
The mind can knowingly deceive, lie.
The mind change positions.
The mind can logically conclude beliefs.
The body’s life is Blood.

The soul, is (a record keeping spiritual thing, for lack of better explanation, regarding a spiritual thing that belongs to God)
Science may use the term “sub-conscience” to describe the purpose / effect of the soul.
It belongs to God.
It is given a mans born body, by God.
It has memory of all things of the minds thoughts and the body’s physical feelings.
It’s life is Gods breath
It departs a dying / dead body.
It continues to live as long as Gods breath remains in the soul.
It is the soul that may or may not ultimately be saved (restored).

The natural spirit of man is what the man truly believes in his heart (regardless of what his mind, thinks, believes, says)
It is the Heart that receives the “Seed of God”, birthing the man a new spirit (Quickened / born again).

Mankind…three aspects of One man…
Body, soul, spirit…

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[soberxp]

The mind, brain, is a body part.
The mind knows not all things.
The mind can knowingly deceive, lie.
The mind change positions.
The mind can logically conclude beliefs.
The body’s life is Blood.

The soul, is (a record keeping spiritual thing, for lack of better explanation, regarding a spiritual thing that belongs to God)
Science may use the term “sub-conscience” to describe the purpose / effect of the soul.
It belongs to God.
It is given a mans born body, by God.
It has memory of all things of the minds thoughts and the body’s physical feelings.
It’s life is Gods breath
It departs a dying / dead body.
It continues to live as long as Gods breath remains in the soul.
It is the soul that may or may not ultimately be saved (restored).

The natural spirit of man is what the man truly believes in his heart (regardless of what his mind, thinks, believes, says)
It is the Heart that receives the “Seed of God”, birthing the man a new spirit (Quickened / born again).

Mankind…three aspects of One man…
Body, soul, spirit…

Glory to God,
Taken

.Are you sure your soul is still here?Instead of being carried away by rapture.

24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[Taken]

.Are you sure your soul is still here?Instead of being carried away by rapture.

I didn’t say the soul was “here”.
I said the soul departs the body.
The body remain on earth.
The living departed soul …
Saved? Escorted to heaven.
Unsaved? Sent to hell.

Each waits for Judgement Day…
Waiting in peace and beauty.
Or
Waiting in stench, discomfort and darkness.

24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

What about that?

 

[soberxp]

What about that?

24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left


My understanding is that one is the soul and the other is the body.

matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

heart and mind is the body

But soul is not.

Spirit usually only represents what comes from God, not from us.

 

[Taken]

24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left


My understanding is that one is the soul and the other is the body.

matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

heart and mind is the body

But soul is not.

Spirit usually only represents what comes from God, not from us.

Body is dust out of its own created habitat; Earth.
The elements IN the Earth sustain the body( water, minerals, herbs, etc)

God forms the body
God gives the formed body a soul.
The mans Heart contains the man’s truths.
The mans mind logically concludes it’s thoughts AND is naturally against God.

Mankind has a growth evolving, aging, maturing, cycle, choosing what to believe in his mind, his heart.

It is the hearts belief that ultimately reveals a man will or will not be saved.

 

[SavedInHim]

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

It's impossible to explain this passage away. I've seen a flimsy attempt by some who say the "restrainer" is the saints and "taken out of the way" means the rapture. There are many reasons why that's impossible. This passage is a death blow to pretrib rapture.

 

[Cross8527]

It's impossible to explain this passage away. I've seen a flimsy attempt by some who say the "restrainer" is the saints and "taken out of the way" means the rapture. There are many reasons why that's impossible. This passage is a death blow to pretrib rapture.

The thing is I used to be a pre trib rapture believer but it was after doing more research in the timing and order of things that I learned to be more open to a different perspective
But not many reach this point one must be willing to lay down what they thought they knew in order to learn the truth

 

[Cross8527]

And now: pre wrath or post trib?

I believe a prewrath doctrine is more likely

 

[Cross8527]

That verse is about Jesus’ return to EARTH.

Rapture is about those IN Christ rising up FROM the Earth to meet the Lord in the clouds.

Two separate events.

How are they two seperate events? where does the scriptures signify that?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

why I believe in pre-trib rapture?:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

Part 9 of 17-Part prayerful / Careful Rightly Divided Bible study is found here:

God's Removal Of His Body!

Amen.

 

[Taken]

How are they two seperate events? where does the scriptures signify that?

One is the Saved IN Christ being risen up off the Earth to meet the Lord in the Air.

Because Wrath Shall be coming down from Heaven upon the whole Earth.

Later the Lord Jesus With Power Shall Return to Earth and claim His Earthly Kingdom.

Wrath for those IN Christ? No.
Those IN Christ, With the Lord wherever He Goes, Yes.

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us (the Saved) to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 6:
Seals opened…
Rev 6:
result of sealed opened.
Rev 6:
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 12:
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 16:
[1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 19:
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 20:
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Cross8527]

One is the Saved IN Christ being risen up off the Earth to meet the Lord in the Air.

Because Wrath Shall be coming down from Heaven upon the whole Earth.

Later the Lord Jesus With Power Shall Return to Earth and claim His Earthly Kingdom.

Wrath for those IN Christ? No.
Those IN Christ, With the Lord wherever He Goes, Yes.

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us (the Saved) to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 6:
Seals opened…
Rev 6:
result of sealed opened.
Rev 6:
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 12:
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Rev 16:
[1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 19:
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 20:
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Well you make a good case better than most I have discussed with, So maybe I was wrong it would certainly be great if I was because I know when the tribulation begins it will be worse than any time in human history and honestly with my health issues if I don't take the mark of the beast I will die

 

[shepherdsword]

It is because of this verse here

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but if it was true then what does this verse mean then?

"Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture"

Because it's not in the bible.

 

[Cross8527]

"Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture"

Because it's not in the bible.

Well it depends on how you look at the order of events in scripture because if you search for a pretrib rapture in scripture you can find it perception changes how we understand scripture the issue with this method is that it can mislead one to believe something that isn't true

If one goes into scripture with their beliefs already set in stone then that is all they will see

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you think that the mind of the body and the soul are the same event or two different events?

The soul and the body are not an event.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well it depends on how you look at the order of events in scripture because if you search for a pretrib rapture in scripture you can find it perception changes how we understand scripture the issue with this method is that it can mislead one to believe something that isn't true

If one goes into scripture with their beliefs already set in stone then that is all they will see

Hi Cross
I agree with @shepherdsword

I don't find a rapture anywhere in scripture.

But I'm not too well versed on this topic so I won't say too much.

This is what I know:
Jesus is coming back ONE TIME.