Was the Cross Always Understood?

[Nancy]

"So can we honestly say “everyone before the cross understood it the same way we do today”?
No—they didn’t."

Hello Before There Was,
I am just now coming across this thread, welcome here BTW.
I do believe that the gospel, at least to me, is all about the cross and, those before the cross understood that they were looking forward to their Messiah, as we look back...their faith saved them IMHO.
I hope you will like it here.
Nancy

 

[BreadOfLife]

According to the RCC, Jesus is still angry, allegedly needing Mary to calm Him down, as unbelievable as that is...

BTW

This is a complete and total LIE.
Where did you get this nonsense?

Proof positive that ignorant abti-Cathoics will pull anythig out of their nether-regions and declare it as "fact" - if they think they can get away with it . . .

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The heresy of OSAS well explained.

Well, if you had anything of substance besides mere antagonistic criticism to prove otherwise, I'm sure you would have presented it. The silence speaks for itself...

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Yes.......works do not earn salvation, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t need to qualify for it by how we live the truth of the Bible’s teachings.
Israel had detailed laws written for their instruction but failed time and again to keep them. Our actions speak louder than our words. In pre-Israelites times, men of faith still had Gods laws and commands to follow, though not in such detail.

If you would, please explain how you see any difference between qualification-based salvation and works-based salvation? Are you saying that one can lose his or her salvation if not maintained within the subjective confines of qualification? What exactly do you mean when dredging up the term "qualify" if not FOR salvation? This is very confusing.

Those chosen for a role in heaven do have an inordinate desire to “see that inheritance”....but there are others who will share a different inheritance...one that God purposed for the human race at the very beginning. Everlasting life in paradise on earth.

In a manner of speaking, I agree with you here, but our being on the role call in Heavenly places who are in Christ is absolutely established, which includes all of us here within the dispensation of grace who are in Christ, otherwise known as the body of Christ.

If God allowed rebellion to derail his first purpose permanently, he would be a failure. (Isa 55:11) He will see his first purpose carried out to its completion, despite the detour.

As you indicated with your use of Isaiah, there's no such thing as anyone foiling the Lord's plans. Satan couldn't do it, and so mankind absolutely cannot do it.

Rev 21: 2-4 shows us that the human race also have a share in that inheritance as beneficiaries of the covenant Christ made with his “saints”, “for a Kingdom”. Some are chosen for a role in that Kingdom as rulers and priests with Christ (Rev 20:6) whilst others will benefit from their rulership by enjoying the best government that humans on earth have ever had.
Redemption gives them back the life that Adam took away from them. That wasn’t in heaven.

Nope. The body of Christ will not be partakers of the Kingdom promised only to Israel...with Israel sitting as the leaders of the World under the Kingship of Christ Jesus. I am Israeli, and not even I will take part in that kingdom since it is not meant for those of us in Christ within this dispensation of grace as the body of Christ.

Disobedience has been at the base of all human error......the one thing that God has asked of all his intelligent creation is simply to obey his instructions if we want the life that he is offering.

Adherence to the Law and ordinances was and will be for Israel and those who joined/join with Israel in the future.

Disobedience got us into this mess....and our obedience will get us out of it because Christ laid the basis for our sins to be forgiven, and for God’s first purpose for this earth to come to its successful conclusion.

We are indeed forgiven, but obedience to what? The Law of Moses? The ten commandments? How about Holy Spirit within?

The latter is the correct answer...1 John 2:27.

It requires something of us......anything worthwhile always does.

That's what the enemy of our souls wants us to believe, as if the Blood of Christ wasn't sufficient to save us to the uttermost:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

We is who? Paul was speaking of the body of Christ, even those who fall away into disbelief, Christ will remain faithful and none will be lost nor plucked from His Hand. Those of that crowd will not have any reward in the heavenlies perhaps, but that's on them. Not a concern to us.

BTW

 

[Grailhunter]

Well, if you had anything of substance besides mere antagonistic criticism to prove otherwise, I'm sure you would have presented it. The silence speaks for itself...

BTW

LOL

 

[BeforeThereWas]

There are a lot heretics on Christian forums. I don’t know what they are doing here? They call themselves Christians but is a heretic a Christian? OSAS is religious belief of the devil, that serves the devil souls. If you preach OSAS you are the devil’s messenger.

Your confusion seems to be along the line of an alleged loss of salvation. That is indeed of the devil. He wants Christians to believe that the Blood of Christ wasn't sufficient, and is therefore in need of our works and self-effort to compete us in His gift of salvation and His bestowed GRACE.

Grace is unmerited favor, and yet you seem to espouse the idea of that we must earn merited favor through our efforts.

Yes, we can all clearly see the devils handiwork in doctrinal mention in this thread.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

LOL

Thanks for proving my point.

BTW

 

[Grailhunter]

Your confusion seems to be along the line of an alleged loss of salvation. That is indeed of the devil. He wants Christians to believe that the Blood of Christ wasn't sufficient, and is therefore in need of our works and self-effort to compete us in His gift of salvation and His bestowed GRACE.

Grace is unmerited favor, and yet you seem to espouse the idea of that we must earn merited favor through our efforts.

Yes, we can all clearly see the devils handiwork in doctrinal mention in this thread.

BTW

Grace is not a license to sin...
2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

"So can we honestly say “everyone before the cross understood it the same way we do today”?
No—they didn’t."

Hello Before There Was,
I am just now coming across this thread, welcome here BTW.
I do believe that the gospel, at least to me, is all about the cross and, those before the cross understood that they were looking forward to their Messiah, as we look back...their faith saved them IMHO.
I hope you will like it here.
Nancy

The Messiah was meant only for Israel, not Gentiles. Rightly dividing the word of truth clarifies this to the Bible student. As an Israeli, then, I hope you can understand how strange it is to our ears to see a Gentile laying claim to what was never promised to the world of Gentiles. Have you not read:

Matthew 15:25-28
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

She recognized that Gentiles were dogs when that middle wall of partition was still up and in place. It separated Gentiles from Israel and salvation except that Gentiles became Jews. We believing Israelis have understood this very clearly within the book you Gentiles claim to believe and call your Bible.

The bringing down of that middle wall of partition is how salvation THEN came unto the Gentiles after the decline of Israel because of her continued rejection of our Messiah:

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

So, going from being dogs to being fellow partakers of salvation in Christ Jesus should give you Protestants pause before assuming salvation had ever come to you until after that wall was brought down:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Given that salvation has come unto the Gentiles after the fall of Israel and that middle wall of partition, one would think that more Gentile Protestants would figure this out rather than continue parroting the false teachings of their false teaching pastors all these centuries.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Grace is not a license to sin...
2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Look, your tactical application of straw man arguments is not at all effective. Nobody in this forum ever stated that by grace we have license to sin.

You really need to get a grip on yourself and converse on a reasonable level that aligns with what has been said. What I spoke of was the EFFECT of sin, which does not nullify salvation. If you think sin nullifies salvation, then you too must not be saved unless you're going to sit there and tell us all that you stopped sinning. Is that what you're trying to shoot over the wall here?

BTW

 

[Grailhunter]

Look, your tactical application of straw man arguments is not at all effective. Nobody in this forum ever stated that by grace we have license to sin.

You really need to get a grip on yourself and converse on a reasonable level that aligns with what has been said. What I spoke of was the EFFECT of sin, which does not nullify salvation. If you think sin nullifies salvation, then you too must not be saved unless you're going to sit there and tell us all that you stopped sinning. Is that what you're trying to shoot over the wall here?

BTW

I just gave you scriptures….Are you arguing with God or the Bible?
Grace is not a license to sin...
2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

This is a complete and total LIE.
Where did you get this nonsense?

Proof positive that ignorant abti-Cathoics will pull anythig out of their nether-regions and declare it as "fact" - if they think they can get away with it . . .

The only "anti" flowing in my thoughts are against the false teachings themselves within the RCC system of theology about such things as the sinlessness of Mary in her birth and allegedly remaining a virgin, et al. The evolution of RCC doctrines through the centuries is testament enough to the falsehoods therein. As an Israeli, I'm simply observing these facts and many more that happen to align with many Protestant beliefs about the same optic. I don't have you personally, but I do hate falsehoods.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I just gave you scriptures….Are you arguing with God or the Bible?
Grace is not a license to sin...
2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

The problem with your use of scripture is in your failure to rightly divide the word of truth. Until you do that, the massive confusions in your use of scripture will only poison the wells of discussion as was added to by your trying to lay a foundation of lies about what I said.

BTW

 

[Grailhunter]

The problem with your use of scripture is in your failure to rightly divide the word of truth. Until you do that, the massive confusions in your use of scripture will only poison the wells of discussion as was added to by your trying to lay a foundation of lies about what I said.

BTW

I just gave you scriptures….Are you arguing with God or the Bible?
Grace is not a license to sin...
2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[Jack]

Was the Cross Always Understood?​

It's all about the Blood!

 

[Deleted member 26788]

thank the RCC for the cross. by rights it should be a null issue . consider

Exodus 20:4-6
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them;

for some obscure reason that does not seam to matter .....weird ​

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you would, please explain how you see any difference between qualification-based salvation and works-based salvation? Are you saying that one can lose his or her salvation if not maintained within the subjective confines of qualification? What exactly do you mean when dredging up the term "qualify" if not FOR salvation? This is very confusing.

What is confusing about having to live the life that Jesus set the example for?

1 Peter 2:21-25….ESV…
“For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.”

In order to “follow [Christ’s] steps” we are encouraged to follow his example in the way we live our life.
Do you see a license there to do as we please….? Did Jesus? Absolutely not…..but he did the will of his Father in all things, showing us that salvation needs qualifications…we cannot be willful sinners and take Christ’s sacrifice for granted just because we “believe”.

1 Cor 6:9-10…
“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

These are the DISqualifications.…there is no inheritance for those who practice these sins.
Being “washed clean” does not give anyone license to go and roll in the mud again. (2 Peter 2:20-22)

Why is that confusing? Just because “the Law” was put aside for Christians, doesn’t mean that everything contained in the law was no longer binding. The moral aspects of the law were re-emphasised in the teachings of the Christ. No unrighteous person will inherit the Kingdom.…plainly stated.

OSAS is a satanic lie….designed to lure people into believing that salvation requires nothing but belief.
In that case the demons are saved as well. (James 2:19-20)

In a manner of speaking, I agree with you here, but our being on the role call in Heavenly places who are in Christ is absolutely established, which includes all of us here within the dispensation of grace who are in Christ, otherwise known as the body of Christ.

Unfortunately “the body of Christ”, at this point in time, is completely dismembered and scattered all over Christendom…..and even bits of him appear in those outside of the mainstream view.

Where today is Jesus to be found giving holy spirit and oversight to his disciples……who indeed are his disciples today? Who fulfill the criteria stated by Paul in 1 Cor 1:10?
If unity and love are the identifying marks of true Christianity…..then who fits the criteria? (John 13:34-35)

As you indicated with your use of Isaiah, there's no such thing as anyone foiling the Lord's plans. Satan couldn't do it, and so mankind absolutely cannot do it.

Exactly, so in order to know what God restores in the world to come, we have to first know what we lost and how God gets it back for us. Neither corrupt humans nor wicked angels can derail his purpose for us.
What then is his purpose…..? What is to be restored and how?

Nope. The body of Christ will not be partakers of the Kingdom promised only to Israel...with Israel sitting as the leaders of the World under the Kingship of Christ Jesus. I am Israeli, and not even I will take part in that kingdom since it is not meant for those of us in Christ within this dispensation of grace as the body of Christ.

OK, so you are of the opinion that natural Israel will somehow turn around after millenniums of disobedience and unfaithfulness, to suddenly decide en masse, that Jesus was the Christ after all?

I don’t believe that the Bible says that at all…..in prophesy, Isaiah stated that only a “remnant” of natural Israel was going to be “saved”….

Paul wrote….Rom 9:27-29…
“And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” (ESV)

Where are Sodom and Gomorrah today?
A remnant did respond to Jesus and these were the first to be saved…..but not the last.
Paul spoke about a new “Israel” that God himself brought into existence for the saving of mankind and in order to fulfill his promise to Abraham….”the Israel of God” whom Paul referred to, is made up of both Jewish and Gentile disciples of Christ. (Gal 6:16)

What did John the Baptist say about trusting in lineage to Abraham?
“But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

That was a warning…..being “Jewish” was more than just family lines….God created a new “Israel” just as he created a “new Jerusalem” to fulfill his purpose.…and these were the prophesies that the Jews were familiar with.

God doesn’t care so much about lineage as he does in seeing those who follow Jesus, to be obedient like Abraham was….to obey God as he did.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Adherence to the Law and ordinances was and will be for Israel and those who joined/join with Israel in the future.

Christ “ended the law” even for those Jews who became his disciples. He became the sacrifice that all their animal offerings had failed to cover permanently…..There was no need to keep Sabbath, nor any other festival that the Jews celebrated…all disciples were one under Christ, no longer divided and alienated.

Eph 2:13-21…ESV..
“But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. . . . . .So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.”

Sorry, but natural Jews no longer have a place in God’s kingdom arrangement, en masse. (No mass conversion)
As it was in the first century, it was by individual choice that Jews came to Christ and accepted him as Messiah. Individuals to this day can make the same choice and become one with their Gentile brothers. (Gal 3:28)

We are indeed forgiven, but obedience to what? The Law of Moses? The ten commandments? How about Holy Spirit within?

The latter is the correct answer...1 John 2:27.

Who was John addressing?
In context….who was he talking about?

“Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.”
Who were the ‘Christ deniers’ in the first century…and who still deny him to this day?

“I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.“
Who was trying to deceive them? Towards the end of the first century, apostates had arisen to try and lead the Christians away into false teachings, just as the Pharisees had done to the Jews, so that in time Judaism was basically the Jewish faith….and the Christians were a threat to them.

“But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.“ (ESV)

This is addressed to the “saints”…..”the chosen ones”. Those with the “heavenly calling”. (Heb 3:1)

Holy spirit would lead them to obey all the teachings of the Christ, because no other teachings belonged.
Unfortunately, true to the warnings that had been sounded by Jesus and the apostles, a “falling away” from the truth was predicted and it happened…..but the majority accepted the man-made doctrines as truth…and Christendom was born……this is exactly what happened in Judaism. (Matt 15:7-9)

That's what the enemy of our souls wants us to believe, as if the Blood of Christ wasn't sufficient to save us to the uttermost:

Or it is exactly what you have been led to believe….that once you are “saved“ by an accurate knowledge of truth, you cannot lose your salvation…..It’s true that you cannot lose what you never had….but something is required of us in order to “prove faithful unto death”…..if Jesus said….”But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”……what is it that we must “endure” in order to be saved”?

What are we to be “faithful” to? Obviously the teachings of the Christ. If we are not faithful to Christ’s teachings, “to the end”… salvation has lost its basis…..you cannot be forgiven if you have no repentance, and no willful sinner has any part in salvation.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

In context perhaps this verse is not saying what you think it does….

“Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for:
If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself.” (ESV)

There are a few “ifs” in that passage.….which means that conditions are set….ones that must be met even if some are faithless, Christ will never be. He will make sure that every disciple has the right teachings of truth…it’s up to them then, to uphold them. (John 6:44; 65)

We is who? Paul was speaking of the body of Christ, even those who fall away into disbelief, Christ will remain faithful and none will be lost nor plucked from His Hand. Those of that crowd will not have any reward in the heavenlies perhaps, but that's on them. Not a concern to us.

I don’t think you understand what Paul was saying there either….those who “fall away into disbelief” will be on the same side as those who deny Christ.

No one can “take” or “snatch” Christ’s disciples from him by force….but they can deceive them and have them surrender to the lies…to go back to sinning again.…Jesus said we had to “endure” in faith to the end…..your salvation can be lost if you are like a pig that was bathed who decides to roll in the mud again. Christ washes you once…it’s up to you to stay clean from then on.

 

[Jack]

Romans 11:26-27
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

 

[LoveYeshua]

Hi Before
The Apostles did not put everything that happened together until Paul came on the scene.
He studied the situation for 3 years before going to the Apostles with his findings.

I fight hard on these forums for the very reason you state above.
JESUS did not teach that all we need to do is be born again to go to heaven.
This idea came about with Paul but is in keeping with what Jesus said in John 3:3 and John 3:5
§"we must be born again in order to see the Kingdom of God".

But what Jesus meant by this and what Paul mean by this is certainly not what is taught in some churches today.

However, yes, Jesus is the Savior of everyone as John stated.
"of not us only, but for the whole world."
1 John 2:2

So even though the words did not exist at the time of Noah,,,,,
Jesus is still the Savior of those that required salvation...
those with faith and obedience to God.

So, if you'd care to elaborate on what your thinking....
a person could take your OP to have different meanings.

This is mine.

peter and most likely the rest of the original disciples of Jesus did understand before Paul certainly please read;

Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? read from Luke24:13-35 for full context

also in Acts 2 Peter was already preaching the cross to jews and gentiles alike;

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto
them about three thousand souls.

Blessings