What is the state of the dead in the afterlife?

[Bladerunner]

The way you explain it sounds reasonable to me, but myself [ I like to let the Bible do most of the talking and explaining ] of any details that are beneficial. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, John 17:17, Acts 17:11, Romans 15:4

I did not give you many of the scriptures coverring what I said. However, they are there and if you follow Pro 25:2, you are
well on your way. You left out the story (not Parable) of the Rich Man and Lazarus to confirm that part of it...

 

[walter]

I did not give you many of the scriptures coverring what I said. However, they are there and if you follow Pro 25:2, you are
well on your way. You left out the story (not Parable) of the Rich Man and Lazarus to confirm that part of it...

I am going to do some praying, I will get back with you soon once I think of something beneficial to present. I think it's very hard when both sides have scriptures that seem to support both their beliefs.

 

[quietthinker]

There is nowhere in Scripture to suggest that the lake of fire (the second death) will ever be removed, because free will is still free and even sinless beings can still succumb to its abuse......Satan was not always a devil, and Adam and his wife were created without sin.....so because free will exists eternally, so the lake of fire remains for any who may in the future decide to “do their own thing”......they will not remain to corrupt others because God has already taught us about the wages of sin.....even perfect beings can abuse their free will because that is what started human beings walking down the wrong path in the first place.

The “lake of fire” is not a literal location but symbolises eternal death....a place unlike sheol/hades, from which the dead are resurrected, but a place from which no one returns.

It appears you do not understand the insurance policy AJ!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Agree. The fire is eternal as a quality of fire, not as a duration of burning.

[

It’s “the smoke” that ascends forever as a warning to others, never to tread that path again.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It appears you do not understand the insurance policy AJ!

Please enlighten me QT, as you again respond with the assumption that people “get” what you are saying....? “Insurance policy” or an “assurance policy”? Explain what you mean....

 

[quietthinker]

Please enlighten me QT, as you again respond with the assumption that people “get” what you are saying....? “Insurance policy” or an “assurance policy”? Explain what you mean....

The reality of Jesus on Earth revealed not just to mankind but to the whole watching inhabitants of the Universe the truth of the character of God. They saw in a way never before seen, the depth of what love meant. This once in eternity event will ensure and insure rebellion will never again raise its ugly head....and we (humans) will be ambassadors throughout all creation as first hand witnesses of this wonder.

 

[Jack]

Yes, the "fire" is eternal, but what is placed in the fire is destroyed, consumed, die, etc. Many place an eternal life onto the condemned, which is not biblical. Eternal life or eternal death, the wages of sin is death not life.

Your unBiblical opinion does not overrule Jesus.

"They will be tormented day and night FOREVER ..."

They don't think of the horrible character traits they place upon God's character by teaching a literal torture chamber. Imagine believing God is this horrible, shallow and unforgiving for mere mortal humans. Such an unrighteous judgment that will last forever, millions, billions, trillions of years in a literal hell while "they" live in paradise.....it's all so hypocritical.

Well, on Judgment Day you might get a chance to tell God He's "so hypocritical".

Mt 7 Narrow is the way to Life and FEW there be who find it.

BILLIONS of humans will burn in Hell FOREVER who don't believe in Hell.

 

[walter]

..

These scriptures agree with each-other. Some scriptures can be taken in two or three different ways, I have picked a perspective that agrees with the many other scriptures in the Bible.

1.In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” Gen. 3:19 NKJV
2. For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same
[ **breath/spirit ]. Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything is futile. 20 All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust. Ecc. 3:19, 20 Berean Standard Bible
3. But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Isaiah 26:19 NIV
4. “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death" Hosea 13:14 NKJV
5. When his [ *spirit/breath KJB ] departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish. Psalm 146:4
6. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. NIV Ecc. 9:5
7. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun. NIV Ecc. 9:6
8. and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit/breath returns to God who gave it. NIV Ecc. 12:7
9. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” New International Version 1 Corinthians 15:54
( Death has been swallowed up - because in the resurrection they will get everlasting life )
10. Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
11. "And I will raise them up at the last day" NIV John 6:44
12. "And you, Daniel, go rest to the end, and you shall rise in your time at the end of days." Daniel 12:13 Peshitta Holy Bible
13. "The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day." John 12:48 Holman Christian Standard Bible
14. John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
15. John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but "has crossed over from death to life". ( My perspective is these ones are in God's memory and get life.)
16. John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me "will never die". NIV
( My perspective is King David is physically dead but we know the Bible says he did not ascend to heaven Acts 2:34, David is in God's memory and will be resurrected to life, victory over death is promised to the faithful, on judgment day in the future, so if we consider the resurrection, David is only dead figuratively because we know he will be raised back to life in the future, considering these facts David "will never die".)
17. Daniel 12:2-3 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. NIV
18. 2nd Peter 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. NIV
19. Revelation 21:5 And the One sitting on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He says, "Write this, because these words are faithful and true." Berean Literal Bible
20. 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
( The Bible explains some will be with the Lord, Jesus said I go to prepare a place for you John 14:3, 17:24; Phil. 1:23, 3:14; Rev. 5:9-10, 20:6, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 This is a another subject by itself, and remember Jesus says the meek shall inherit the earth. The Bible talks about 2 resurrections and one will live forever on earth another in heaven. )


[ **Berean Standard Bible - breath/spirit - Peshitta Holy Bible ]
[ * Berean Standard Bible - spirit/breath - King James Bible ]

 

[walter]

Why does the Bible explain "you shall surely die" Genesis 2:17, "For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” Gen. 3:19 in the book of Genesis, why does the book of Genesis explain these details in the first place? Why does Genesis explain nothing about we really don't die?

 

[walter]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 that says the spirit returns to the God that gave it, that word spirit by definition means
wind/breath/spirit one detail in that scripture is the wind, breath, spirit goes back to the God who gave it, the scripture does not explain that it is a spiritual body or that we keep on living.

So this scripture does not change what is already said in the book of Genesis.

 

[Jericho]

The witch of Endor?....what is the background story, which puts the whole event in context?

Regarding the Witch of Endor, it’s true there are such things as familiar spirits. However, there are two things that could provide veracity for it actually being Samuel. One is even the woman was surprised to see Samuel. And two, the spirit accurately prophesied that Samuel and his sons would die in battle the very next day. Demons cannot predict the future. As to why God would allow it. I don’t know, but God can do whatever He wants, even bend the rules. It was also forbidden for David to eat the showbread from the tabernacle under the law, but David wasn’t reprimanded by God for doing so.

Regardless, my point wasn’t to prove if the spirit was Samuel or not. My point is that there was a belief in a life beyond the grave centuries before Greek influence. Also, would not the prohibition against contacting the dead disprove soul sleep? The dead are implied to be the souls of the once living. Why prohibit contacting the spirit of those once living if it’s not possible in the first place?

Taken literally, the parable makes no sense. Read it again.....but before you do, read also Jesus words in Luke 6:24-25....
“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your comfort. Woe to you who are now full, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who are now laughing, for you will mourn and weep. Woe to you when all people speak well of you, for this is the way their ancestors used to treat the false prophets.” (CSB)

I notice you employ a liberal use of allegory when it comes to scripture. If you want to talk about Greek influence, well, that’s where allegory comes from, not the Bible. The problem of applying allegory to Scripture is that it can be interpreted whichever way the reader likes.

A couple of points… Jesus never says that it's a parable. Usually, but not always, it will say if it's a parable or not. Second, parables don’t generally use specific names. If it were a parable, it would be the only parable in the entire Bible to use specific names of people who actually lived and talk about the afterlife. By the way, you completely glossed over my question on why Jesus would include such concepts about the afterlife if they are pagan in origin. In fact, nowhere in the Bible does it refute or condemn the concept of an immortal soul existing outside the body. Recall what scriptures tell what us where Jesus went and what he did after he died on the cross:

He descended to the lowest parts of the earth (Eph 4:8-10)
He went to the heart of the earth (Mat 12:40)
He went to paradise (Luk 23:43)
He preached to the spirits in prison (1Pe 3:18-20)

Scriptures tell us Jesus went to hell (Hades), but it also says he went to paradise. So, which is it? It seems like a contradiction unless we take the story of the rich man and Lazarus literally, and it makes the most sense.

The saved souls who died prior to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ couldn’t automatically ascend to heaven because their sins had not been atoned for. It would have been necessary for God to partition off a part of hell as a temporary paradise for the pre-Christian saints to reside. He placed a gulf between them and the lost souls, so it could not be crossed. Jesus, however, in his divinity, was able to cross the gulf, as he holds the keys of Hades and of Death (Rev 1:18). After he descended to hell, to paradise, aka Abraham’s bosom, he was able to cross the gulf to preach to the spirits in prison.

After Jesus was resurrected, what happened? The tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who died were also raised from the dead (Mat 27:52). Who were they, and where did they come from? They were the saints that were in Abraham’s bosom. After Christ ascended to heaven and shed his blood on the mercy seat, the pre-Christian saints were able to finally ascend to heaven with Christ. Thus, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is more than a parable.

 

[Jericho]

The Pharisees were spiritually “dead” to God, and hence in hades (the grave) as Jews had no belief in an immortal soul, this was not talking about souls going anywhere....it was talking about a change in status from God’s perspective....these two changed places....the beggar now occupied the position of favour with God and the rich man was “tormented in hades”.....in his spiritually dead condition. You have to be alive to suffer torment, and Jews did not believe in life after death as the pagans did. No penalty under God’s law involved torture of any kind.

This is not entirely accurate. The Jews/Israelites in the Old Testament believed when someone died, they all went to the grave (sheol). Sheol can mean grave, and it’s true, everyone’s physical body goes to the grave. However, Sheol can also mean the underworld, the abode of the dead. The picture is that while their body went to the grave, their soul went to the underworld (Abraham’s bosom). That’s why when they died, it says they were gathered to their people. The implication is not that they are merely gathered in the tomb, but they are gathered with their ancestors in the afterlife.

The Old Testament saints had a more negative or neutral attitude toward death because there was no pathway for them to ascend to heaven before Christ came (though they had the hope a pathway would be provided for them). That’s why they only speak of the grave in the Old Testament with little emphasis on the afterlife. After the resurrection of Jesus, you will notice a shift in tone in the New Testament. There is more emphasis on heaven, the afterlife, and eternal rewards. That’s because they had more revelation than the OT saints did.

that rules out a bad interpretation of that one passage of Scripture, trying to convince people that they don’t really die...death is not an immediate gateway to another life.....the Bible does not support that notion at all.

It does if you don’t allegorize Scripture. I’ll give you another example. In Revelation 6:9-11, John sees the souls who had been beheaded for their testimony crying out to God under the heavenly altar to avenge them. You can’t cry out to God if your soul is dead or “asleep.” In Revelation 20:4, John sees a flashforward where they come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years. Clearly then, they were crying out to God after they had died but before they were resurrected and reigned with Christ.

 

[Jack]

The “lake of fire” is not a literal location

Satan LOVES that doctrine!

but symbolises eternal death....a place unlike sheol/hades, from which the dead are resurrected, “Gehenna” is a place from which no one returns.

'Symbolic' a JW fav when they don't like what God said!

Matthew
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[St. SteVen]

Why does the Bible explain "you shall surely die" Genesis 2:17, "For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” Gen. 3:19 in the book of Genesis, why does the book of Genesis explain these details in the first place? Why does Genesis explain nothing about we really don't die?

That is a reference to physical death.
Nothing to do with the state of the dead in the afterlife.

There are 29 references to the "realm of the dead" in the NIV translation.
Two of them are in Acts chapter 2 and one is in Ecclesiastes 9:10

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm of the dead

www.biblegateway.com

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 that says the spirit returns to the God that gave it, that word spirit by definition means
wind/breath/spirit one detail in that scripture is the wind, breath, spirit goes back to the God who gave it, the scripture does not explain that it is a spiritual body or that we keep on living.

So this scripture does not change what is already said in the book of Genesis.

Basing doctrine on a poetical book is ill advised. IMHO

[

 

[Jack]

That is a reference to physical death.
Nothing to do with the state of the dead in the afterlife.

There are 29 references to the "realm of the dead" in the NIV translation.
Two of them are in Acts chapter 2 and one is in Ecclesiastes 9:10

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm of the dead

www.biblegateway.com

Tell us what Jesus said about the EVERLASTING fire. Do you even know? He mentioned it several times.

 

[Jack]

Basing doctrine on a poetical book is ill advised. IMHO

Poetical? No Christian would imply such a thing! How long have you been OBSESSED with attacking God of the Bible?

 

[walter]

Ecclesiastes 9:10

Ecclesiastes 9:10
New International Version
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

• Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
• for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
• there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
• doesn't the words explain the dead going somewhere and neither working nor planning nor wisdom, will be their? If their is no planning, knowledge and wisdom does that sound like these ones are alive?

 

[walter]

That is a reference to physical death.
Nothing to do with the state of the dead in the afterlife.

Starting with Genesis these words are not explained, but there is words explained in the book of Genesis, they just don't agree with these words:

"That is a reference to physical death.
Nothing to do with the state of the dead in the afterlife."

 

[walter]

Basing doctrine on a poetical book is ill advised. IMHO

[

My point is Ecclesiastes 12:7 can be taken different ways, it all depends which word you select to use: wind, breath or spirit or all three. Which word would you select if you wanted to agree with the majority of scriptures in the Bible, that are clearly explained?

I don't base my beliefs on the minority of scriptures, I base my beliefs on the majority of scriptures that is clearly in agreement and make sense with each-other.