LEFT BEHIND ... what to do?

[Douggg]

God's words clearly teach the (Man Of Sin/ The Antichrist) will be revealed to the church upon earth, you falsely believe and teach the church won't be on this earth

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

No, 2Thessalonians2:3-4 is not teaching the church would go through the great tribulation. But just the opposite.

Paul was reassuring the believers in Thessalonica that the church, the body of believers in Christ, will be raptured from the earth before the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin.

The Antichrist, when he commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4, revealing himself as the man of sin, will trigger the beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath will be poured out.

In 1Thessalonians5:1-11, Paul taught that believers in Christ will be resurrected/raptured before the day of the Lord begins. The resurrection/rapture is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Then if the mark is literal that would contradict John 3:16 then wouldn’t it?

Scripture does not contradict itself! As a Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit, a reprobate is irredeemably lost.
"If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink the wine of the wrath of God... he will be tormented with fire and sulfur... and they have no rest, day or night". Rev. 14:9-11

"Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone." Rev. 19:20

Even before these individuals receive the mark, they are reprobate. God gave them over, let them go as we see in Romans 1:

24 "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:"

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


An individual can become irredeemable by persistently rejecting God's grace and hardening their heart to the point where they are no longer able to repent. God let's them go, gives them over, gives up on them, making it impossible for them to repent. Well, a person gets so far away, by his own will and God let's them go, stops drawing them.
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44

Taking the mark would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit. They will be worshipping Satan, thinking he is God. They are sealed, perminently stamped as Satan's.

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. Matt. 7:13

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Too bad the AI can't recognize that Pretrib is a false doctrine, and is not even existing in the Scriptures (from my perspective). But I understand that there are different positions. Some believe that anything other than Pretrib is false doctrine. ;)

When asked which Premillenniql view of the Rapture is most logical, it gave this answer:

In pre-millennialism, post-tribulation is considered the most logical doctrine by historic premillennialists, as it aligns with the view of a single return of Christ where the Rapture and Second Coming are the same event occurring after the tribulation. However, pretribulation is the most logical view within modern dispensational premillennialism, arguing the Church is removed before the 7-year tribulation, often citing verses like 1 Thessalonians 4 and the idea of the Holy Spirit being the "restrainer" who must be taken away before the "man of lawlessness" can be revealed (as in 2 Thessalonians 2). The mid-tribulation view is less common and has less support than the other two.

Pretribulation Rapture

• Premise: The Church is raptured before the 7-year tribulation period begins, and the Second Coming occurs after the tribulation.
• Logic: This view often argues that the Church will be rescued from God's wrath, which is poured out during the tribulation. It also sometimes uses passages like 2 Thessalonians 2 to suggest the Holy Spirit (as the restrainer) must be removed before the tribulation can begin, which would mean the Church is already gone.
• Key Scriptural support: 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (the rapture of the church), 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (the restrainer), and passages suggesting believers will be saved from God's wrath (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 3:10).

Post-tribulation Rapture

• Premise: The Rapture and the Second Coming are a single event that takes place after the tribulation.
• Logic: This view argues that the rapture will happen at the end of the tribulation, followed immediately by Christ's return to earth. It is often seen as more consistent with scriptural passages that speak of believers enduring tribulation and suffering before the final events.
• Key Scriptural support: Matthew 24:29-31 (Jesus speaks of "immediately after the tribulation" followed by the gathering of the elect).

Mid-tribulation Rapture

• Premise: The Church goes through the first half of the tribulation but is raptured at the midpoint, escaping the latter half where God's "great wrath" is poured out.
• Logic: This view holds that the church will experience some persecution but will be removed before the most intense period of judgment.
• Key Scriptural support: Arguments are often based on interpreting the "midpoint" of the 70th week of Daniel and linking it to events like the "abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24. This view is less popular than the other two.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

AI seems to err with my Mid-Trib view, since I do not ascribe to the theory of the 70 weeks of Daniel containing a gap of 2000 years. Gabriel prophesied the correct time frame for Jesus 1ST coming. Man does not nor can alter God's perfect plan. He knows the future, how man will respond and has factores into His plan all our sin and blunders ahead of time. The 70 weeks of Daniel was historically fulfilled, a prophecy only about Christ's 1ST coming. This, if I am right alters the necessity of a 7 year Tribulation. I only see 3 1/2 years. It is as if Christ came His first time for 3 1/2 years as the Prince of Peace, the Lamb of God and in His Second Coming for 3 1/2 years, in judgment as King, a Lion.

 

[MatthewG]

Gap theory is just a theory. Not a reality.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Do you also believe sins like lying, adultery and murder cannot be forgiven since those sins also mean one goes to the LOF?

Rev. 21 speaks of a time after the Millennial Kingdom and refers to the SECOND DEATH. ALL who are in Hades, who died already are those described in vs. 8. Once you die, your destiny is fixed. Those in Hades do not have a second chance to repent. But you should know this - unless you are a Universalist?
What I believe is not important. Stick to commenting about those left behind, during the Great Tribulation and of course before the Millennial Kingdom.

Anyways, back to the thread. Obviously some refuse the mark of the Beast. And then after the Seven Bowls of Wrath are emptied, it seems that no one repents, they war against and curse God. But some Christians survive the Great Tribulation. "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."
Dan. 12:12

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

God's words clearly teach the (Man Of Sin/ The Antichrist) will be revealed to the church upon earth, you falsely believe and teach the church won't be on this earth

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Maybe you don't understand the verse?
The day of the Lord's return will not come until the Antichrist is revealed. This just means at this time, which could be at the same time. The Restrainer ( Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way, for the Antichrist to have full reign during his short time. Swe are and the Church is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, which will being taken out if the way. Evil on earth will he unrestrained during the Great Tribulation. But the Antichrist will deceive and appear to be a peace maker but he will be evil incarnate.
And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. 2 Thes. 2:6-7

 

[rwb]

One would have to use their imagination. I would surmise something similar but thought it was interesting how a machine can figure this out and someone that professes to be a Christian cannot!
This is AI, which gathers information from 5 billion books, millions of eschatological commentaries, skims through them in seconds and spits out an answer. Cool.

It sounds more like doctrine derived from the Left Behind series of FICTIONAL books as well as fictional works like The Late Great Planet Earth. Perhaps these are the sources that AI used?

 

[quietthinker]

One would have to use their imagination. I would surmise something similar but thought it was interesting how a machine can figure this out and someone that professes to be a Christian cannot!
This is AI, which gathers information from 5 billion books, millions of eschatological commentaries, skims through them in seconds and spits out an answer. Cool.

You have swallowed popular theology. I would ask, is that the measure you use to determine the truth of things?

 

[Brakelite]

No. “... If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." REV. 14:9-10

There are several erroneous assumptions made by those who trust in some future rapture as an escape pod from having to endure persecution and troubles. The coming crisis that is coming upon the whole of mankind is one of deception. The rapture theory is one of those deceptions.
Some errors just in this thread are countered by the following truths...

• When Jesus returns the only ones left behind after the remnant are taken to heaven are dead...
• The tribulation and final crisis will be something we all live through except we pass away naturally first...
• The coming millennium which begins at Christ's coming does not consist of any activity on this planet... Everyone's either dead or in heaven...
• Accepting or rejecting the mark of the beast is a choice everyone will need to make... Including God's people.
• Only the beast itself is qualified to define what it's mark is... You are wasting your time using your imagination...
• Those who accept the mark of the beast will not be thinking, 'this is the mark of the beast'. Some will accept it conscientiously and gladly (in the forehead/conscience/mind... frontal lobe ) as a token of their fidelity and faithfulness to who they think is the true God, most will accept it in their hand because everyone else is, ist convenient, its warranted, is for la the common good, it will help heal the planet, it will be illegal to reject it.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

It sounds more like doctrine derived from the Left Behind series of FICTIONAL books as well as fictional works like The Late Great Planet Earth. Perhaps these are the sources that AI used?

I read those books. The Left Behind series was about dozen books. The concept was obviously fictionalized but based on truths within. Tim LaHaye had some imagination creating the hypothetical story of what it may be like after the Church is taken up. Many movies have come out since then so everyone is familiar with the story. The Late Great Planet Earth was a ground breaker, introducing Christians to the concept of the End Times. I lived in Torrance, California for 35 years and used to attend Tetelestai, Hal Lindsey's church. I was a baby Christian in the early 90's and so he was captivating. He just had a presumed date wrong, thinking a generation was only 40 years ... amongst other concepts. It's 70 - 80 years according to Pslam 90:10.
Those books got people's attention for sure. Nothing is by chance. All things work for good. They loved the Lord. I agreed with some but not all concepts in their books. Actually, I always questioned the Pre-Trib view and had my doubts. Recently, I have been more open and found ways to reconcile portions of this view with my beliefs. Open but not certain.

 

[WPM]

One would have to use their imagination. I would surmise something similar but thought it was interesting how a machine can figure this out and someone that professes to be a Christian cannot!
This is AI, which gathers information from 5 billion books, millions of eschatological commentaries, skims through them in seconds and spits out an answer. Cool.

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You have swallowed popular theology. I would ask, is that the measure you use to determine the truth of things?

I don't swallow anything theological. I am by nature skeptical, question and analyze everything.
I became a Christian in 1991, long before AI. This is just a recent advancement in computer technology that is quite fascinating. Of course, we don't need a teacher, we have the Holy Spirit. He gives truths in bits and pieces gradually. If you asked the Holy Spirit to summarize anything in life, would He give you a 500 word essay in 5 seconds? No. I think we can use AI but need to make sure the algorithms are not slanted one way or another. Grok, Elon Musk's new AI was created without boundaries or any bias left or right wing. It was asked a question about the odds that Evolution or spontaneous generation were possible. The answer was impossible. It actually reasoned that there must be a Creator, an Intellegent designer. Then it was asked about Jesus. The answer was also true.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There are several erroneous assumptions made by those who trust in some future rapture as an escape pod from having to endure persecution and troubles

Well, depending on one's viewpoint. Several scriptures confirm that God will keep the faithful church from the hour of trial.

The rapture theory is one of those deceptions

1 Thes. 4:16-17, 1 Cor. 15:52 are not deceptions

When Jesus returns the only ones left behind after the remnant are taken to heaven are dead.

Who will repopulate the earth? Scripture in Isaiah describe a different earth than you imagine. Since we, with our new resurrected bodies cannot procreate (no husbands and wives in heaven), obviously mortals will survive, many Jewish converts and likely millions of new believers coming to faith after the Rapture.

The coming millennium which begins at Christ's coming does not consist of any activity on this planet... Everyone's either dead or in heaven..

Really, the planet is empty. What purpose would God have for a lifeless planet?
The Millennial Kingdom will flourish, be transformed into Paradise reborn.
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.
10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”
Isaiah 11:6-10

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,
And their offspring with them.
24 “It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the Lord.
Isaiah 65:16-25
These verses describe life in the Millennial Kingdom.

Accepting or rejecting the mark of the beast is a choice everyone will need to make... Including God's people.

God's elect already have His mark. God chose us. If I happen to be around for this abomination, my disgust and distain for him alone would prevent me considering such a decision. Those who take the mark are blind, and have a seared conscience ... are reprobate since God already let them go.

Those who accept the mark of the beast will not be thinking, 'this is the mark of the beast'.

They are blind, but maybe they heard about it from us in the past. Nevertheless, they want to eat, buy, sell and survive, so they take it not realizing or believing the consequences of God's judgment until afterward.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, they do not teach "someone could choose to just wait ". Pre-trib teaches today is the day of salvation.

It can make someone think that way because it teaches that people can be saved after the rapture. Why are you defending the false teaching that people can be saved after the rapture when Jesus made it clear in Luke 17:26-37 that those left behind will be killed just like those who were left out of the ark were killed by the flood in Noah's day and those left behind in Sodom were killed in Lot's day?

 

[Marty fox]

Then that would contradict John 3:16 then wouldn’t it?

Scripture does not contradict itself! As a Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit, a reprobate is irredeemably lost.
"If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink the wine of the wrath of God... he will be tormented with fire and sulfur... and they have no rest, day or night". Rev. 14:9-11

"Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone." Rev. 19:20

Even before these individuals receive the mark, they are reprobate. God gave them over, let them go as we see in Romans 1:

24 "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:"

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


An individual can become irredeemable by persistently rejecting God's grace and hardening their heart to the point where they are no longer able to repent. God let's them go, gives them over, gives up on them, making it impossible for them to repent. Well, a person gets so far away, by his own will and God let's them go, stops drawing them.
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44

Taking the mark would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit. They will be worshipping Satan, thinking he is God. They are sealed, perminently stamped as Satan's.

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. Matt. 7:13

What you are describing is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is what Jesus said is the only unforgivable sin.

This proves that the mark of the beast is not literal mark but a constant unrepentant devotion to satan. A literal mark of the beast contradicts John 3:16

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Didn't really intend for this, but this thread actually dismantled Post-Tribs (and for certain the Amillennials who are totally out of touch); since their views cannot explain or identify with Isaiah 11:6-10 and 65:17-25. This is a big problem for them. If Christains are all resurrected and there is no one left behind because everyone else is dead; then in what reality do these people in Isaiah exist, woth babies bei g born and people still dying? They'll probably spirituality it, come up with some erroneous symbolism?

 

[rebuilder 454]

AMILLENNIALS PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND.
PREMILLENNIAL SAFE ZONE. I actually have all of you on ignor so, don't expect any more answers. Thank You!

Wise.
Mockers have disenfranchised themselves.

Their domain is adult day care.
Total waste of time.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Didn't really intend for this, but this thread actually dismantled Post-Tribs (and for certain the Amillennials who are totally out of touch); since their views cannot explain or identify with Isaiah 11:6-10 and 65:17-25. This is a big problem for them. If Christains are all resurrected and there is no one left behind because everyone else is dead; then in what reality do these people in Isaiah exist, woth babies bei g born and people still dying? They'll probably spirituality it, come up with some erroneous symbolism?

Postribs Can Not unpack the 10 virgin parable, nor can they understand Jesus analogy of Noah, and Lot.

I am so glad I am not in that trap.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What you are describing is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is what Jesus said is the only unforgivable sin.

This proves that the mark of the beast is not literal mark but a constant unrepentant devotion to satan. A literal mark of the beast contradicts John 3:16

Nope.
It is a mark that other wicked heathens can see and allow commerce.
No mark, no buying or selling allowed.

It is obvious, it is a literal mark.