LEFT BEHIND ... what to do?

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, 2Thessalonians2:3-4 is not teaching the church would go through the great tribulation. But just the opposite.

Paul was reassuring the believers in Thessalonica that the church, the body of believers in Christ, will be raptured from the earth before the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin.

You are blatantly contradicting what Paul said. He should there would be a mass faling away and the revealing of the man of sin FIRST before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him.

The Antichrist, when he commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4, revealing himself as the man of sin, will trigger the beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath will be poured out.

In 1Thessalonians5:1-11, Paul taught that believers in Christ will be resurrected/raptured before the day of the Lord begins. The resurrection/rapture is in 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

Paul equated the day of the Lord with the second coming of Christ when we are gathered to Him. It's a literal day that will come and then Jesus will return on that day and we will be gathered to Him in the air.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So, Paul makes it clear at the beginning of this passage that he was going to speak of things "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him". In verse 2, instead of repeating that long phrase, he refers to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" as "the day of the Lord". Then in verse 3, he again refers to "that day" (the day of the Lord when Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him) and says it will not come until the rebellion (falling away) occurs and the man of lawlessness (man of sin) is revealed first. You try to say that the man of sin is revealed after the rapture, but Paul said it the other way around. Do you also try to say that the falling away occurs after the rapture? Paul clearly said otherwise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is both a spiritual condition of the heart, a rejection of Christ and su mission to the Beast. But how would you explain not being able to buybir sell unless you had the mark? Do you think have a spiritual detection unit at every cash register? In a cashless society, which they are already planning for, every person will be chipped. A very small injection of a micro chip. You scan it and you get groceries don't have it, you going fishing, hunt deer and/or grow your own food. If you had a farm, the government will come and take it from you so you'll go hungry without the mark.

Why do you assume it's talking about buying and selling physical merchandise? Are you somehow not aware that having the mark of the beast and worshiping the beast (as those with the mark all do) means someone is not saved and does not have their name written in the book of life (Rev 13:8) and will end up in the lake of fire if they don't repent (Rev 14:9-11)? How does anything physical have anything to do with determining if someone is spiritually saved or not?

Are you unaware that the terms buy and sell can be used in a spiritual sense? Such as in verses like these...

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth and do not sell it— wisdom, instruction and insight as well.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Animals in the bible represent people and nations these animals are enemies to each other, thus its showing that who were ones enemies people will live in peace with each other within the church we will be one people, that the point of the holy mountain mentioned in verse 9.

Sometimes as in we are sheep and Jesus is the lamb of God. But Isaiah speaks both of animals in harmony and people, distinguishing them and children living in harmony with animals. Nice try, but no.

Hebrews 12 speaks of the Christians entrance into the kingdom of heaven, which is now spiritual. ISAIAH 11 & 65 are speaking of a literal earthly life and reality, a Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Marty fox]

It is both a spiritual condition of the heart, a rejection of Christ, a submission to the Beast, but also a physical mark. But how would you explain not being able to buybir sell unless you had the mark? Do you think have a spiritual detection unit at every cash register? In a cashless society, which they are already planning for, every person will be chipped. A very small injection of a micro chip. You scan it and you get groceries don't have it, you going fishing, hunt deer and/or grow your own food. If you had a farm, the government will come and take it from you so you'll go hungry without the mark.

Its symbolic for not being a part of society just like the church had to take care of each other in Acts chapter 2 because they were cast out of the Jewish community.

It's just like the covid vaccine, I didn't buy into it and I didn't take it I was not allowed to do many things and go to many places because of it. I was an outcast because of my beliefs and convictions.

 

[shepherdsword]

According to this it is the wicked who shall be taken and the righteous left.

Mt 13:40-43
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sometimes as in we are sheep and Jesus is the lamb of God. But Isaiah speaks both of animals in harmony and people, distinguishing them and children living in harmony with animals. Nice try, but no.

Hebrews 12 speaks of the Christians entrance into the kingdom of heaven, which is now spiritual. ISAIAH 11 & 65 are speaking of a literal earthly life and reality, a Millennial Kingdom.

Isaiah 11:10 is quoted by Paul in relation to Gentiles being saved during this New Testament time period in Romans 15:12. You just completely ignore that. And Isaiah 65:17-25 is in relation to the new heavens and new earth. There is no basis for relating the new heavens and new earth to "a Millennial Kingdom". Do you think Revelation 21:1-5 relates to "a Millennial Kingdom"? I'm sure you don't. So, you need to stop interpreting scriptures like Isaiah 11 and 65 in a way that contradicts other scriptures.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

According to this it is the wicked who shall be taken and the righteous left.

Mt 13:40-43
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That passage does not relate to one being taken and one being left. The reference to one being taken and one being left is in relation to people who are alive when Jesus comes. One is taken up to be with Christ and the other is left behind and killed. The passage you're quoting there is in relation to people being gathered before Christ to be judged (as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46) at the end of the age when He returns and that is when believers will inherit "the kingdom of their Father" while unbelievers will be cast into the fire (known as "a furnace of fire", "everlasting fire" - Matt 25:41 and "the lake of fire" - Rev 20:15).

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is a huge difference in holding to a Biblical doctrine, and clinging to some hope of escape.

I would ask you, myself being a pre-tribber, to you actually think that I think I won't/don't have to endure persecution and troubles? With all kindness and respect, what ever would give you that idea about me??

Much love!

I certainly don't think that way about you, that you're afraid of persecution and want to escape any of it. However, the problem I have with Pretrib is the common association of that position with the effort to avoid some kind of assumed "punishment" against backslidden Christians in the time of Antichrist's reign. It's as if the persecuted Church during this time failed to receive Christ in time to avoid this time of trouble, viewed as "God's Wrath against the Antichrist."

So, the time of Antichrist's Reign is built up by Pretribbers to be the "worst time in world history to be here," such that we should seek to escape it by accepting Christ now. Does that even sound like God? God punishes people who have not accepted Christ, and then instantly turns them into saints after the Rapture, enabling them to act like mature Christians who testify against the Antichrist and suffer death at his hands?

I don't personally think so, though I grant you your right to interpret things as you see them. Take care!

 

[Douggg]

Paul equated the day of the Lord with the second coming of Christ when we are gathered to Him.

No. If that were correct, then the Thessalonians should not have been troubled by rumors that the day of the Lord had begun (indicated in verse 2).

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [the resurrection/rapture]
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [don't be troubled by rumors]

Then Paul gives the two things that must happen before the day of the Lord begins...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath will be poured out will be when the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood (verse 4).

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The resurrection/rapture will be before the day of the Lord begins (when God's wrath will be poured out).

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[MatthewG]

There is a verse concerning rumors that the resurrrection of the dead had already happened also in that day in age Paul was addressing.


There many people who like to quote that verse as it is something they need to adhere to today but again it was not writtten to them..

that hagus and phinus guy whatever their name was - was real people.

Paul addressed that the time was not then or something along those lines, and he just correcting rumors but we know the time was soon when you get to revelation.

 

[marks]

I certainly don't think that way about you, that you're afraid of persecution and want to escape any of it. However, the problem I have with Pretrib is the common association of that position with the effort to avoid some kind of assumed "punishment" against backslidden Christians in the time of Antichrist's reign. It's as if the persecuted Church during this time failed to receive Christ in time to avoid this time of trouble, viewed as "God's Wrath against the Antichrist."

So, the time of Antichrist's Reign is built up by Pretribbers to be the "worst time in world history to be here," such that we should seek to escape it by accepting Christ now. Does that even sound like God? God punishes people who have not accepted Christ, and then instantly turns them into saints after the Rapture, enabling them to act like mature Christians who testify against the Antichrist and suffer death at his hands?

I don't personally think so, though I grant you your right to interpret things as you see them. Take care!

The stuff you are saying here, I never hear these things. I've been in pretrib circles for a long time, and I don't hear things like this.

Well, I do, actually, but it's always from those who are attempting to refute pretrib. And you seem to be adding in some partial rapture ideas.

The thing it seems to me that many people don't understand, just because we hold a pretrib position doesn't mean we have some warped view of tribulation, which is affliction, which is contrary circumstances which cause suffering. Some of it is caused by others, and some is caused simply by circumstances. That suffering can be prolonged and immense.

When Jesus said that this would be the time of greatest affliction this world has known, that doesn't mean no one will have ever suffered worse than these, rather, that there would be more than ever before.

Christians are being tortured and killed today, in all manner of horrible ways. I don't think it hurts less now because it's before the rapture. And of course not just Christians, all manner of people. But it will be greater then. More. Though when a man suffers, he suffers, no matter what the occasion.

Yes, we rejoice in our anticipation of being gathered together to Jesus. We rejoice in at last being free of all the constraints and adversity in this world. And we, just like you, are mindful of what the apostle wrote,

1 Peter 4:1 YLT
Christ, then, having suffered for us in the flesh, ye also with the same mind arm yourselves, because he who did suffer in the flesh hath done with sin,

Much love!

 

[JLB]

One would have to use their imagination. I would surmise something similar but thought it was interesting how a machine can figure this out and someone that professes to be a Christian cannot!
This is AI, which gathers information from 5 billion books, millions of eschatological commentaries, skims through them in seconds and spits out an answer. Cool.

‘The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


His coming is the second coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. If that were correct,

If very obviously is correct. Paul didn't change the subject from 2 Thess 2 verse 1 to verse 2. He used the phrase "the day of the Lord" to refer to the topic he just introduced in the previous verse which was "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him". So, the day of the Lord is the day of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him". That is very, very obvious to anyone who reads scripture objectively without doctrinal bias.

then the Thessalonians should not have been troubled by rumors that the day of the Lord had begun (indicated in verse 2).

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [the resurrection/rapture]
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [don't be troubled by rumors]

Then Paul gives the two things that must happen before the day of the Lord begins...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You're not understanding the reason why Paul said what he did in verse 2. His concern was for anyone who might have been told or might have read something contrary to the reality about the day of the Lord's coming when we will be gathered to Him, so he didn't want anyone to be troubled by any such false teaching that they have have read or heard. It seems that maybe there were some teaching that at the time (that the day of the Lord had already come) and Paul didn't want any of them to be deceived by it.

Paul made it clear that the day of the Lord's coming when we are gathered to Him can't happen until first there is a falling away and the man of sin is revealed. So, if those things hadn't happened yet, which they hadn't, then they could know that they did not miss His coming and our being gathered to Him (the day of the Lord). You are reading things into what Paul was saying that simply are not there.

The beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath will be poured out will be when the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood (verse 4).

This is where you frequently run into trouble and cause scripture to contradict itself. You forget to keep other scripture in mind whenever you interpret any given verse or passage. What you're saying there does not line up with what Paul wrote here...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Douggg says: "The beginning of the day of the Lord...will be when the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood".

Paul (Scripture) says: "The day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.".

In your view the day of the Lord does NOT come unexpectedly as a thief in the night while bringing "sudden destruction" upon those in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape". There doesn't seem to be anything unexpected about the coming of the day of the Lord in your view. You're not getting that Paul indicated that the "sudden destruction" of God's wrath from which "they shall not escape" occurs unexpectedly and immediately upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. Nowhere does Paul indicate that the day of the Lord begins with actions by a supposed AntiChrist or anything like that. No, he says it will come unexpectedaly as a thief in the night bringing sudden destruction. There's no unexpected, sudden destruction that occurs when an AntiChrist goes and sits in a temple. The bottom line here is that you are taking 2 Thessalonians 2 completely out of context and causing it to contradict other scripture like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The resurrection/rapture will be before the day of the Lord begins (when God's wrath will be poured out).

According to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, the resurrection/rapture occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord which Paul says is the day of Christ's second coming when we will be gathered to Him. The day of the Lord is a literal 24 hour day during which, at some point, Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and caught up with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air and then the Lord will send down sudden destruction upon unbelievers in spiritual darkness from which they shall not escape. That is what Paul taught.

 

[Douggg]

The day of the Lord is a literal 24 hour day during which, at some point, Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and caught up with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air and then the Lord will send down sudden destruction upon unbelievers in spiritual darkness from which they shall not escape. That is what Paul taught.

The day of the Lord will last for eternity.

 

[David in NJ]

This question was asked AI: If the Rapture of the Church occurred with over 2 billion people taken out of the Great Tribulation that just started and were caught up into Heaven, what advice would you give those left behind?

AI answer:

"Seek salvation and endure persecution

• Repent and put your faith in Jesus: The Bible states that salvation will still be possible during the Tribulation. A great multitude of people from every nation will come to faith during this time. Your first step should be to repent of your sins and trust in Jesus Christ as your savior.
• Understand the cost: Accepting Christ during the Tribulation will likely come at a heavy price. The Antichrist will demand worship and allegiance, and many new believers will be persecuted and killed for their faith. The Bible says, "the one who endures to the end will be saved" (Matthew 24:13).
• Refuse the Mark of the Beast: The book of Revelation warns that anyone who takes the Mark of the Beast will be subject to God's wrath. No matter the hardship—including an inability to buy or sell—you must refuse this mark on your hand or forehead.

Prepare practically and spiritually

• Find a Bible: Bibles will become extremely rare, and you will need to find one to understand God's plan and promises. Seek a physical copy, as electronics may fail or be used for control.
• Avoid the new world religion: Do not attend any churches that remain, as they are believed to be controlled by the False Prophet. This false religion will promote deception and false miracles. Seek other true believers for underground fellowship instead.
• Leave urban areas: Jesus advised those in Judea to flee to the mountains to escape persecution. Large cities and populated areas will likely be dangerous and tightly controlled by the Antichrist's forces.

Do not despair

• Recognize the deception: The world will be flooded with propaganda and false explanations for the disappearance of millions of people. Do not believe these lies, such as stories of alien abductions.
• Trust in God's provision: While life will be extremely difficult, the Bible gives accounts of God protecting and providing for his followers during times of severe trial. Seek wisdom and trust that God will help you endure.
• Share the message with others: Your survival through faith can serve as a testament to others. Though you will need to be vigilant, you can help guide other people toward salvation.
• Keep your eyes on the end: The Tribulation is not the end of the story. After this period, Jesus Christ will return in power and glory to establish His kingdom and bring the final defeat of evil."

_________<<<&<<<__<<________

Actually, I couldn't have summed it up better - not bad!
So the prize of eternal salvation is waiting for whosoever calls out to Jesus and asks for forgiveness and puts their faith in Him. Though you will likely suffer and die, you'll be saved.

How you have fallen

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Its symbolic for not being a part of society just like the church had to take care of each other in Acts chapter 2 because they were cast out of the Jewish community.

It's just like the covid vaccine, I didn't buy into it and I didn't take it I was not allowed to do many things and go to many places because of it. I was an outcast because of my beliefs and convictions.

I didn't take the vax either. Some think that was the precursor to the mark. They have the chips now. A worldwide mandate will happen, people will get in line, but this time it's not a vaccine, no symptoms, there's no virus to fight off ... just a way to buy, sell and have control over society. It will be your worldwide ID linked to your bank, medical, personal info, where you are and your forsed allegiance to the One World Governmet led by the Beast. It's interesting that a massive computer system decades ago was called the Beast.

 

[David in NJ]

What you are describing is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is what Jesus said is the only unforgivable sin.

This proves that the mark of the beast is not literal mark but a constant unrepentant devotion to satan. A literal mark of the beast contradicts John 3:16

Please share how a literal mark contradicts John 3:16

Concerning the subject of "pre-trib rapture" @Ronald David Bruno is self-deceived as he rejects the words of Christ and the Apostles.

The 'literal mark' is already here but is yet to be implemented/made law, though the technology is being installed worldwide as we speak.

Many 'christians' will take the Mark as their pastors are already telling them to do so.

The pastors are saying that they will not be here for the Mark, therefore any technology that comes out whereby it is the only way to "Buy-n- Sell" is safe to accept/embrace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The day of the Lord will last for eternity.

Show me where scripture teaches this.

 

[Dave Watchman]

AMILLENNIALS PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND.
PREMILLENNIAL SAFE ZONE. I actually have all of you on ignor so, don't expect any more answers. Thank You!

I put them on ignore too. Just for this next little while for an experiment. It does make the pages go by fast. Like just you and me have the forum.

I noticed something new just today. Earlier I had jest when suggesting the Julian Calendar, it's not like I'm mentioning anything off the wall like the 364 day Enoch Calendar. And what do you know, that's what they're talking about now.

This video is a pretty good AI summation of everything from Joshua, until now.

Or this for the quick recap at 15:10 near the end:

So if the 8th day Feast, Shemini Atzeret, on next Tuesday October 14 disappoints, (21 Day Delay), there still will be September 23-24 on the Enoch Calendar.

According to the Enoch calendar, September 23-24, 2025, on the Gregorian calendar, corresponds to October 16-17, 2025, on the Enoch calendar.​

This alignment is based on the Enoch calendar's structure, which consists of 364 days per year divided into four seasons of 91 days each, with each season comprising three months of 30, 30, and 31 days respectively.​

The calendar begins each day at sunset, not midnight, meaning a day starts roughly around 6 p.m. and ends at 6 p.m. the following day.​

The Enoch calendar is fixed and does not include intercalary days or months, unlike some other calendar systems.​

The Spring Equinox is used to reset the calendar each year, establishing the days of the week for the new year and synchronizing the earthly calendar with the heavenly one.​

The day following the Spring Equinox is considered the first day of the first month, which is set to fall on the fourth day of the week.​

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Douggg]

Show me where scripture teaches this.

The day of Christ (referred to in 2Thessalonians2:2) begins in 2Thessalonians2:4.

Since we have eternal life in Christ our Lord, the day of the Lord is eternal.