Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[shepherdsword]

Verse 7 is variously translated "set free from sin", "freed from sin", I quoted from the EMTV because it shows the word used there, "justified".

View attachment 71454
Apo is to be understood as "moving away from". It was close, now it's far. There is another way to translate justified, that is righteous-ized, made, rendered, declared righteous.



Much love!

the ISA Scripture Analyzer is a good tool to examine the usage and context of certain words but it leaves alot to be desired in the way of translation and parsing verbs. It does a decent job here but in some places it is pretty bad.

 

[marks]

the ISA Scripture Analyzer is a good tool to examine the usage and context of certain words but it leaves alot to be desired in the way of translation and parsing verbs. It does a decent job here but in some places it is pretty bad.

I agree, it's not intended to be a translation.

Can you think of a place off hand where the syntax shown isn't correct?

Much love!

 

[shepherdsword]

I agree, it's not intended to be a translation.

Can you think of a place off hand where the syntax shown isn't correct?

Much love!

It's been a while so I don't remember the exact places but I remember there were at least two. I think Baker's analytical is the best but I don't have a digital version so I use the parsing done in the Biblesoft PC Study Bible the most. In this case it is exactly the same:

 

[marks]

It's been a while so I don't remember the exact places but I remember there were at least two. I think Baker's analytical is the best but I don't have a digital version so I use the parsing done in the Biblesoft PC Study Bible the most.

I tried Biblesoft some years ago and found it very unweildy. Mostly I use E-Sword for my computer Bible. It was the memorizing all the verb endings where I had the most trouble in Greek class.

Anyway, if anything comes to you, I'll be interested.

Much love!

 

[shepherdsword]

I tried Biblesoft some years ago and found it very unweildy. Mostly I use E-Sword for my computer Bible. It was the memorizing all the verb endings where I had the most trouble in Greek class.

Anyway, if anything comes to you, I'll be interested.

Much love!

I could never find an interlinear for e-Sword, of course the last I checked was 20 years ago. Although I admit that ISA translates the greek in a few places better that Biblesoft. However, for the most part it's better than ISA. What I love about ISA is it's ability to cross reference every scripture where a word was used. This allow a simple but deep dive into how words are translated in certain context

 

[marks]

cross reference every scripture where a word was used.

This is one of my more often uses for my software. E-Sword has the concordance by Strong's number, so it's really easy look at these.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Is the second level of righteousness best described as holy? Since it surpasses the first level of righteousness

I have always loved this verse.

We must be careful of the natural mind and of taking things too literally, it will lead us astray of the mark. Scripture/truth needs to be spiritually discerned.

I love that verse too........to the believer I believe it is talking about the righteousness of humility through acknowledging that one's own righteousness falls short of the glory.......breaking up the fallow ground of our hearts is the righteousness of Godly sorrow that leads to God granting a real change through repentance. I believe we can apply it in a general way of those who have been made righteous continuing to seek and apprehend on earth the righteousness that has been imputed to us in heaven, as well as in specific ways to specific areas of our life and heart that we are needing and seeking to overcome in. Fallow ground is ground that currently unfruitful....we might consider hopefully that it's in a state of preparation.

To me I can see how that verse is speaking to the Jew first on one level regarding receiving the gospel........and on another level "then to the Gentile" (church) whose starting point is already having received the gospel and imputed righteousness, and our seeking to apprehend that for which Christ has apprehended us.

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree with you 100% here, but I'd have to make clear, this doesn't have anything to do with whether we are justified or not being baptized into Jesus Christ. That is, our salvation is in Christ alone, we are not able to effect any good work that matches what Jesus did, as though we add alongside Him.

I believe salvation is permanent, and happens in one way, that we are baptized into Jesus Christ, dying with Him, to rise with Him into our new life.

Yes the one who argues with us all claims that this is the starting gate, "a taste", but I truly pity the man who thinks they have to somehow add something Jesus did not include. It's a legalistic works trip, and it destroys lives, leaving people angry, bitter, desolate, while clinging to the remaining veneer of their beliefs.

Hopefully such a one has "merely" suffered from a fall from grace, a broken faith, and though while shipwrecked, is still the Lord's. God help such a one who continues out of a fear of impending judgment and destruction, while not actually in Christ! It's a miserable way to live. And because this is all from flesh, there is no fruitfulness. The saved one in this state is the one who will pass through the fire to find nothing but ashes after.

Romans 6:3-9 EMTV
3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be in the likeness of His resurrection;
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, so that the body of sin may be done away with, that we should no longer serve sin.
7) For he who has died has been justified from sin.
8) But if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live together with Him,
9) knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, no longer dies. Death is no longer master over Him.

Verse 7 is variously translated "set free from sin", "freed from sin", I quoted from the EMTV because it shows the word used there, "justified".

View attachment 71454
Apo is to be understood as "moving away from". It was close, now it's far. There is another way to translate justified, that is righteous-ized, made, rendered, declared righteous.

And of course this agrees with Ephesians 4:24, that we are created patterned after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

Much love!

These are difficult questions to me brother...sometimes I think I get it and other times I'm all at sea. I think overall we need to receive what is written through eyes of faith and spirit which is life (Tree of Life). The letter (Tree of Knowledge) kills...but maybe there are times when that is good for us. It slew Paul, and led to life. I don't think we should be expecting to feel comfortable all the time....the bible says blessed are you who mourn now, for you will be comforted.

I feel like there is a way in which the letter can be slaying us in a good way while we are still under grace and faith, but another way in which one can be under the Law and fallen from grace. I mean, I think there is a difference between a believer looking into the mirror of the word and realizing that they are failing God in some way and seeking HIS righteousness, as opposed to those who are seeking to establish their own righteousness through a checklist of the Law....?

The scriptures do warn and it is for our good to take them to heart. People can fall away by going back under the Law or also through wilfully choosing sin over their salvation. I think it's possible for some to grow weary and choose to walk away too. Others may grow bitter because of being disillusioned by seeing or being victims of hypocrisy in the church, etc. From what I've come across, I think there is no harder heart than those who once had faith but later become atheists for whatever their reasons...those I've come across are so bitter and angry and hostile to the faith now. Fear of the Lord can be our best friend in times of weakness or temptation, although that shouldn't be the only thing that motivates us overall.

 

[LoveYeshua]

The gospel was presented to the world at the time of the early church through a living testimony backed up by the Old Testament Scriptures. The written New Testament came later. Does our understanding of the gospel line up with the Scriptures?

Interesting video, thank you. It is true that the gospel is already found in the Torah. Jesus Himself said that the Scriptures speak of Him (John 5:39) and on the road to Emmaus He explained the things written about Him in the Law of Moses and the Prophets (Luke 24:27). The Torah truly points to Christ, the living Word.

But Jesus never said there were two laws. He said He came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). The same law of God continues, but now it is written in our hearts by the Spirit when we follow Christ in love and obedience. So the difference is not between two separate laws, but between obeying by human effort and obeying through a changed heart. It is also not true that the new covenant is “not about salvation.” Jesus said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). The new covenant brings forgiveness and new life; salvation is at its very center.

Struggling with sin does not mean someone is under the “first law.” Jesus said, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41). The walk of faith includes daily repentance and growth, not instant perfection.

The message that God will “circumcise the heart” (Deuteronomy 30:6) is true, and it fits what Jesus taught — that the pure in heart shall see God (Matthew 5:8). But we must keep the balance that Jesus gave: one law, one covenant fulfilled in Him, one salvation for all who believe and obey. In short, the Torah points to Christ, and Christ fulfills the Torah. The gospel is not a “second law,” but the same divine truth now written within by the Spirit of God.

 

[Behold]

IIt is also not true that the new covenant is “not about salvation.”

Imagine someone who claims to be a "chrisitan" stating that :

Paul's Gospel is "delusion"..

and that : "The Cross is not about Forgiveness"

and that : the "new covenant (Jesus's blood sacrifice) is not about Salvation".

And Episkopos has been here over 12 yrs selling all this incredible blasphemy while the Mods just walk on by........
And what is equal to that is that you have people on this forum who claim to be "chrisians" who support what he teaches, and defend it.
Its amazing what slithers unto a forum and says...>"yes, im a christian".

You have to pay attention reader, as there are a lot of people doing the devil's work on "christian forums" and not just on this one.

 

[Episkopos]

Interesting video, thank you. It is true that the gospel is already found in the Torah. Jesus Himself said that the Scriptures speak of Him (John 5:39) and on the road to Emmaus He explained the things written about Him in the Law of Moses and the Prophets (Luke 24:27). The Torah truly points to Christ, the living Word.

Yes.

But Jesus never said there were two laws. He said He came not to destroy the Law but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17).

There is only one law of God. But historically God presents His law on 2 levels. The first level of the law is to curtail the evil in men. The second law is by the power of the Spirit. Paul says...the LAW of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Don't be overly simplistic in looking for a bible verse that says there are 2 laws. It says "This second law" in Deuteronomy, if that helps

The same law of God continues, but now it is written in our hearts by the Spirit when we follow Christ in love and obedience.

The second law is the POWER from heaven (grace) that fulfills the law of God.

So the difference is not between two separate laws, but between obeying by human effort and obeying through a changed heart.

Actually the second law is by being translated into the kingdom realm to walk as Jesus walked...the law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus.

It is also not true that the new covenant is “not about salvation.”

Basic salvation (as an inheritance) is covered in the OT. Salvation from SIN is the purpose of NT gospel.

Jesus said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). The new covenant brings forgiveness and new life; salvation is at its very center.

Bad translation...the blood of Christ ATONES and liberates the person from the power of sin. In Him is no sin. So you have not yet experienced the second law yet.

Struggling with sin does not mean someone is under the “first law.”

It does. It means you are not yet under grace. Struggling with sin means you are still under the first law. Being under grace means being under the second law...that of life IN Christ Jesus. In Him is no sin.

Jesus said, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41). The walk of faith includes daily repentance and growth, not instant perfection.

Jesus was speaking to men under the law...who had not yet entered into the second law....the law of life IN Christ. Paul says...NO longer I...but Christ. That is NOT business as usual.

The message that God will “circumcise the heart” (Deuteronomy 30:6) is true, and it fits what Jesus taught — that the pure in heart shall see God (Matthew 5:8). But we must keep the balance that Jesus gave: one law, one covenant fulfilled in Him, one salvation for all who believe and obey. In short, the Torah points to Christ, and Christ fulfills the Torah. The gospel is not a “second law,” but the same divine truth now written within by the Spirit of God.

But without the power of the second law, all we know is that we are sinners based on a sensitive heart, Then either one becomes an enemy of the cross and claim a sinful holiness..or one surrenders to Christ fully and enters into Him by the Spirit to walk as He walked in resurrection life. He is our holiness.... BY entering into Him and the power of the second law. A life IN a life...an eye IN an eye.

Walking under the law in the first law..is a DISCIPLINED STRUGGLE.

Walking in the second law IS REST AND PEACE.

It is easy to get into the hard walk...and very hard to get into the easy walk...MY yoke is EASY says Jesus. But only a few are chosen to be translated into the higher walk in the Spirit. Obviously very few have that kind of faith. Of course you will say there are not 2 levels of faith either.

 

[Episkopos]

We must be careful of the natural mind and of taking things too literally, it will lead us astray of the mark. Scripture/truth needs to be spiritually discerned.

I love that verse too........to the believer I believe it is talking about the righteousness of humility through acknowledging that one's own righteousness falls short of the glory.......breaking up the fallow ground of our hearts is the righteousness of Godly sorrow that leads to God granting a real change through repentance. I believe we can apply it in a general way of those who have been made righteous continuing to seek and apprehend on earth the righteousness that has been imputed to us in heaven, as well as in specific ways to specific areas of our life and heart that we are needing and seeking to overcome in. Fallow ground is ground that currently unfruitful....we might consider hopefully that it's in a state of preparation.

To me I can see how that verse is speaking to the Jew first on one level regarding receiving the gospel........and on another level "then to the Gentile" (church) whose starting point is already having received the gospel and imputed righteousness, and our seeking to apprehend that for which Christ has apprehended us.

You are twisting all meaning of truth from the verse through an eisegesis based on a pre-conceived notion that is unbiblical. Your idea of discernment is actually a filtering through an indoctrination. The truth is far more simple and profound.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Imagine someone who claims to be a "chrisitan" stating that Paul's Gospel is "delusion".. and that "The Cross is not about Forgiveness" and that the "new covenant is not about salvation".
And Episkopos been here over 12 yrs telling people all this incredible blasphemy.......and what is equal to that is that you have people on this forum who claim to be "chrisiant" who support what he teaches.
Its amazing what comes to a forum and says...>"yes, im a christian".

You have to pay attention reader, as there are a lot of people doing the devil's work on "christian forums" and not just this one.

Yes I have had a few discussion with him in the past but I remember he does EXPLODE when he get comments that try and correct something wrong in what he teaches. So I expect the same here. and I know that many teach false doctrine on this site, I see it every day. As for Paul his writings are complex and sometimes misunderstood, I which he would have used a simpler language form like Jesus did.

Cheers.

 

[Episkopos]

Imagine someone who claims to be a "chrisitan" stating that :

Paul's Gospel is "delusion"..

It is your interpretation of Paul that is delusional. I line up perfectly with Paul's teachings. You twist and obfuscate as any false minister does.

and that : "The Cross is not about Forgiveness"

The cross is about atonement...freedom from sin...cleansing from sin. In Him is no sin. Forgiveness depends on us. If we don't forgive others...then we won't be forgiven. We reap as we sow.

and that : the "new covenant (Jesus's blood sacrifice) is not about Salvation".

The atonement is not about inheriting salvation...it is about salvation from sin. It is about future glory. The NT is about glory. The OT is about salvation (as an inheritance) How do we inherit life? Obey the commandments. How do we rule and reign with Christ. Believe INTO Christ and walk in His perfection (resurrection life)

Now all this is way over your head...so not only will you twist what I say...you have no idea of what the gospel is.

And Episkopos has been here over 12 yrs selling all this incredible blasphemy while the Mods just walk on by........

They put up with all your false naming and claiming, mocking the truth and slandering.

And what is equal to that is that you have people on this forum who claim to be "chrisians" who support what he teaches, and defend it.

A few here know the words of God. But most react from their indoctrination and call that "discernment"...of all things.

Its amazing what slithers unto a forum and says...>"yes, im a christian".

Is this your testimony?

You have to pay attention reader, as there are a lot of people doing the devil's work on "christian forums" and not just on this one.

And not just you, you mean.

 

[Behold]

The second law is the POWER from heaven (grace) that fulfills the law of God.

You dont know what you are talking about, as usual.

Listen, Grace does not fulfill the Law of God.

Christ fulfilled it, and said so........"I came to fulfill the law".

Actually the second law is by being translated into the kingdom realm to walk as Jesus walked...the law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus.

Your teaching is nonsense.

Listen, No one walks in the spirit to enter the KOG.

It happens like this......= A sinner is forgiven all sin, through the Blood Covenant, and then is Born again Spiritually by the Holy Spirit INTO the KOG.
That is how they are "Translated from DARKNESS.......>TO LIGHT".
That is how you enter it.

Salvation from SIN is the purpose of NT gospel.

More nonsense theology..

Listen., Salvation from sin is not the purpose of the NT Gospel.
The NT Gospel is Faith in Christ ... Justification BY Faith.......that allows God to forgive your sin, so that He can reconcille a SINNER, through The Blood of Jesus.. = birth them into spiritual union with Himself as "in Christ" and "one with God'.
The Purpose of Salvation is to restore a person back into spiritual union with God.

Bad translation...the blood of Christ ATONES

You keep trying to prove that '""""The Cross of Christ is not about Forgiveness.""""
So, unless your sins are forgiven, you are not "atoned".
Forgiveness of sin has to happen, or there is no Salvation for you.

Being under grace means being under the second law...that of life IN Christ Jesus. In Him is no sin.

Christians struggle with flesh only because they have not understood they are "made righteousess" having become "The Righteousness of God in Christ".
So, its a faith issue they have, not a sin issue, as "God hath made Jesus to be sin for US".......already., 2000 yrs ago.
= The Cross of Christ had already dealt with all our sin.

Then either one becomes an enemy of the cross and claim a sinful holiness.

Notice carefully reader...

An "enemy of the Cross" is a person who teaches this..

1.) Paul's Gospel is "delusion"..

2.) and that : "The Cross is not about Forgiveness"

3.) and that : the "new covenant (Jesus's blood sacrifice) is not about Salvation".

So, that would be you @Episkopos

 

[Episkopos]

Yes I have had a few discussion with him in the past but I remember he does EXPLODE when he get comments that try and correct something wrong in what he teaches. So I expect the same here. and I know that many teach false doctrine on this site, I see it every day. As for Paul his writings are complex and sometimes misunderstood, I which he would have used a simpler language form like Jesus did.

Cheers.

Explode? You have a vivid imagination. More like a fire, I would say. But people here are commenting on deeper things without any experience of spiritual life. Most here only know what it's like to sit on a pew on sunday..and they think that qualifies them to criticize things they have no experience of. But the truth goes out to any with some faith...and a will to check out the bible for themselves.

Of course without BEING spiritual, many things will be outside the grasp of even the most diligent seeking...since they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Behold]

It is your interpretation of Paul that is delusional. I line up perfectly with Paul's teachings. You twist and obfuscate as any false minister does.

"Justifification by faith".......is Paul's Gospel

"imputed righteousnes"......is Paul's Gospel;

"Abraham believed God and his faith was counted to Him as Righteousness" is Paul's theology. = """And it shall be imputed to us also, if we believe"""...is Paul's doctrine.

"The Gift of Righteousness".......is Paul's Gospel

"Gods righteousess imputed".....is Paul's Gospel.

"The Righteousness of GOD.........by FAITH"..... is Paul's Gospel.

= No interpretation needed., as its all BIBLE 101......that is : "the simplicity that is IN CHRIST"., is Paul's teaching.

Now, here you are.....according to Paul's teaching.. (Galatians 1:8).. "being ignorant of GOD's RIGHTEOUNESS........they go about tryng to establish their own righteousness"""..

That's you. @Episkopos

The cross is about atonement...freedom from sin..

The Cross is about FORGIVENESS of Sin, or your sins are not forgiven yet.
Christ's DEATH is offered for the forgiveness of your sin and your Salvation Testamony omitted this completely.
I realize you dont currently believe you need forgiveness of your sin, but one day you will believe it.

The atonement is not about inheriting salvation..

No one here on the forum, that ive read, stated that salvation is "inherited"
Ive never taught this, so this is more of your pipe dream delusion..

Salvaiton is "THE GIFT OF SALVATiON">.. = Paul's Gospel

A few here know the words of God.

Your own post does not incluse you.......as you have defined your false teaching as "MY Doctrine", and God knows it not Paul's Theology.
Its bizarre ranting.....that sounds crazy and demonic to Real Christians, because it so offends The Cross.
That's your ministry here, according to your previous Threads and Videos, and according to your next posts.

This is your Gospel @Episkopos

Paul's Gospel is "delusion"..

and that : "The Cross is not about Forgiveness"

and that : the "new covenant (Jesus's blood sacrifice) is not about Salvation".

 

[Episkopos]

"Justifification by faith".......is Paul's Gospel

"imputed righteousnes"......is Paul's Gospel;

"Abraham believed God and his faith was counted to Him as Righteousness" is Paul's theology. = """And it shall be imputed to us also, if we believe"""...is Paul's doctrine.

So far so good. As long as you are not justifying yourself with what Paul wrote...all is good.

"The Gift of Righteousness".......is Paul's Gospel

Yes....being translated int the kingdom realm... to walk in resurrection life.

"Gods righteousess imputed".....is Paul's Gospel.

No. That's your false interpretation. God does not impute to others a level of righteousness equal to His own.

"The Righteousness of GOD.........by FAITH"..... is Paul's Gospel.

By faith yes...the faith OF Christ to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

I don't think you are interested in what Paul meant.

= No interpretation needed., as its all BIBLE 101......that is : "the simplicity that is IN CHRIST"., is Paul's teaching.

Now, here you are.....according to Paul's teaching.. (Galatians 1:8).. "being ignorant of GOD's RIGHTEOUNESS........they go about tryng to establish their own righteousness"""..

And that's exactly what you are doing...establishing your own justification based on a bad reading of Paul.

That's you. @Episkopos



The Cross is about FORGIVENESS of Sin, or your sins are not forgiven yet.

False. You don't name and claim a forgiveness by believing in a forgiveness...unless it is fictional. Actually your sin remains...

Christ's DEATH is offered for the forgiveness of your sin and your Salvation Testamony omitted this completely.
I realize you dont currently believe you need forgiveness of your sin, but one day you will believe it.

A FREEDOM from sin. God has always forgiven people. He is merciful.

No one here on the forum, that ive read, stated that salvation is "inherited"
Ive never taught this, so this is more of your pipe dream delusion..

Salvaiton is "THE GIFT OF SALVATiON">.. = Paul's Gospel

You believe you "go to heaven" after you die. If the salvation is not NOW over sin...then there is only one salvation left...that of inheriting life AFTER you die.

You don't know the power of the gospel or the cross...just a theory based on an ideology that is invented by men that is neither righteous nor holy.

Your own post does not incluse you.......as you have defined your false teaching as "MY Doctrine", and God knows it not Paul's Theology.
Its bizarre ranting.....that sounds crazy and demonic to Real Christians, because it so offends The Cross.
That's your ministry here, according to your previous Threads and Videos, and according to your next posts.

This is your Gospel @Episkopos

Paul's Gospel is "delusion"..

and that : "The Cross is not about Forgiveness"

and that : the "new covenant (Jesus's blood sacrifice) is not about Salvation".

I said that the NT is about glory and the power to walk as Jesus walked. It is about salvation FROM SIN...not just salvation as in...you shall not die.

Try reading the bible. Read Ez. 18 and 33...the law of righteousness that describes who will be saved (in the future)

 

[Episkopos]

For any interested in actually reading the bible...find any verse in either testament where God IMPUTES His OWN righteousness to people. Not only is this not in the bible...it leads people very far from the path of life in reality and truth. The devil has a gospel too. He wants people to name and claim themselves into condemnation. He wants people to declare themselves righteous based on having certain beliefs and attempts at being under grace the same way (and worse) than the Pharisees did with attempts at the law.

 

[Lizbeth]

You are twisting all meaning of truth from the verse through an eisegesis based on a pre-conceived notion that is unbiblical. Your idea of discernment is actually a filtering through an indoctrination. The truth is far more simple and profound.

That Hosea verse agrees with this passage, especially the underlined verse:

1Jo 1:5-10
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In this context, the light that we are to walk is the light of God which searches and knows us ....it is talking about honesty and transparency before the Lord. "In Him is no darkness" in this context means nothing is hid from Him, He sees all. If we walk in darkness it means we are hiding things from Him instead of realizing and acknowledging our sins and shortcomings so that He can help us deal with them...forgive and cleanse, that we might manifest His righteousness instead. "In me, that is in my flesh, is no good thing." (Somewhere along the way I came to realize and see how my own righteousness falls short of the Lord's righteousness, and even often does more harm than good.)