The spirit doesn't need renewing Wick Stick.
It's the spirit, of man, that renews the soul.
Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture
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It's the spirit, of man, that renews the soul.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I suppose you must have some other interpretation of the quoted verse?
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
It seems to say the spirit needs renewing.
Ephesians 2:5-6 KJV
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 3:2-4 KJV
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
The body is grounded in this world,the spirit is grounded in the celestial realm, being a spiritual creation. We connect to the world by our body, we connect to God by our spirit. The body is a terrestrial being, the spirit is a celestial being. Like that.
Much love!
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Ok, I get what you were saying. My theology interprets these verses a little different than yours, but I do understand now.
Hi Jericho,,,
Been thinking a lot about this.
I believe we agree, basically, on the meaning of soul.
Man is a trichotomy: BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT.....
as per general Christian theology and confirmed in 1 Thessalonians 5:23
I'd say that BODY and SOUL makes a human person.
SPIRIT is that element that is added when one believes in God...
it is what makes man a spiritual person.
Both the soul - what let's a person BE that person differentiating him from others - and sprit are immortal...they never die.
The body dies,,,waiting for the resurrection of the body.
The reason I've been thinking on this is because, since the SOUL, if immortal, it means that it always has to be somewhere.
If a person is in a coma...is the soul and spirit with that person...or have they already left the body?
Those that have near-death experiences would say that the soul has left the body. (and spirit in some cases).
As for a coma....I don't know how we could be certain.
If it's not a deep coma...I can agree with you.
What if it's a deep coma and the person has no longer ANY cognative capability?
IF you're interested: (these are the best sources I find regarding the soul --- but it doesn't seem to answer the question- unless YOU can find it)
The term "mind" usually denotes this principle as the subject of our conscious states, while "soul" denotes the source of our vegetative activities as well. That our vital activities proceed from a principle capable of subsisting in itself, is the thesis of the substantiality of the soul: that this principle is not itself composite, extended, corporeal, or essentially and intrinsically dependent on the body, is the doctrine of spirituality. If there be a life after death, clearly the agent or subject of our vital activities must be capable of an existence separate from the body.
The belief in an animating principle in some sense distinct from the body is an almost inevitable inference from the observed facts of life. Even uncivilized peoples arrive at the concept of the soul almost without reflection, certainly without any severe mental effort. The mysteries of birth and death, the lapse of conscious life during sleep and in swooning, even the commonest operations of imagination and memory, which abstract a man from his bodily presence even while awake—all such facts invincibly suggest the existence of something besides the visible organism, internal to it, but to a large extent independent of it, and leading a life of its own.
source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Soul
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Faculties of the Soul
Article covers the meaning and classification
This is why the bible needs to be interpreted.
The new man is this:
A person becomes born from above.
He received the spirit of God...he become a spiritual creature in tune with God.
THIS now changes his SOUL.
The soul controls the MIND of a person....
the part of the person that is the unconsciousness..something that is being studied a lot right now.
It's the part of a person that cannot be touched, cut, felt, or examined.
It's the will of man, the emotions of man,,,,,
it's what makes us behave the way we do,,,think the way we do.
Romans 12:2
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
It's our SPIRIT that renews the MIND.
Our spirit does not need renewing...
it's like saying that the Holy Spirit dwelling in us requires renewing.
If you're interested I posted some good links in my post no. 146 (as to what the soul is - it may not apply to this discussion).
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
The difference in theology is I don't think of a 'celestial realm' or 'spiritual realm' as being an OTHER place from this reality. I think it's part and parcel of this reality.
As for Ephesians, I think Paul uses heavenlies (ἐπουρανίοις) there to talk about authority, rather than a place. He uses this word throughout the book.
In chapter 1, Jesus is seated at God's right hand to rule and reign... in the heavenlies.
Here in chapter 2, the Ephesians are awakened and placed in Christ Jesus. To me, this doesn't say that their spirits are sent someplace in another realm, but rather that their unity with Christ causes them to participate in His reign, because He now works through them.
Chapter 3 builds on that idea:
10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly [places].
Chapter 6 brings back this idea, and introduces a new wrinkle... there are rulers and authorities in the heavenlies that are wicked and the Ephesians are meant to resist and perhaps overthrow them:
[Eph 6:12 ESV] 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
This is already long, so I'm going to duck explaining Colossians.
Hello GodsGrace, that is how I understand it, though not everyone agrees.
I have given this a lot of thought too since the passing of my father. I think this gets into the larger discussion of where the consciousness resides. That is a difficult question to answer even for the secular world. Scientists don't know for sure because science deals with the material, tangible world, whereas consciousness is intangible and subjective. It obviously involves the brain, but is it purely a biological process? If NDEs are to be believed, then the answer is no. In some accounts, they were able to accurately describe their surroundings and what was happening to them when they were supposed to be dead or unconscious.
Since it's impossible to know for sure, I can only offer a theory. I think the brain acts as an interface of sorts for the consciousness, which resides elsewhere. Where? I don't know, possibly outside our three spatial dimensions (in the spiritual realm). There are certain physical and biological processes that can interfere with that connection, such as during sleep, comas, or with brain damage, but that connection isn't lost until death. Once the body dies, the connection is severed, and our consciousness unplugs, as it were, and becomes fully aware of the spiritual world around us. If that is true, then a person's soul/spirit in a coma would remain with them until they died. If you've seen the movie Avatar, it can be used as a rough analogy of how the body/brain acts as a receptacle for our spirit/soul/consciousness (whatever term you want to use).
I would say the same thing.
I'm of the opinion that Adam lived in an undivided realm, and that with the fall, the realm was divided terrestrial and celestial, call it veil between the two.
That veil is partly removed in Christ, as we now have a spirit that is connected to Him.
I think in the new creation, it will again be an undivided realm.
Much love!
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
From left field... have you ever seen the movie Constantine starring Keanu Reeves? I ask because the movie has a visualization similar to what you describe. The main character goes to hell, but it isn't someplace else. He's still in the same city, except everything is on fire and there's demons everywhere. It's more like a second layer in the same stack than a true elsewhere.
No I've not seen it. Maybe a little further into that field, have you read Frank Perretti? This Present Darkness, Piercing the Darkness, these are about warfare between angels and demons over the lives of the people. Kind of the same way, showing a "spiritual overlay" as it were.
Much love!
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
This Excellent study could be helpful in that area?:This is already long, so I'm going to duck explaining Colossians.
Complete In Christ!
Amen.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I've heard his name but haven't read any of his books. Most of my reading these days tends to be history/non-fiction.
I used to be a fan of science-fiction-quasi-horror stuff - Dean Koontz, Stephen King, etc - but I kinda cut it out because it doesn't fall into the category of whatsoever-is-good.
Whether or not others agree seems to be of little importance.
It's what the mainline churches teach.
Some believe in the dichotomy of man: BODY, SOUL/SPIRIT (combined).
Others believe in the trichotomy of man: BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT
I like the trichotomy better because it helps to understand our composition better.
If the consciousness were purely a biological process, it would reside somewhere in the body.
But, as you've correctly posted...it is not. I was watching an interesting program on YouTube where a neuroscientist or surgeon was explaining about some persons that are born with very little brain matter, or that have had to have half of their brain removed (either the right side or the left side) and the person retains their personality and belief system (world paradigm). He was saying that this is how he became Christian.
What made me rethink this is that, as you've said, the NDE persons seem to float out of their bodies.
Instead, those in a coma do not. They might "hear" and be very slightly conscious of things going on around them (not deep comas).
So it would seem that in a dead person the soul/spirit actually leave the body...
In a comatose person, they do not.
I'd have to agree and like this theory.
Agreed.
Saw Avatar many years ago. I think you mean the original one.
Will have to watch it again.
Thanks for a nice exchange.
Not easy to come by these days.
I wouldn't categorize Stephen King as sci-fi.
Sci-fi is really good if you read the top writers.
Gets you thinking about a lot of things and some even foresaw what is happening today (socially/politically).
I used to read all the time, sci fi, King, Koontz, spy stuff, all kinds of thrillers and such. One day God touched me, and I lost all interest in reading books other than the Bible, and such other reading as to help me understand the Bible, but 99.9% of all my reading is the Bible itself.
And this forum.
Much love!
No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
That is misleading. He said, I'd rather be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Not, death = immediately in heaven. Everyone would rather be absent from this body and rather to be present with Christ. The entire context is about receiving our heavenly tent which believers will get at the resurrection, not at death.
Since you believe death = immediately in heaven (are we wandering around as disembodied spirits?) and you neglected to mention this verse below, I'd love to hear from you what it means?
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
Id also mention John 5:28-29.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation
Notice that those in the graves, the dead, hear his voice. They aren't in Heaven.
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No Pre-TB
Well-Known Member
That is not accurate.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The dead rise first. The Greek uses the word protos for first in time or sequence.
Strong's
próton: firstly (in time, place, order, or importance) -- before, at the beginning, chiefly (at, at the) first (of all).
epeita: thereafter -- after that(-ward), then.
Barnes says, The word here rendered "then" (ἔπειτα epeita), does not necessarily mean that this would occur immediately. It properly marks succession in time, and means "afterward, next, next in the order of events;" Luke 16:7; Galatians 1:21; James 4:14.
After the dead rise, it then uses the word "then" to show the next step in the order of things. The dead rise first. Then, after that event, the living will be harpazo'd. And a careful study would show you that the passage is actually against Pre-trib.
Those who are alive and remain...The word for remain means survive as well as "last in a race". So let me ask you, what are the living surviving from that everyone else died and is part of the resurrection of the dead? The word, perileipomai, is used only 2 times in the NT. But it is found 4 other places outside the Bible and in every single time its surviving calamity which does not fit with pre-Trib but does fit with other positions. One example when the word is used outside the Bible is by Josephus in his Wars of the Jews. He describes those that "perileipomai" the slaughter from the Romans. Another example was a King that was dying of a plague. He uses "perileipomai" to describe those friends of his gathered around him on his death bed that haven't died from the plague when everyone else did.
examples:
1. Plutarch, Pericles 38.3
2. Papyrus P.Oxy. 1380
3. Josephus, Wars of the Jews 3.343
4. Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 20.8.2
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