Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[marks]

Hey Captain Obvious did you know the sky is blue?...lol...just joking.

I thought you may already know this, just to mention it for whomever may be reading along.

I have already mentioned I agree with imputed righteous by grace through faith.

Yes, I know. All good! And a good time to say . . . I'm glad you've come to this forum!

Edit to add . . . I see you've been here since 2009, before me!

seriously, I was trying to illustrate the difference of degree in the various levels. Is that something you see?

Revelation 22:11 KJV
11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Ephesians 2:3 KJV
3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Ephesians 4:24-25 KJV
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

He that is being unjust is fulfilling the desires of the mind. He that is being filthy is fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

I like Ephesians 4:24-25 as it demonstrates righteousness and holiness. Righteous is speaking truth to others, holiness is living according to God's intent, being set aside for His purposes, in this case, He has made us members of one other. Living according to God's intent is to live in holiness. Doing what is right because we are living according to His intent is righteousness.

In the first part, unjust, filthy, this is, "what is your flavor of sin". In the second part, this is the one in whom God is working, establishing us in holiness to work righteousness.

Much love!

 

[shepherdsword]

I thought you may already know this, just to mention it for whomever may be reading along.

No, I was joking, it is a good observation. It deserves a thread all it's own. The active voice shows that the evil is something we do and the passive voice shows righteousness is something that is being imparted to us. My petty acts of attempted goodness are insufficient to justify me before an awesome and Holy God. I am thankful he sees me as something better than I actually am...instead He sees what He will transform me to be.

 

[marks]

No, I was joking, it is a good observation. It deserves a thread all it's own. The active voice shows that the evil is something we do and the passive voice shows righteousness is something that is being imparted to us. My petty acts of attempted goodness are insufficient to justify me before an awesome and Holy God. I am thankful he sees me as something better than I actually am...instead He sees what He will transform me to be.

I would sooner say, He sees the inner man He created in you, patterned after Himself, in righteousness and true holiness.

I think the transformation that's happening, well,

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 KJV
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The corruptible will "put on" incorruption, the mortal will "put on" immortality. Putting immortality on mortality means the mortal properties are overwhelmed by the immortal properties so that it's transformed to immortality.

Ephesians 4:22-24 KJV
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Putting on the new man is to overwhelm the old man with the properties of the new man. The old man, the man of flesh, is already condemned, already executed, but these are spiritual realities that don't appear to our senses. We don't see that.

God, on the other hand, does see this. He sees our dead flesh man, He sees our living spirit man,

"therefore it is no more I, but sin that lives in me"

And He deals with us accordingly, that we are newly created holy and righteous beings, and our means of interacting in this world is through that corrupt and dead flesh man.

My favorite analogy is that we used to be wrecked car careening about, a corrupt driver bent on destruction. Then God creates a new driver, but he's still in this wrecked car. Over time, he learns to control it better, and even effects some repairs.

We see the mixture that comes from our spirit/flesh being, but God understands that the evil is from the flesh, and we are no longer the flesh. We are the spirit man, reconciled to God in Jesus Christ.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

He denies that we walk in the Spirit by faith.

"It is easy to get into the hard walk...and very hard to get into the easy walk...MY yoke is EASY says Jesus. But only a few are chosen to be translated into the higher walk in the Spirit. Obviously very few have that kind of faith. Of course you will say there are not 2 levels of faith either."

Romans 5:1-5 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

It's the same faith. We have already received the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, Who already enables us to walk in the Spirit, if that is what we are choosing/trusting Him for.

Galatians 5:22-26 KJV
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26) Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

God is not dishonest, nor is He disengenous, which is just another way of saying dishonest. The reason why He tells us to walk in the Spirit is because we can, as we trust in Him.

What prevents us from walking in the Spirit is that we attempt to live in different ways, that the Bible calls walking according to flesh, which includes us attempting to make ourselves acceptible, or more acceptible to God by our own works, which we have chosen to do.

What this one teaches is that we have to do works to be accepted by God, Who maybe or maybe not will cause us to walk in the Spirit, and this is directly refuted in these and other passages. He points people in the opposite direction of faith in Christ.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity . . .

When we release ourselves without reservation, knowing we cannot add to Christ's death, this is the faith that allows us access into the grace in which we stand.

Much love!

I do believe we are to seek to obey the Lord in sincerity and keep His commandments the best we know how.....according to wherever we are in our walk..."whereto we have already attained". Because we want to be found pleasing to Him and for the sake of truth and righteousness. And I consider the end goal to be a complete surrender and consecration.

But some here are forgetting the bible says we ARE in the Spirit if we have the Spirit, and we who believe HAVE entered His rest. There is the "yes but not necessarily yet" of things to consider.

 

[Lizbeth]

If we confess our sins...people all over the world do this....realizing they fall short of loving their neighbour and God.

What people are you talking about here? And to which God or god do they confess their sins?

Something to mention, these verbs are Active voice. The unjust one, the filthy one, they continue to be unjust, and filthy. What they are doing.


These verbs are passive voice, this is being done to us,

View attachment 71498

Much love!

Lovely! And I think that is the wonderful grace in which we "stand". (If we think of simply standing as being a passive activity.)

 

[marks]

I do believe we are to seek to obey the Lord in sincerity and keep His commandments the best we know how.....according to wherever we are in our walk..."whereto we have already attained". Because we want to be found pleasing to Him and for the sake of truth and righteousness. And I consider the end goal to be a complete surrender and consecration.

Amen!

Philippians 3:16 KJV
Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

That rule being,

Philippians 3:8-15 KJV
8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15) Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

But some here are forgetting the bible says we ARE in the Spirit if we have the Spirit, and we who believe HAVE entered His rest. There is the "yes but not necessarily yet" of things to consider.

Another amen!

Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

I am not so sure holiness isn't a level. There seem to be different levels of behavior and fruit bearing

Rv 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

1)unjust
2)filthy
3)righteous
4)holy

Mk 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

1)30 fold
2)60 fold
3)100 fold

Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1)good
2)acceptable
3) perfect

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

1)measure
2)stature
3)fullness

Just pondering out loud, I don't know for sure but I want to mention just in case.......Unjust is a way of living/behaving....filthy is a standing or condition. Righteous is a way of living/behaving....holy is a standing or condition.......?

 

[shepherdsword]

Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Much love!

Amen or "Oh me" I mean, could this also imply the reverse? That if I am walking in the flesh I do not have the Spirit? If it doesn't mean that then what are the implications of walking in the flesh? I know, I know, that may be a total errant position to take. However, if there is even a shred of truth to it then we should fear walking in it.(that is the flesh) This is why people like Epi are good. They make you think and consider other possibilities.

 

[Lizbeth]

That's not what that means. You are trying to use a human logic..and whatever doesn't fit that logic you "spiritualize". But that spiritualization is still at the level of human logic. You are missing a whole dimension of the Spirit by claiming to apprehend something you have yet to be apprehended for.

Please expound your understanding of that verse and its context..."God calleth those things which be not as though they are."

 

[Lizbeth]

"He is faithful and just" (and merciful) to forgive us our sins.. this is an OT standard under the first law...that of doing the best we can and being honest will the failures that a self-effort brings. God is not AGAINST our self-efforts. He hates the dishonesty of trying to cover these failings up. If we confess our sins and seek to forsake them...then He forgives us. Old Testament.

..."And to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness". This is a NT standard...the second law...by translation by the resurrection life and power of Christ into a walk in His perfection. The cleansing (atonement) in the OT was ceremonial only in nature...a marker until the power in the blood of Christ could actually sanctify people.

Is there no forgiveness under the new covenant then? On the contrary, I thought that a better sacrifice has wrought better things than the old covenant....we might call it a better forgiveness. One that cleanses the conscience once and for all. We are not under the Law.

 

[shepherdsword]

Please expound your understanding of that verse and its context..."God calleth those things which be not as though they are."

It's a common observation throughout scripture that God doesn't call things the way WE see them. He calls it as HE sees it. He called Gideon a "mighty man of valor" when he was hiding in a hole threshing wheat. He called Abram...Abraham when he didn't have a single child. It was said of Sarah that she judged God faithful when He promised her a son in her old age but those that know the story know she laughed big time when she heard it...when confronted about her laughing she lied...yet she made the faith hall of fame in Heb 11. and last but not least...while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us. Yes indeed...God DOES call things that are not as though they are.

 

[marks]

Amen or "Oh me" I mean, could this also imply the reverse? That if I am walking in the flesh I do not have the Spirit?

There is only one place I know that speaks of a regenerated person "walking in the flesh",

2 Corinthians 10:2-3 KJV
2) But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Paul speaks in terms of "walking in the flesh", and "walking according to the flesh". In vs 2 and 3, the same word is used, kata, translated according to in vs 2, and after in vs. 3.

We can see in this that while Paul lives in his flesh body, he doesn't live according to its pattern, and he doesn't war in the fleshy way.

He lives in flesh, but does not live according to flesh.

If it doesn't mean that then what are the implications of walking in the flesh? I know, I know, that may be a total errant position to take. However, if there is even a shred of truth to it then we should fear walking in it.(that is the flesh) This is why people like Epi are good. They make you think and consider other possibilities.

Galatians 5:25 KJV
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

In this verse we see that we are admonished to walk in the Spirit, considering that we already live in the Spirit. So, I'd have to answer that walking according to the flesh does not mean we are not in the Spirit. It means we are not walking according to the Spirit.

And this is why epi is harmful, because he does not consider or give Scriptural answers. Instead he points you back to works, to gain your salvation.

"then we should fear walking in it." If that fear is of the nature of, "I must avoid walking in the flesh lest I lose the Spirit (which means returning to spiritual death), this is a faith-killing legalism, and will push us to walking according to the flesh, trying to buy my salvation (continued salvation) by my "works".

Salvation is not found in what we do, it's found in what Jesus did.

The implictions of walking in the flesh are loss of fruitfulness, loss of maturity, loss of reward, loss of fellowship, as we turn away from God. It means we may create for ourselves painful and devastating conditions in our lives. Or God may do such to chasten us.

My thinking is that God's intent for us is so much higher than what we see for ourselves we'd cry a million tears if we knew what we have lost though our lack of total commitment to Him. At 64 years old, I feel this keenly!

"forgetting what is behind, reaching into what is ahead . . ."

Much love!

 

[shepherdsword]

There is only one place I know that speaks of a regenerated person "walking in the flesh",

2 Corinthians 10:2-3 KJV
2) But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Paul speaks in terms of "walking in the flesh", and "walking according to the flesh". In vs 2 and 3, the same word is used, kata, translated according to in vs 2, and after in vs. 3.

We can see in this that while Paul lives in his flesh body, he doesn't live according to its pattern, and he doesn't war in the fleshy way.

He lives in flesh, but does not live according to flesh.


Galatians 5:25 KJV
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

In this verse we see that we are admonished to walk in the Spirit, considering that we already live in the Spirit. So, I'd have to answer that walking according to the flesh does not mean we are not in the Spirit. It means we are not walking according to the Spirit.

And this is why epi is harmful, because he does not consider or give Scriptural answers. Instead he points you back to works, to gain your salvation.

"then we should fear walking in it." If that fear is of the nature of, "I must avoid walking in the flesh lest I lose the Spirit (which means returning to spiritual death), this is a faith-killing legalism, and will push us to walking according to the flesh, trying to buy my salvation (continued salvation) by my "works".

Salvation is not found in what we do, it's found in what Jesus did.

The implictions of walking in the flesh are loss of fruitfulness, loss of maturity, loss of reward, loss of fellowship, as we turn away from God. It means we may create for ourselves painful and devastating conditions in our lives. Or God may do such to chasten us.

My thinking is that God's intent for us is so much higher than what we see for ourselves we'd cry a million tears if we knew what we have lost though our lack of total commitment to Him. At 64 years old, I feel this keenly!

"forgetting what is behind, reaching into what is ahead . . ."

Much love!

I'll be 64 next May...I'm a spring chicken next to you...NOT......

 

[marks]

I'll be 64 next May...I'm a spring chicken next to you...NOT......

Oh, you young ones!!



Filled with vim and vigor!

 

[Episkopos]

Please expound your understanding of that verse and its context..."God calleth those things which be not as though they are."

God sees all...future, past. For Him, everything is already determined. But we have no agency to do that. We don't know what we will be......that's why the wise fear and tremble. It's one thing to be saved...but quite another to be saved as a vessel of honour (as opposed to being a vessel of dishonour and shame)

To call something that isn't as if it is a presumptuous sin...a lie. David wanted to be saved from such...even as he experienced God's blessings and His touch. Learning humility and the fear of the Lord PRESERVES the blessings we have been given...and opens the possibility for more.

When one experiences both the goodness and severity of God, one trembles.

 

[Episkopos]

It's a common observation throughout scripture that God doesn't call things the way WE see them. He calls it as HE sees it. He called Gideon a "mighty man of valor" when he was hiding in a hole threshing wheat. He called Abram...Abraham when he didn't have a single child. It was said of Sarah that she judged God faithful when He promised her a son in her old age but those that know the story know she laughed big time when she heard it...when confronted about her laughing she lied...yet she made the faith hall of fame in Heb 11. and last but not least...while we were yet sinners Jesus died for us. Yes indeed...God DOES call things that are not as though they are.

God has agency to do that....but we don't. Our role is to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Jack]

Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah​

Study the NT. It's God's roadmap to His Kingdom!

 

[Episkopos]

Is there no forgiveness under the new covenant then?

Of course there is...but that's not what is the "new" in the New Covenant.

On the contrary, I thought that a better sacrifice has wrought better things than the old covenant....we might call it a better forgiveness.

Not a better forgiveness....but a better holiness. Not just being set apart in order to get used to being different...but the real reason for the training...to be holy since God is holy.

One that cleanses the conscience once and for all. We are not under the Law.

The law is a gauge that shows us what kind of walk we are in. Do we covet? Then we are still under the law.

 

[shepherdsword]

God sees all...future, past. For Him, everything is already determined. But we have no agency to do that. We don't know what we will be......that's why the wise fear and tremble. It's one thing to be saved...but quite another to be saved as a vessel of honour (as opposed to being a vessel of dishonour and shame)

To call something that isn't as if it is a presumptuous sin...a lie. David wanted to be saved from such...even as he experienced God's blessings and His touch. Learning humility and the fear of the Lord PRESERVES the blessings we have been given...and opens the possibility for more.

When one experiences both the goodness and severity of God, one trembles.

Amen. There is a form of "neo-Pharisaism" that arrogantly proclaims virtue that isn't really there. It's the other side of the "God calls things that are not" coin. Only in some cases it's not God who is doing the calling but the flesh of man.

Lam 3:37 Who is he that saith and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?

It's always wise to keep a humble attitude and bow our head instead of saying" I thank God I am not as other men"

Lk 18:10-14
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased. Our new covenant doesn't exempt us from this.

 

[ProDeo]

God has agency to do that....but we don't. Our role is to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Agreed....

1Petr 4:18 And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”