Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[WPM]

What the Scripture nowhere support is that the Devil is a supernatural being that was once a good angel in Heaven, but was cast out of heaven and now (sorta) omnipresent where he is able to inhabit reptiles and billions of unsaved people on Earth simultaneously...

Look ... Christ talked to and rebuked so many evil spirits in men when He came to Israel to redeem them, all symbolizing not that there was a bunch of supernatural beings that had taken over their bodies making these people insane, physically ill or they were physically necromancers, but that in their spirit they were evil.

Truth is that I've come to believe lately is that God did not create Satan at all. Not as evil, nor as angel of God who disobeyed God and became an evil spirit.

I believe the darkness that was before God spoke light into the darkness is a metaphor for evil that would be called Satan, the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world.

I do NOT deny Satan is spirit, not a spirit, but spirit.
The only personhood that Satan can and does achieve is when he takes up residence within the hearts and minds of humans.

The serpent — also called Satan or the Devil — represents the spirit of man, the spirit of disobedience.

what is called “Satan” in each person is their own rebellious spirit — the nature inherited from Adam’s fall. It is not “one great red dragon” controlling everyone, but the collective manifestation of human depravity.

The teaching above promoted by a couple of posters on this board is more in line with modern liberal Atheistic Psychology thinking today or established Christadelphianism than biblical Christianity.

The modern psychological model

The modern psychological model views the symptoms described in biblical narratives—such as speaking in multiple voices, exhibiting different personalities, and displaying extreme behavioral changes—as consistent with dissociative identity disorder rather than literal demonic possession.

Christadelphians

Christadelphians do not believe in a supernatural, personal devil, but rather view the "devil" and "Satan" as personifications of sin, evil human nature, and temptation. They interpret these terms to represent the sinful inclinations within individuals, or sometimes a group of people or a political power acting as an opponent. According to this belief, sin originates from within a person's own desires, and the "devil" is not an external being with magical powers, but a metaphorical representation of the struggle against God's will.

The truth!

Do you realize, Satan is not a physical being? He is an angel. He is an invisible spirit. He is a real demonic angelic entity. He is not merely an abstract influence. Even though Satan is an angel of darkness, 2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14). Demons are fallen angels. They operate in the invisible realm. Their allegiance is to Satan. When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it sometimes includes the phrase “and his angels.” They are depicted as a collective whole. They move and fight as a unitary army. You cannot divide Satan from the fate of his angels. For example, Jesus describes them in Matthew 25:41 as “the devil and his angels.” Revelation 12:7 describes them as “the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.”

Job 1:6-7: "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

We can see how the demonic host operates as a collective whole.

Demons are fallen angels

Jud 1:6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates: “God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Gr. tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This is talking about angels that sinned at the beginning and therefore fell. Adam and Eve were not angels. They are not held in "everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” God redeemed them. He made an atoning sacrifice for them in the Garden and gave them a righteous covering. Who else is this speaking about than Satan and his demons?

Revelation 12:1-4 shows Satan and his devils being eternally evicted from heaven. Interestingly the demonic angels are depicted as “stars.” It reads: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon ... And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.”

In Revelation 12:4, 1/3 of the angels sided with Satan in his rebellion. They sided with him when he fell, and are part of the kingdom of darkness.

Job 38:4-7 tells us, speaking about the beginning of time, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

Revelation 9:1 says: “I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the abyss.”

It seems correct to view the flying star in view here as an elect angel. Remember, the key or authority no longer belongs to Satan. He was defeated. Christ and His angels exercise that now within the invisible realm. We exercise it upon the earth.

It is clear that stars are used by John in Revelation as symbols of angels. A falling star is a common easily-recognized natural symbol that is used in a spiritual way here to describe an elect angel descending from heaven before the end of time to open the pit to release Satan and his demons from their restraint in order to restrict the great commission.

 

[WPM]

Satan is the representative head of the kingdom of darkness

When Scripture speaks about Satan he is the representative head of the whole kingdom of darkness. The binding of Satan constituted the binding of his demons. The curtailment of Satan involved the curtailment of the hordes of hell. Satan's defeat was their defeat. When Satan was bound, the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). When Satan is released prior to the second coming so also is the whole kingdom of darkness (including the beast and every demon).

Scripture often sums up our battle with the kingdom of darkness as simply being a fight with Satan. That is because he is the representative head of the demonic realm. When the Bible says “resist the devil, and he will flee from you” this is not limited to Satan, it is talking about the whole demonic realm. John Calvin says, “He (Jesus) speaks of the devil according to the usual practice of Scripture, in the singular number, not because there is but one, but because they all form one community which cannot be supposed to be without a head.”

We learn a lot about the character of Satan through Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

While Scripture speaks of wicked leaders and wicked kingdoms, they are ultimately representative of Satan and the kingdom of darkness. For example, "the king of Babylon" in Isaiah 14:3-11 and the “King of Tyre” in Ezekiel 28 are definite allusions to Satan. The human kings were simply ungodly hosts by which Satan implemented his designs and manifested his evil. He has been doing this from the beginning. They were conduits by which he perpetrated his evil.

Isaiah 14:3-11: “And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing ... All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.”

Isaiah 14:12-17 continues, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning [Heb. hêylêl bênor shachar shining one (or the morning star) son of the dawn]! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

This is speaking about Satan.

• Satan lost his exalted place in heaven when he rebelled.
• This talks about a future day when we will see the devil for who he really is. That is the day that we will know even as we are known. It is when we are perfected. Satan will be exposed for the fool he is.
• We also see here, Satan will not willingly let his followers go. He keeps them imprisoned.

The king of Babylon never fell from heaven. No human did. To argue that is ludicrous. He was also not called Lucifer, the shining one, the morning star, son of the dawn. This can only refer to an angel. What is more, only a fallen angel could fulfil this description: "fallen from heaven." Elect angels are not fallen angels.

Ezekiel 28:12-19: “Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”

Ezekiel was not just speaking to the king of Tyrus but to the spiritual power that controlled him and worked through him – Satan. By addressing the human king and his spiritual ruler simultaneously, Ezekiel shows how Satan's pride and fall are mirrored in the king's actions and ultimate destruction.

• First of all, the king of Tyrus was still alive here when this was being spoken.
• Second, he definitely was not in the Garden of Eden. That would have made him thousands of years old, which is ridiculous.
• Thirdly, the king of Tyrus was not an anointed guardian cherub. He was a human being. Cherubs are angelic creatures.
• Fourthly, the king of Tyrus was not born blameless or sinless. He was born with original sin. He was born depraved.
• Fifthly, the king of Tyrus was not in the mountain of God, a reference to the direct presence of God in heaven, neither was he on Mount Horeb, the earthly mountain of God with Moses.
• Sixthly, there is nowhere the king of Tyrus corrupted the wisdom he had been given by God in the splendour of God’s presence. He was always an out and out heathen king.
• Seventhly, the king of Tyrus was not cast out of God’s holy mount to the ground.

These 2 kings were simply surrogates who Satan used. They were his evil ambassadors. Satan worked through them. He spoke through them. He is still doing the same today.

• Satan was in Eden, the Garden of God (v. 13)
• Satan was an anointed guardian cherub (v. 14)
• Satan was blameless in his ways from the day he was created, till unrighteousness was found in him. (v. 15)
• Satan was proud because of his beauty. He corrupted God’s wisdom for the sake of his own prideful splendour.
• Satan was “the anointed” or “covering cherub” who was laid low by pride and expelled by God from heaven before creation. cast to the ground, with the evil angels (v. 17)

Satan is the king of the kingdom of darkness

You cannot divorce a king from his kingdom. A kingdom without a king is not a kingdom.

Satan is described as “the prince [Gr. archōn or ruler] of the devils” in Matthew 9:34, 12:24 and Mark 3:22. Matthew 9:34 extends the name to “Beelzebub the prince [Gr. archōn or ruler] of the devils.” Jesus describes Satan in John 12:31, 14:30 and John 16:11 as “the prince [Gr. archōn or ruler] of this world.” He is described in Ephesians 2:2 as “the prince [Gr. archō or ruler] of the power of the air.”

In Revelation 9:10-11 the scorpion-like demonic host (that is shown to be currently incarcerated within the abyss) are said to have “a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

This can be none other than Satan. Strong's says: “Apolluon means a destroyer (i.e. Satan).” Before we go any further, it is worth noting, Jesus likened demons to scorpions in Luke 10:19.

Isa 27:1: "In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."

Job 41:1 & 34: "Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? … He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride."

This again proves that Leviathan (Satan) is king over the kingdom of darkness.

 

[WPM]

Men and angels are different

The Bible distinguishes between angels and men. They are different. They are distinct. Angels are heavenly beings that are sent on assignment from God to serve His purposes, and protect His servants. They operate in the invisible realm.

Scripture repeatedly distinguishes between angels and humans.

1Co 4:9 for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Jesus became man not an angel. Scripture is careful at distinguishing between the two.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

In heaven, God's elect are distinguished from the angels:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Jesus taught:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Are humans coming to gather us at the second coming?

Ephesians 6:12 tells us what we do not fight against, then tells us what we do fight against.

• It tells us: “we wrestle not against flesh and blood.” This is talking about humans.
• It then tells us that we wrestle “against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

This also distinguished between angels and men. They are not the same. Satan and his demons are clearly real evil beings/entities (with personalities) not the abstract evil within unregenerate man. We are not fighting a natural physical holy war today against humans like they did in the Old Testament. We are exclusively fighting a spiritual war in the heavenlies. We are not fighting with carnal power or human ingenuity. We are not fighting politicians and governments.

 

[WPM]

This is not a new battle. It is an ancient one:

Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Matt 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

TS and rwb are in horrible company. I trust God has mercy upon you both.

God's elect are distinguished from the angels.

Matthew 22:29-32 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jesus is talking about how angels are non-sexual spirits. They are not physical like us. They do not procreate like humans and animals do. But when we get to heaven and have our glorified bodies we shall be like them. There will be no marriage there and no procreation.

2 Kings 19:35 tells us: “the angel of the LORD went out, and killed in the camp of the one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead.”

What human being in history slew 185,000 men in one night?

So, if this is not a human, who or what is this angel? Where did it come from?

Matt 26:52-53

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Who were these angels? Where were they located?

Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
Mat 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Mat 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Who was this angel? Where was it from? Was is a visible being?

In 2 Kings 6 the king of Syria prepared an impressive army for the purpose of nullifying Elisha.

2 Kings 6:

15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

2 Kings 6:16 And he (Elisha) answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

Please see: these 2 men are looking at the same scene but one is seeing things from an earthly perspective (the servant), the other from a heavenly perspective (Elisha). Evidently, they were not in the same place with God. Elisha’s servant was too attached to the natural realm, whereas Elisha was connected to the spiritual.

2 Kings 6:17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Are these real angels? Are they real entities distinct to man? Were they heavenly beings? Were these visible beings? Or, where these figments of these men's imaginations?

 

[MatthewG]

Satan was the Jewish people at the time trying to obstruct God being reached, by worshiping the Law more than the Creator...

You see this all through out the Gospel narrative. At least it's my opinion and suggestion.

Human beings are born with good and evil already in them... So I do believe Satan is done away with including the his angels.

I do believe people loved darkness, and thats why the Jews loved darkness and hated the light - and killed Jesus.

What is your take? Satan was the Religious Zealots of that time.

Satan offers all the kingdoms to Yeshua. (Satan was the religious Jewish Pharisees, that would have given all to him if he would have just bowed down and worshiped them.) The biblical verses that describe Satan offering Jesus the kingdoms of the world are found in Matthew 4:8-10 and Luke...

www.christianityboard.com

im not an anti-semite.

 

[Muna]

I never met a Christadelphian before I met @Hiddenthings (who might be on vacation) sounds like the same doctrine, which is more or less that Satan is not a personal being, and that evil spirits are just forms of being skitzo or something. I dont know all of their doctrines.

Maybe they are Christadelphians?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have never seen such twisting of Scripture in my life. What is next?

Do you realize, Satan is not a physical being? He is an angel. He is an invisible spirit. He is a real demonic angelic entity. He is not an influence. Even though Satan is an angel of darkness, 2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14). Demons are fallen angels. They operate in the invisible realm. Their allegiance is to Satan. When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it sometimes includes the phrase “and his angels.” They are depicted as a collective whole. They move and fight as a unitary army. You cannot divide Satan from the fate of his angels. For example, Scripture describes them in Matthew 25:41 as “the devil and his angels,” in Revelation 12:7 as “the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.”

Job 1:6-7: "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

We can see how the demonic host operates as a collective whole.

Demons are fallen angels

Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Jud 1:6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates: “God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Gr. tartaroo], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

Hello! This is talking about angels that sinned at the beginning and therefore fell. Adam and Eve were not angels. They are not held in "everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.” God redeemed them. He made an atoning sacrifice for them in the Garden and gave them a righteous covering. Who else is this speaking about than Satan and his demons?

Revelation 12:1-4 shows Satan and his devils being eternally evicted from heaven. Interestingly the demonic angels are depicted as “stars.” It reads: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon ... And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.”

In Revelation 12:4, 1/3 of the angels sided with Satan in his rebellion. They sided with him when he fell, and are part of the kingdom of darkness.

Job 38:6-7 tells us, speaking about the beginning of time, “Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

It seems correct to view the flying star in view here as an elect angel. Remember, the key or authority no longer belongs to Satan. He was defeated. Christ and His angels exercise that now within the invisible realm. We exercise it upon the earth.

Revelation 9:1 says: “I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the abyss.”

It is clear that stars are used by John in Revelation as symbols of angels. A falling star is a common easily-recognized natural symbol that is used in a spiritual way here to describe an elect angel descending from heaven before the end of time to open the pit to release Satan and his demons from their restraint in order to restrict the great commission.

Well said. How can @TribulationSigns get around this (he's the one who denies the existence of angels altogether, including Satan)? Scripture specifically refers to "the devil and his angels". He tries to say that the devil represents the evil spirit of man and says the same about demons. How does that explain references to the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41, Rev 12:9)? Does he think those are referring to the evil spirit of man and his evil spirits of men? What in the world? He just has no idea how nonsensical his beliefs are as it relates to this topic.

Also, in relation to 2 Peter 2:4, it talks about the angels being sent down to "tartaroo" (translated as "hell"), but the place where the souls and spirits of unbelievers go when they die is not tartaroo, but is hades. So, when tartaroo is translated as "hell" there, it can cause confusion. But, it should be clear that it's not talking about human beings there or else it would talk about them being cast into hades, not tartaroo. I'm not sure that tartaroo is even intended to be taken literally since we know that angels cannot be literally chained up. Regardless, that is not the place where unbelieving human beings go when they die.

 

[WPM]

I never met a Christadelphian before I met @Hiddenthings (who might be on vacation) sounds like the same doctrine, which is more or less that Satan is not a personal being, and that evil spirits are just forms of being skitzo or something. I dont know all of their doctrines.

Maybe they are Christadelphians?

The influence of all error comes from the enemy - a real Satan, who they deny exists.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never met a Christadelphian before I met @Hiddenthings (who might be on vacation) sounds like the same doctrine, which is more or less that Satan is not a personal being, and that evil spirits are just forms of being skitzo or something. I dont know all of their doctrines.

Maybe they are Christadelphians?

He (TribulationSigns) is not a Christadelphian, but maybe he has been influenced by the Christadelphian teaching about this? I'm not sure. In fairness to rwb, who was also quoted in the OP, he does believe that Satan is an actual, personal spirit being and that demons are real spirit beings, but he doesn't believe that they were once God's angels who rebelled and became fallen angels.

 

[WPM]

Well said. How can @TribulationSigns get around this (he's the one who denies the existence of angels altogether, including Satan)? Scripture specifically refers to "the devil and his angels". He tries to say that the devil represents the evil spirit of man and says the same about demons. How does that explain references to the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41, Rev 12:9)? Does he think those are referring to the evil spirit of man and his evil spirits of men? What in the world? He just has no idea how nonsensical his beliefs are as it relates to this topic.

Also, in relation to 2 Peter 2:4, it talks about the angels being sent down to "tartaroo" (translated as "hell"), but the place where the souls and spirits of unbelievers go when they die is not tartaroo, but is hades. So, when tartaroo is translated as "hell" there, it can cause confusion. But, it should be clear that it's not talking about human beings there or else it would talk about them being cast into hades, not tartaroo. I'm not sure that tartaroo is even intended to be taken literally since we know that angels cannot be literally chained up. Regardless, that is not the place where unbelieving human beings go when they die.

Great point. Demons are currently held in the abyss. Humans go to hell. These Scriptures describe the spiritual restrains that the whole demonic realm is currently subject to, up until the judgment. It is worth noting that this passage is the only place in Scripture where we find the Greek words tartaroo (Strong’s 5020) and seiraís (Strong’s 4577). The word tartaroo in the original does not refer to hell (Hades) but rather to the abyss. In fact, the Greek word tartaroo comes from tartaros which refers to the deepest part of the abyss. Moreover, the Greek word seiraís simply means bonds. This text powerfully confirms the Amillennial view that Satan’s demonic kingdom is already bound in the invisible spiritual realm of the abyss.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Satan is the representative head of the kingdom of darkness

Satan reigns over the kingdom of darkness. Revelation 16:10 tells us that the daemonic “kingdom” is “full of darkness.”

When Scripture speaks about Satan he is the representative head of the whole kingdom of darkness. The binding of Satan constituted the binding of his demons. The curtailment of Satan involved the curtailment of the hordes of hell. Satan's defeat was their defeat. When Satan was bound, the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). When Satan is released prior to the second coming so also is the whole kingdom of darkness (including the beast and every demon).

Scripture often sums up our battle with the kingdom of darkness as simply being a fight with Satan. That is because he is the representative head of the demonic realm. When the Bible says “resist the devil, and he will flee from you” this is not limited to Satan, it is talking about the whole demonic realm.

So, how can @TribulationSigns explain this one with his doctrine? He says the devil is the evil spirit of man. How can man's own spirit flee from him? That's not possible. So, this is clearly referring to the devil as a separate being from humans here. When we resist him he must go away from us. When we put on the whole armor of God we are "able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11). He can't affect us when we resist him and put on the whole armor of God to stand against him. When someone denies that he is an actual evil spirit being, how can they resist him? Who is going to try to resist someone who they think doesn't even exist? That's why his false doctrine is terrible and dangerous and why it's worth taking the time to thoroughly refute it.

In Revelation 9:10-11 the scorpion-like demonic host (that is shown to be currently incarcerated within the abyss) are said to have “a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

This can be none other than Satan. Strong's says: “Apolluon means a destroyer (i.e. Satan).” Before we go any further, it is worth noting, Jesus likened demons to scorpions in Luke 10:19.

Right. The bottomless pit (abyss) is not a place for human beings. That is never taught anywhere in scripture. Scripture teaches that the devil, Satan, is the king of the other fallen angels because they are referred to as "his angels" (Matt 25:41, Rev 12:9), so Apollyon is definitely just another name for Satan since the fallen angels/demons have no other king but Satan since, again, they are "his angels".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bible distinguishes between angels and men. They are different. They are distinct. Angels are heavenly beings that are sent on assignment from God to serve His purposes, and protect His servants. They operate in the invisible realm.

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Great point here. @TribulationSigns, how do you reconcile these passages with your doctrine? These passages clearly differentiate between men and angels, yet you try to claim that all references to angels (Greek: angelos) in scripture refer to men.

Clearly, Jesus was not "made a little lower than" men, so study passages like this carefully, so that you can understand that your doctrine contradicts passages like this and so that you can realize that there are such things as supernatural spirit beings called angels who serve God in heaven and on earth. Such as when the angel came to Joseph in a dream to tell him about what would happen to Mary.

Matthew 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”

You say angels are men, but how could a man have appeared to Joseph in a dream to warn him to take Jesus and Mary to Egypt to avoid being killed? No, only a spirit being could do that.

In heaven, God's elect are distinguished from the angels:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Jesus taught:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Are humans coming to gather us at the second coming?

Great point! Of course we are not going to be gathered at His second coming by men. That would be ridiculous, considering we are going to be gathered and caught up to the Lord in the air. How could men do that? LOL. There is just overwhelming evidence against the idea that the referenced to angels are not references to non-human spirit beings. Great job of being so thorough in refuting that false teaching.

Ephesians 6:12 tells us what we do not fight against, then tells us what we do fight against.

• It tells us: “we wrestle not against flesh and blood.” This is talking about humans.
• It then tells us that we wrestle “against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

This also distinguished between angels and men. They are not the same. Satan and his demons are clearly real evil beings/entities (with personalities) not the abstract evil within unregenerate man. We are not fighting a natural physical holy war today against humans like they did in the Old Testament. We are exclusively fighting a spiritual war in the heavenlies. We are not fighting with carnal power or human ingenuity. We are not fighting politicians and governments.

Another great point. Jesus commands us to love our enemies, so our fight is not against them. It is against the evil spirits influencing them.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I have never seen such twisting of Scripture in my life.

Want some tissues?

Do you realize, Satan is not a physical being? He is an angel. He is an invisible spirit. He is a real demonic angelic entity. He is not an influence. Even though Satan is an angel of darkness, 2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

No, they are not the so-called angels.

1st John 4:1

• "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

And speaking of ministering spirits, we are also warned to beware of what type spirits that come because all are not sent by God. Some are sent by Satan and are merely masquerading as messengers (not angels) who are ministers of light.

2nd Corinthians 11:14-15

• "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
• Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

The false messenger who appears as a minister righteousness, a messenger of light, in order to deceive. These are false ministering spirits appearing as true ministering spirits, of which God warns us not to believe every spirit. Try or prove them, and the way to do that is by the word of God! The way not to be deceived is to pay close attention to their authority. Is it the word of God or the words, traditions, and speculations of men?

...but I digress. The messengers who are true ministering spirits are those who are truly sent of God to evangelize. Not your fantasy of celestial created beings.

As for the rest of your post, I won't deal with it because I already covered it. You were just repeating yourself with wrong interpretation.

 

[Muna]

Here are a multitude of devils coming out of Mary

Luke 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities,
Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

And an evil spirit from the LORD to trouble Saul

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

 

[WPM]

Want some tissues?



No, they are not the so-called angels.

1st John 4:1

• "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

And speaking of ministering spirits, we are also warned to beware of what type spirits that come because all are not sent by God. Some are sent by Satan and are merely masquerading as messengers (not angels) who are ministers of light.

2nd Corinthians 11:14-15

• "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
• Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

The false messenger who appears as a minister righteousness, a messenger of light, in order to deceive. These are false ministering spirits appearing as true ministering spirits, of which God warns us not to believe every spirit. Try or prove them, and the way to do that is by the word of God! The way not to be deceived is to pay close attention to their authority. Is it the word of God or the words, traditions, and speculations of men?

...but I digress. The messengers who are true ministering spirits are those who are truly sent of God to evangelize. Not your fantasy of celestial created beings.

As for the rest of your post, I won't deal with it because I already covered it. You were just repeating yourself with wrong interpretation.

Is that your rebuttal?

Do you know that demon entities inhabit humans? Hello! Satan controls the fools that wish to embrace his lies. He speaks through them. They are tools in his hands. That does not mean they are the same. They are not. Demons are evil invisible angels/ spirits that desire to inhabit physical human beings.

Secondly, Satan is an angel of darkness. But he is such a deceiver that he pretends to be an angel of light. That is what Scripture is telling us. It is warning us to be careful, circumspect and diligent.

 

[WPM]

As for the rest of your post, I won't deal with it because I already covered it. You were just repeating yourself with wrong interpretation.

Lol. Your error is in tatters. You have no answers. If you did you would address the Scriptures/ points that forbid your nonsense.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Clearly, Jesus was not "made a little lower than" men, so study passages like this carefully, so that you can understand that your doctrine contradicts passages like this and so that you can realize that there are such things as supernatural spirit beings called angels who serve God in heaven and on earth.

Wrongooooo! You still have a lot to learn. You need to pray for wisdom.

Hebrews 2:9

• "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

The question is, why was He made a little lower than messengers (men)? The answer given is for the suffering of death! In other words, so that He could suffer death for them (the messengers). He came as the suffering "servant!" The servant is lower the lower. This verse has nothing to do with suffering death FOR your fake supernatural angelic beings with wings being above Christ! But with Christ's office as a servant to take upon Himself our sins and be numbered with the transgressors. He was made to be servant to the messengers of God for the suffering of death. Hello?! That says it all. This speaks of what some Christians might call the condescension of God to lower Himself.

Isaiah 53:3-4

• "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
• Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

That's how LOW God made Himself, a man of sorrows, a man not in royal apparel, but a man despised and smitten of God.

Zechariah 9:9

• "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

He couldn't be made more lowly, because this is the very reason He came. He lowered Himself, came riding on an ass, humble before His messengers, lowly as to become their servant.

Matthew 20:28

• "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

Literally, even as the Son of Man did not come to be ministered to, but to minister, and to give his life as a ransom for many in suffering death for them. That's what Him being made a little lower than the messengers (for the suffering of death) means. It doesn't mean He was made lower than your fake supernatural heavenly beings for some unknown made-up reason as some suppose, for what would be the point of that?!?!?!?

There is no reason for God to make Jesus a little lower than supernatural, celestial, winged, ministering beings from heaven unless man invents a reason and through eisegesis reads it into the Bible. Because it sure is not in the Bible! There is a reason why God made Jesus a little lower than his human messengers, and the reason is he was sent not to be ministered to as God, but to minister to THEM as a servant. Not your angels! We don't read of any supernatural beings who Christ is spoken of as being lower than, do we? Only Messengers because there is no Hebrew word "angel" in the Psalms from which this passage is taken! Of course, we don't read that of heavenly angels because that's NOT the point of the text. The point is in the context of the gospel message to humans, and specifically, the human messengers of God. HIS PEOPLE that He came to save. The context is "why" He was made lower than God's messengers to suffer death for THEM! Not for the world, not for alleged supernatural angels, for His messengers, His witnesses, His people that He came to carry their burden as a servant. To not be ministered unto, but to minister to them. This demonstrates His divine office as the suffering servant for "THEM," ...the messengers. Get it unless you do not have spiritual ears to hear!

2nd Corinthians 5:21

• "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

He was lowered to carry every man's sin, that they might be lifted up to be the righteousness of God. Did Christ do this for your angels? LOL. As it is written:

Philippians 2:7-8

• "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a SERVANT, and was made in the likeness of men:
• And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

He answers again, for the suffering of death. He took upon Himself to be lower than human messengers coming in the form of their servant. Even as He demonstrated in John chapter 13 in washing the disciple's feet. God Himself willingly places Himself in the extremely low position of subservience and servitude. Even though He is their Lord, He lowers Himself beneath His human messengers like us to demonstrate His ultimate mission. To serve them through His willingness to freely suffer death for them all. And this so that His messengers would follow His example to serve mankind in the preaching of this gospel message. His mission as illustrated in passages like Isaiah.

Isaiah 53:10-11

• "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
• He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."

By seeing his seed this refers to the predestinated children of the promise to Abraham and his seed, which is through Christ. Not your angels! To see His seed refers to His spiritual posterity that shall be numerous (Psalms 22:30). Though Christ be humbled, hated, bruised, and die in the flesh, He shall see the seed of Abraham through His sacrifice, lowly, and not esteemed. This momentous posterity was accounted a high blessing in Hebrews that you have quoted.

Hebrews 2:16

• "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

The word nature is not in the Bible there. Christ didn't take upon himself the messengers of the Old Testament, but He took on himself the seed of Abraham, meaning Abraham's spiritual posterity that God promised a Savior for. Note that the "contrast" here is between Messengers and the seed of Abraham. i.e., not one, but the other.

Hebrews 4:15

• "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

For though Christ be fully man, He cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities because he doesn't have the nature to sin. Or thought to sin. Or be tempted to sin. Though He can be "tested" by sin and sympathize with us as sinners needing mercy, He cannot sin like us. If He could sin, He couldn't have been the servant to take upon Himself the sins of the seed of Abraham (Isaiah 53:6, nail them to the cross, and be risen up from death without.

Selah!

@rwb

 

[TribulationSigns]

Is that your rebuttal?

Do you know that demon entities inhabit humans? Hello!

Hello! Wow… looks like you’ve been binge-watching The Exorcist a little too much. Careful—you might start thinking every shadow in your house is a demon!

Satan controls the fools that wish to embrace his lies. He speaks through them. They are tools in his hands. That does not mean they are the same. They are not. Demons are evil invisible angels/ spirits that desire to inhabit physical human beings.

No, it is their own spirit of disobedience that has blinded them. They have been deceived by the lies they tell themselves, and their stubborn pride keeps them from seeing the truth.

Secondly, Satan is an angel of darkness. But he is such a deceiver that he pretends to be an angel of light. That is what Scripture is telling us. It is warning us to be careful, circumspect and diligent.

Of course! That’s exactly why false prophets and false Christs appear among us—we must test their own spirit, which is called none other than Satan.

 

[Muna]

Do you know that demon entities inhabit humans?

Sure shows being possessed

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Question WMP, only because I don't know what angle he is coming from (and has me on ignore) but is it all the angels/spirits/devils (as mentioned in the scripture) considered to be the same earthly origin? Referring to either men or their own man spirits sort of thing?

I cant wrap my mind around this.

 

[Muna]

I was in this conversation with Tribs as Verily, I recall he said,

"He had to suffer the wrath that God had decreed upon man for his sins. To do that He had to lower Himself to take on the flesh of man, messengers (angels) be tempted/tried as a man"

When the scriptures really say,

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Post # 28

Revelation 20:6 "The First Resurrection" Explained

The word “stand up” in Daniel 12:1 is amad. Here is what Strong’s lexicon says … Usage: The Hebrew verb "amad" primarily means "to stand" in a physical sense, but it extends to various contexts, including standing firm, enduring, or taking a position. It can imply a literal standing posture...

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