Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[TribulationSigns]

The reason is obvious! Angels can't die. Humans can. So, He had to be made a little lower in status than angels in order to be able to die for the sins of the world.

But, they are His servants as well, so He was never lower than His human messengers. That is ludicrous.

I must firmly disagree. That is not how the word “angel” is to be understood. Scripture never defines angels as some kind of celestial, winged beings floating in the heavens. The word simply means “messengers” — and throughout the Bible, those messengers are men sent and empowered by God to deliver His Word.

It’s clear that we will not see eye to eye on this matter, because spiritual truth is not revealed to everyone, but only to those whom God enlightens by His Spirit. Those without that illumination will continue to cling to man-made traditions instead of the Word itself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Clearly, some of you either suffer from spiritual blindness or simply didn’t bother to read carefully what I explained about the seven “devils” or “spirits” last night.

LOL. We read your nonsense and can only laugh. Your explanations are a total joke. You twist every text that clearly refutes your false doctrine. You stubbornly cling to your false beliefs because you want to try to show you somehow have more discernment than everyone else about this. You do not.

The number seven in Scripture is not random—it carries deep spiritual significance. It represents completeness, totality, and all-inclusiveness of whatever is in view. If you don’t understand that, then it’s time to do your homework instead of arguing from ignorance.


Look at Revelation 5:6:

• And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”

Now tell me—does this mean God literally has seven horns? Seven eyes? Or seven separate spirits? Of course not! It symbolizes that God is all-powerful (the horns) and all-seeing, all-knowing (the eyes)—His omniscience and omnipresence. Now can you explain what seven spirits of God is, humm?

So, when Scripture says that seven devils were cast out of the woman, do you seriously think there were seven literal demons crawling around inside her? (Scoff.) No—Christ was showing us a spiritual reality, the total deliverance from the spirit of Satan—the complete cleansing of her soul.


But to see that, one must have spiritual discernment, not carnal reasoning. That’s the problem here. Christ’s miracles were not performed for entertainment or superstition, but to reveal the greater spiritual truth behind them. And no, they are not literal demons. Sorry to disappoint you.

Selah!

LOL. Nice job of trying to relate unrelated scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with each other. You think you have so much spiritual discernment when, in reality, you have very little. You equate spiritual discernment with spiritualizing literal text. No, spiritual discernment has to do with being able to tell the difference between literal and figurative text. And you are very lacking in that.

Every time we show a case of someone being demon possessed you go out of your way to explain it away. You even resort to saying Jesus was just telling a parable when He talked about the demon-possessed man with many unclean spirits/demons/devils in him. With this other example, you've found a new way to deny what the scripture indicates. No matter what anyone shows you, you will twist the text to say whatever you want it to say.

 

[WPM]

And here are these things stated differently

Psalm 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

But if we ditch the sending of evil angels we can the LORD sending evil spirits

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

And then if you ditch the evil spirits and evil angels He is shown sending a lying spirit

1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

They are cast out of men, and sent into pigs also

Matt 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

Here are devils speaking and requesting that when you cast us out of this man please sent us into a herd of swine

They speak and are specific to the location they want to go, but not into the place of torment they know they will be going.

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them (those persons) on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

You are hitting it out of the park! Well done!

 

[Muna]

For crying out loud, man. Demon possession is very clearly taught in scripture.

Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

This talks about a man who had many devils (demons)/unclean spirits in him and Jesus cast them out of him into the nearby swine who then ran off a cliff and fell into the sea. Your way around this is to say that this is a parable that Jesus made up to teach a lesson, which is nothing more than a joke. This is just one of many accounts in scripture of people being possessed by demons. You think those are all made up stories? LOL. No. Scritpure couldn't be more clear about the existence of spirit beings called angels, including evil spirit beings called devils or demons or unclean spirits. To deny their existence is just utterly ridiculous and makes me wonder how in the world you got to the point where you deny such obvious truths?

I was working on the same post! Ya got there before me

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I must firmly disagree.

Of course you must because you have decided that you must deny the truth being presented to you because of your extreme stubbornness.

That is not how the word “angel” is to be understood.

How about addressing what I actually said? Jesus was not lower than other men. You are making that up. Lower than sinners who needed His sacrifice to cover their sins? No.

Scripture never defines angels as some kind of celestial, winged beings floating in the heavens.

Why do you continue to make these ridiculous straw man arguments? You're talking to me, not someone else who has a different view. I never defined angels that way. They are invisible spirit beings who reside in heaven but are able to come to the earth and serve God in different ways including appearing to people in dreams or visions to give them messages from God. How do you explain angels appearing to people in dreams to give them messages from God? Such as when an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream to tell him he needed to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt for safety?

The word simply means “messengers” — and throughout the Bible, those messengers are men sent and empowered by God to deliver His Word.

It’s clear that we will not see eye to eye on this matter, because spiritual truth is not revealed to everyone, but only to those whom God enlightens by His Spirit. Those without that illumination will continue to cling to man-made traditions instead of the Word itself.

It's sad that you smile while continuing to try to promote your doctrine of demons (the demons that you deny exist, ironically). It's not the Holy Spirit who has taught you this false doctrine, that's for sure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was working on the same post! Ya got there before me

It's a team effort. Your turn.

 

[Muna]

It's a team effort. Your turn.

Hubby just pulled in gotta make dinner (thats what we women do for you boys)
Its hard to eat and post, be back in a bit

 

[TribulationSigns]

For crying out loud, man. Demon possession is very clearly taught in scripture.

Chuckle. Think so?

This talks about a man who had many devils (demons)/unclean spirits in him and Jesus cast them out of him into the nearby swine who then ran off a cliff and fell into the sea. Your way around this is to say that this is a parable that Jesus made up to teach a lesson, which is nothing more than a joke. This is just one of many accounts in scripture of people being possessed by demons. You think those are all made up stories? LOL. No. Scritpure couldn't be more clear about the existence of spirit beings called angels, including evil spirit beings called devils or demons or unclean spirits. To deny their existence is just utterly ridiculous and makes me wonder how in the world you got to the point where you deny such obvious truths?

According to a natural man, got it.

Your problem is that you read the Scriptures only on the surface and miss the spiritual truth Christ was revealing. You cling to literalism like a Pharisee, yet the Lord said plainly, “The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63).

Christ did not come to train us in physical exorcisms, waving crosses and sprinkling water, as if evil can be chased out by ritual. He came to set captives free through the power of the Gospel, not by theatrics or superstition. The so-called “demons” He cast out represented the unclean spirit of disobedience that rules in the hearts of unbelievers (Ephesians 2:2).

When Jesus cast out the “Legion,” it was not to entertain fleshly minds, but to illustrate the total deliverance of many souls bound by sin and falsehood. The swine represented the unclean nature of man that cannot bear the truth and thus have the spirit of Satan that ended up being perishes in the lake of fire. It is a spiritual pictures. Every miracle of Christ pointed to a spiritual reality, not a carnal show.

You say it’s “utterly ridiculous” to deny literal devils? I say it’s utterly blind to miss what those devils represent. It is the spirit of error within man that must be cast out—not by water, not by a wooden cross, not by silver bullets, but by the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.

The true exorcism is when truth drives out falsehood, when light exposes darkness, and when a man’s heart is cleansed by the Spirit of Christ, not by superstition that deceived your carnal mind!

Selah.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was in this conversation with Tribs as Verily, I recall he said,

"He had to suffer the wrath that God had decreed upon man for his sins. To do that He had to lower Himself to take on the flesh of man, messengers (angels) be tempted/tried as a man"

When the scriptures really say,

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Post # 28

Revelation 20:6 "The First Resurrection" Explained

The word “stand up” in Daniel 12:1 is amad. Here is what Strong’s lexicon says … Usage: The Hebrew verb "amad" primarily means "to stand" in a physical sense, but it extends to various contexts, including standing firm, enduring, or taking a position. It can imply a literal standing posture...

www.christianityboard.com

Another good catch. Great job. @TribulationSigns how do you get around this one? Hebrews 2:16 says Jesus did NOT take on the nature of angels, but it previously says He DID take on the nature of man. So, the text clearly differentiates between angels and men. This is just one of MANY examples where references to angels cannot possibly be referring to men. But, you deny them all, anyway.

 

[WPM]

I was working on the same post! Ya got there before me

Do not hold back. Truth is demolishing heresy here. Keep it coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Chuckle. Think so?

I know so. There are many accounts of demon possession in scripture. It's 100% undeniable, but you deny it, anyway! Unbelievable. What happend to you to cause you to deny clear, obvoius scrpitural truth? Were you part of a cult at some point or something and you didn't let go of all their beliefs?

According to a natural man, got it.

Your problem is that you read the Scriptures only on the surface and miss the spiritual truth Christ was revealing. You cling to literalism like a Pharisee, yet the Lord said plainly, “The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63).

LOL. If that was true, how am I an Amil? Why don't I interpret Revelation literally like the Premills? You have no idea of what you're talking about. Spritual discernment has nothing to do with spiritualizing as much scripure as possible as you do. It's knowing the difference between text relating to literal/physical/marterial things and figurative/spiritual things.

Christ did not come to train us in physical exorcisms, waving crosses and sprinkling water, as if evil can be chased out by ritual. He came to set captives free through the power of the Gospel, not by theatrics or superstition. The so-called “demons” He cast out represented the unclean spirit of disobedience that rules in the hearts of unbelievers (Ephesians 2:2).

LOL. How does this explain the man with MANY spirits in him? You can't equate many spirits in that man with one "unclean spirit of disobedience" in him. Your way around that is to deny that he actually had many spirits dwelling in him that Jesus cast out into the swine. You have to resort to denying reality to keep your doctrine afloat. Sad!

When Jesus cast out the “Legion,” it was not to entertain fleshly minds, but to illustrate the total deliverance of many souls bound by sin and falsehood. The swine represented the unclean nature of man that cannot bear the truth and thus have the spirit of Satan that ended up being perishes in the lake of fire. It is a spiritual pictures. Every miracle of Christ pointed to a spiritual reality, not a carnal show.

You say it’s “utterly ridiculous” to deny literal devils? I say it’s utterly blind to miss what those devils represent. It is the spirit of error within man that must be cast out—not by water, not by a wooden cross, not by silver bullets, but by the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.

The true exorcism is when truth drives out falsehood, when light exposes darkness, and when a man’s heart is cleansed by the Spirit of Christ, not by superstition that deceived your carnal mind!

Selah.

Nothing but empty words from you that deny scriptural truths. You have deluded yourself into thinking you have more spiritual discernment than anyone else, while the reality is that you have less than most here, at least in relation to topics like this one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do not hold back. Truth is demolishing heresy here. Keep it coming.

This guy is as stubborn as they come. We are destroying his doctrine with scripture after scripture and he continues to make things up in his imagination to deny them all. Its one of the saddest things I've ever seen.

 

[TribulationSigns]

How about addressing what I actually said? Jesus was not lower than other men. You are making that up. Lower than sinners who needed His sacrifice to cover their sins? No.

I did. I’ve made the truth plain, but you hardened your heart against it. Enough said. The matter is in God’s hands now — He will judge who is right.

Why do you continue to make these ridiculous straw man arguments?

Why, why, why... LOL....

I never defined angels that way. They are invisible spirit beings who reside in heaven but are able to come to the earth and serve God in different ways including appearing to people in dreams or visions to give them messages from God.

Sigh! You think so? Okay let test your flawed angelic doctrine here on this verse:

Heb 13:1-2
(1) Let brotherly love continue.
(2) Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Exactly who are the angels here? Looking forward to your answer.

How do you explain angels appearing to people in dreams to give them messages from God? Such as when an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream to tell him he needed to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt for safety?

Could it be that Jesus Christ Himself is the messenger? Or—wait—was that the sound of a blood vessel popping on your forehead trying to wrap your head around it?

It's sad that you smile while continuing to try to promote your doctrine of demons (the demons that you deny exist, ironically). It's not the Holy Spirit who has taught you this false doctrine, that's for sure.

Like I said, the Lord judges and I am comfortable with it... with a smile.

 

[WPM]

This guy is as stubborn as they come. We are destroying his doctrine with scripture after scripture and he continues to make things up in his imagination to deny them all. Its one of the saddest things I've ever seen.

No one as blind as one who cannot see. Scripture damns his error. The one he denies is taking him in circles.

 

[WPM]

I did. I’ve made the truth plain, but you hardened your heart against it. Enough said. The matter is in God’s hands now — He will judge who is right.



Why, why, why... LOL....


Sigh! You think so? Okay let test your flawed angelic doctrine here on this verse:

Heb 13:1-2
(1) Let brotherly love continue.
(2) Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Exactly who are the angels here? Looking forward to your answer.



Could it be that Jesus Christ Himself is the messenger? Or—wait—was that the sound of a blood vessel popping on your forehead trying to wrap your head around it?



Like I said, the Lord judges and I am comfortable with it... with a smile.

You are full of nonsense. Scripture is exposing you and your Christadelphian doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did. I’ve made the truth plain, but you hardened your heart against it. Enough said. The matter is in God’s hands now — He will judge who is right.

You've made your false beliefs plan. Jesus was never lower than any man. Lower than sinners who needed His sacrifice to cover their sins? Ridiculous! You should be embarrassed about your beliefs. Absolutely ludicrous. Yes, He was made a servant, but those whose sins He covered serve Him! But, you think He was made lower than them? LOL. No.

Why, why, why... LOL....

All you can do is laugh instead of explain why you have made several straw man arguments in this discussion? When did I ever say anything about angels being feathered and floating around in heaven? Never, of course. But, you still waste your time acting as if I did.

Sigh! You think so? Okay let test your flawed angelic doctrine here on this verse:

Heb 13:1-2
(1) Let brotherly love continue.
(2) Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Exactly who are the angels here? Looking forward to your answer.

God's angels. Hello? Why is everything so difficult for you? Are you somehow unaware that angels can appear as men?

Genesis 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; 2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

You know why Lot treated these angels with such reverence? Because he knew that they were not mere men.

Could it be that Jesus Christ Himself is the messenger?

No.

Or—wait—was that the sound of a blood vessel popping on your forehead trying to wrap your head around it?

The only sound I hear is my laughter at your continual nonsense. Is Jesus Christ also called Gabriel?

Luke 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Gabriel is also referenced in other places like in Daniel appearing in visions and dreams to explain the meaning of them. This passage shows that he is an angel who stands "in the presence of God" and was sent to speak to Zechariah and in other scriptures is shown speaking to Daniel. So, if angels are human messengers, how was Gabriel standing in the presence of God before being sent to speak to Zechariah? Who do you think Gabriel is?

Like I said, the Lord judges and I am comfortable with it... with a smile.

And, as I've said to you before, it's fortunate that is the case because He definitely does not approve of your false doctrine of demons.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are full of nonsense. Scripture is exposing you and your Christadelphian doctrine.

Evasive tactics. I take that you cannot explain Hebrew 13:1-2 then?

 

[WPM]

Evasive tactics. I take that you cannot explain Hebrew 13:1-2 then?

Angels can appear in human form to minister, message or protect.

What is the issue? Hello!

 

[TribulationSigns]

God's angels. Hello? Why is everything so difficult for you? Are you somehow unaware that angels can appear as men?

Is that your final answer? Ready for my answer?

The only sound I hear is my laughter at your continual nonsense. Is Jesus Christ also called Gabriel?

Did you ever study Gabriel in Hebrew?

1403 Gabriy'el gab-ree-ale' from 'geber' (1397) and ''el' (410); man of God; Gabriel, an archangel:--Garbriel.
1397 geber gheh'-ber from 'gabar' (1396); properly, a valiant man or warrior; generally, a person simply:--every one, man, X mighty.
410 'el ale shortened from ''ayil' (352); strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):--God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might(-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."

Like Michael, Gabriel is identified as the angel of the Lord, Jesus Christ!

Luk 1:11-20
(11) And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
(12) And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
(13) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
(14) And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
(15) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
(16) And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
(17) And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
(18) And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
(19) And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
(20) And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Who exactly is this angel of the Lord?

Jdg 13:21-22
(21) But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
(22) And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Gen 16:9-13
(9) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
(10) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
(11) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
(12) And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
(13) And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Exo 3:2-6
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
(4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
(5) And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
(6) Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

The angel of the Lord is GOD HIMSELF! And since no man has seen God the Father and lives, it has to be Jesus Christ as His Messenger! He has many names, like Michael (one who is assuredly is God) and Gabriel (God man).

Joh 5:36-37
(36) But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
(37) And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

If Gabriel is the angel (messenger) of the Lord, then yes, SI, Gabriel indeed has to be Jesus Christ.

And, as I've said to you before, it's fortunate that is the case because He definitely does not approve of your false doctrine of demons.

Don't tell me that I did not warn you before, remember this on Judgment day. (wink).

@rwb

 

[rwb]

Evasive tactics. I take that you cannot explain Hebrew 13:1-2 then?

Get used to it! Evasion is the MO for those who cannot offer a Biblical response. Evasion, and slander there is no end!