Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Muna]

Are you his spokesman, ambassador or defender?

You seem to realize his arguments are crumbling.

Honestly, you have called that that out correctly.

 

[rwb]

Rwb, are you even reading what I am saying?

I dont even know where to begin with your posts, read what is there, if you have a problem with it point it out.

Stop putting your imaginations on my text

And you arent doing Tribs any favors here

Why are you trying to explain to me what you think is in the mind of TS? You seem to have an agenda! What might it be? Because I tried to reply thoughtfully to what I thought you wanted me to help you understand. But I now believe you are just trying to get me to agree that the doctrines espoused by TS are complete and utter heresy! I won't do that! My reply to WPM might also apply to you!

 

[Muna]

Is this what you imagine TS is doing?

RWB, I am talking about PAULS WORDS that TRIBS LEAVES OUT

2 Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

He typically quotes only 2 Cr 11:4 and goes off on some inner serpent

I can't help but wonder if you really understand that TS is bringing TRUTH!

You cant even see what he leaves out or the TRUTH in Pauls words YOU think is ME speaking of Tribs (See above)

Does he have perfect understanding of the spiritual realm of God? Do any of us?

What is used for our correction, but the scripture I presented, which you blew past because you cannot even reccognize that is what I was speaking of (The "he that cometh" is found in the next verse) which often left out of Tribs doctrine which you are so engrossed in it seems as something foreign to you or something/.

To say or even imply he is a liar and deceiver comes not from the Spirit of God, but by believing the lies being cast about him,

You invent things, and do not know what you are talking about, what did I say, quote what I have stated

and anyone else who shows gratitude for the spiritual understanding God has blessed him with.

I am not as attached to the breast of Tribs as you might be you, and so ofcourse you take anything against what He teaches personally.

That is understable.

 

[Muna]

Why are you trying to explain to me what you think is in the mind of TS?

Where?

You seem to have an agenda!

Where?

What might it be?

Yes, theres such a deep agenda discussing serpent and the church, and using only scripture in context by placing things back into their proper contexts

Because I tried to reply thoughtfully to what I thought you wanted me to help you understand.

I was testing your knowledge, thats why I said, forget I asked a few pages back

But I now believe you are just trying to get me to agree that the doctrines espoused by TS are complete and utter heresy!

By using the scripture?

I won't do that! My reply to WPM might also apply to you!

I see you are a die hard fan of his, who is stopping you?

 

[Muna]

How was Eve beguiled? Paul is saying she allowed her mind to be corrupted by receiving the message the serpent brought to her.

Notice how you are quoting me here (as is shown on #207). You had pulled that directly from my post (Post # 194) but you
cut off the next verse which shows the explanation (which I provided). Then jump on to adress me concerning it.

The verse I am speaking of is

2 Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

It needs no further explanation, it adresses a "he that cometh" a recieving "another gospel" and "another spirit" right there in the text.

 

[WPM]

No, what I see here is a spirit of evil coming against a brother in Christ. Why? Because he speaks as one having spiritual discernment that some of you find offensive. Is he always right? Who is? When he shows spiritual discernment regarding spirit beings, does he use the Bible to support his view? Yes, he does! Just because some of you don't agree with YOUR brother regarding what you feel is so-called spiritual discernment, that does not mean that he, "the person" a brother in Christ should be attacked and falsely accused in the manner some of you are doing! Though you have all knowledge and understanding, without love for a brother in Christ your knowledge and understanding is sounding gong and clanging cymbal. Some of you need to learn how to dispute a doctrinal position through the Word of God without attacking the person!

LOL. Yea right. Here we go again. Anyone who disagrees with heretics are "controlled by an evil spirits." Seriously? Get a life! It is you has strayed from biblical orthodoxy. Sadly, you are living in denial.

Honestly, I thought better of you. But life has a habit of revealing who people really are.

If you want to be TS's poodle, so-be-it. But you are being misled. This is utter nonsense.

 

[rwb]

As I turn my heart to the Lord in prayer, this discussion is heavy on my mind.

You, my Lord and God tell us that you keep your Covenant and show mercy to all who truly love you in thought word and deed, all those who keep your commandment to show love for one another as Christ shows love to us. We humbly seek your forgiveness Lord for we have not honored and glorified THY holy name. We've committed sin and shown wickedness toward one another. We've allowed pride, anger, and arrogance to consume us. Please forgive your servants Lord, all those who are called by Thy Holy name. We've hardened our hearts against you Lord, because we have hardened our hearts toward one another. Though we have dishonored and rebelled against you Oh Lord, we ask for your forgiveness and mercy that you have promised to those who turn away from wickedness and seek your grace. Thank you Lord for pouring out your love and mercy on an unworthy people, it's in Christ name that I pray this morning, AMEN.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can you not read what we write?

The term messenger can refer to man and angels, all depending on context. How many times do we need to state that? And yes, God does send literal angelical beings to earth to minister, provide and defend His servants. Scripture is full of that. If you do not see that that is willful blindness. Only God can remove that. You and TS just spiritualize these appearances away, as the Gnostics do.

This is like trying to talk to pre-tribs, which is like talking to a brick wall.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is like trying to talk to pre-tribs, which is like talking to a brick wall.

Because we stand firm upon the foundation of truth that you cannot seems to break. :-)

WPM is wrong with his assessment because he disseminating the all-pervasive mythos of fanciful church tradition, not the authoritative word of God. Do faithful Christians get their interpretations and understanding from secular sites or church tradition regurgitating over-imaginative folklore, myths, legends, and fables, or do they get it from the divine source from which Christianity sprang?

Hebrews 1:13-14

• "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
• Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"

ἄγγελος [aggelos], or messengers, are defined as ministering spirits that God sends to minister to the elect. And God cautions us not to believe every spirit, because there are spirits that witness truthfully, and there are spirits that are false prophets that deceive. Believe the truthful ministering spirits, not the false ones. As it is written:

2nd Corinthians 3:6

• "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

1st John 4:1

• "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

We "ARE" the ἄγγελος or messengers of God that are sent forth to minister to the saints that are called unto salvation. This is according to God, who has made us able ministers of the New Testament good news in the Spirit that makes alive. Selah.

Another proof is:

The truth that the word means Messenger, and that's what an ἄγγελος or [aggelos] is. Q.E.D., So what's really to debate?

Luke 7:27-28

• "This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my angel ἄγγελος before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
• For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Was the "man" John the Baptist an ἄγγελος (Messenger)? Or was John an angel sent from heaven by God? No, he was a man born of a woman and a ἄγγελος sent by God to prepare the way of Christ. Again, what's to debate. ..the truth?

THIS is the only unadulterated, undeniable, unassailable, God-authored truth that this article puts forth--that the word "transliterated" and anglicized as "angels, is actually the word messengers. ...further, it's not derived (formed or developed from something else) from the Greek word messenger, it is the Greek word, messenger!! That ἄγγελος is the Greek word Messenger shouldn't even be in debate. And it is ONLY because there are those like YOU, WPM and others, who wish it to mean some extrabiblical entity that the word of God doesn't speak about! There will always be some debate "because of the hardness of the heart" of many who can look at a tree and claim that it isn't wood. Truly, truly, that is the nature of the delusion of man.

Proverbs 26:16

• "The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason."

The sluggard's course is foolish and ruinous because he thinks so highly of himself as to be arrogant, pompous proud in his own conceit that he sees himself as so much wiser than those who can offer a sound reason. He is therefore inclined to despise the sound reasoning and sagacious counsels of the wise. Showing again that those who don't think or seek counsel of the Lord are left ignorant of their ignorance. Their vanity, ego, and conceit rule them instead of God. The word "transliterated" angel (since there is no word meaning angel in Scripture) is a direct from the Greek word "messenger." This they usually do not deny because it is hard for them to kick against the pricks, while in practice they actually do deny it.

Next!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have not refute it biblically.

We have biblically refuted your false denial of the existence of angels, including Satan and his fallen angels, over and over again and you keep imagining new ways to get around our arguments. For example, to deny that Jesus literally cast literal evil spirit beings (demons) out of a real person who literally had many evil spirits (called demons) within him into real, literal swine who literally then ran and fell off a cliff shows how you are unable to discern the difference between literal and figurative text. There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that wasn't an actual event that happened.

Imploded? Only in your head because you do not like hearing the truth. I am still here preaching truth whether you like it or not.

What truth are you preaching? You are promoting blatant false teaching by denying the existence of spirit beings called angels, so where is the truth you are preaching?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because we stand firm upon the foundation of truth that you cannot seems to break. :-)

I have broken your false teaching repeatedly in this thread and the other thread that spawned this one, but you stubbornly deny it. When we give examples of verses that use the Greek word "angelos" that can't possibly be talking about human messengers, you deny it every time. You try to say that Jesus was made a little lower than human messengers! LOL! What? No, He absolutely was not. He is human (and God, of course) Himself, so He was never lower than humans. Then you deny that the account of the demon-possessed man who had many evil spirits/demons in him actually happened. On and on it goes. No matter what we say, you will deny it. But, then you claim you "stand firm upon the foundation of truth"? No, you do not. You stand firm in your stubborn refusal to accept correction.

WPM is wrong with his assessment because he disseminating the all-pervasive mythos of fanciful church tradition, not the authoritative word of God. Do faithful Christians get their interpretations and understanding from secular sites or church tradition regurgitating over-imaginative folklore, myths, legends, and fables, or do they get it from the divine source from which Christianity sprang?

Hebrews 1:13-14

• "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
• Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"

ἄγγελος [aggelos], or messengers, are defined as ministering spirits that God sends to minister to the elect. And God cautions us not to believe every spirit, because there are spirits that witness truthfully, and there are spirits that are false prophets that deceive. Believe the truthful ministering spirits, not the false ones. As it is written:

2nd Corinthians 3:6

• "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

1st John 4:1

• "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

We "ARE" the ἄγγελος or messengers of God that are sent forth to minister to the saints that are called unto salvation. This is according to God, who has made us able ministers of the New Testament good news in the Spirit that makes alive. Selah.

Another proof is:

The truth that the word means Messenger, and that's what an ἄγγελος or [aggelos] is. Q.E.D., So what's really to debate?

Luke 7:27-28

• "This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my angel ἄγγελος before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
• For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Was the "man" John the Baptist an ἄγγελος (Messenger)? Or was John an angel sent from heaven by God? No, he was a man born of a woman and a ἄγγελος sent by God to prepare the way of Christ. Again, what's to debate. ..the truth?

This kind of weak argument does nothing to support your case. No one is arguing that the word can't ever refer to human messengers. The argument is that it doesn't always refer to human messengers and that it is used to refer to spirit beings called angels a majority of the time. You continually waste your time making straw man arguments. You have not made any kind of convincing arguments to refute the verses we've shown where the word can't possibly be used in relation to human messengers.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This kind of weak argument does nothing to support your case. No one is arguing that the word can't ever refer to human messengers.

Weak argument? Sound like someone who is denier of the Truth when reading the verse:

Luke 7:27-28

• "This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger/angel ἄγγελος before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
• For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

It is the same Greek word for angel. Was the "man" John the Baptist an ἄγγελος (Messenger)? Or was John an angel sent from heaven by God? No, he was a man born of a woman and a ἄγγελος sent by God to prepare the way of Christ. Again, what's to debate. ..the truth? Therefore, the Greek word does NOT means fairy tale created beings.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The serpent — also called Satan or the Devil — represents the spirit of man, the spirit of disobedience.

The beast, on the other hand, symbolizes a collective body of people driven by that same spirit of disobedience. People with the spirit of antichrist.

That’s all it is — plain and simple.

If that was the case, then why does it refer to the serpent (Satan), and the beast being cast into the lake of fire separately from those whose names are written in the book of life? The beast is referenced as being cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20, Satan in Revelation 20:10 and those whose names are not written in the book of life in Revelation 20:15. Your view makes all of those verses redundant, but the reality is that there is a distinction made between Satan, the beast and those whose names are not written in the book of life.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Weak argument?

Why are you questioning that? I explained why it is a weak argument. Did you not read everything I said?

Sound like someone who is denier of the Truth when reading the verse:

Luke 7:27-28

• "This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger/angel ἄγγελος before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
• For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

It is the same Greek word for angel. Was the "man" John the Baptist an ἄγγελος (Messenger)? Or was John an angel sent from heaven by God? No, he was a man born of a woman and a ἄγγελος sent by God to prepare the way of Christ. Again, what's to debate. ..the truth? Therefore, the Greek word does NOT means fairy tale created beings.

LOL. Did you not read what I said? You are arguing as if I claimed that every time that Greek word is used, it refers to spirit beings called angels and is never used to refer to human messengers. I did NOT make that argument. Do you understand? I know everyone else here can understand what I'm saying, since it's not complicated.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And looking at Stephen

Acts 6:15 And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him,
saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

That verse would obviously make no sense if it was talking about Stephen's face appearing as if it had been the face of a human since he obviously was a human. So, this verse clearly is using the word "angel" to refer to a non-human.

Here is a man Daniel saw in a vision that was caused to fly swiftly here

Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Isn't this the same guy?

Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Anyone know how many years between Daniel and Mary here?

How can anyone think that Gabriel is a human messenger and not an angel? Are human messengers able to appear to people in visions and dreams and talk to them? Of course not. The amount of scriptural evidence showing the existence of real spirit beings called angels is overwhelming, but @TribulationSigns still denies it. Sad.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, sadly you needed a reminder because you are displaying incredible hostility toward CHRISTIANS!

As WPM already pointed out, here are a few things you have said to or about me:

If you don't know from the Word of God, I doubt you would learn from me.

We can lead to water, but have no power to make anyone drink!

I stated this in a way that even a small child could understand.

And I think you have said similar things to WPM, also. So, why do you think it is okay for you to display hostility towards Christians?

 

[TribulationSigns]

If that was the case, then why does it refer to the serpent (Satan), and the beast being cast into the lake of fire separately from those whose names are written in the book of life? The beast is referenced as being cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20, Satan in Revelation 20:10 and those whose names are not written in the book of life in Revelation 20:15. Your view makes all of those verses redundant, but the reality is that there is a distinction made between Satan, the beast and those whose names are not written in the book of life.

See...God doesn’t want His book of Revelation to be easy to understand. It is written in parabolic and symbolic form because it is not given by God for everyone to comprehend. It is called “The Revelation” because it is a spiritual revealing—understood only by those to whom God gives the Spirit of Revelation to discern what He is actually revealing.

Satan is NOT a distinct being separate from man. Not at all! That is why the spirit of man—being evil—cannot know the deep things of God. Because of this curse, divine truth is hidden from him. His spirit is of the earth, earthly.

2 Corinthians 4:4

• “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

Man is accursed and has become as a serpent, a viper, a locust, a scorpion, and so on—which is why Christ called them exactly that many times throughout Scripture. It is man's own rebellious mind is what blind them. Without Christ, man himself becomes the antichrist, because he carries the spirit of an adversary. And what is the name of that spirit of an adversary, again? Satan!

Because of the curse that God placed upon the serpent, unsaved man is spiritually a generation of serpents—a family under the same condemnation.

Matthew 23:33

• “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

The men with spirit of Satan cannot—because of the curse that comes from their own disobedience. Christ was addressing the generation of man, those under the curse as the spiritual family of serpents. If I’m wrong, then prove it with Scripture!

Galatians 3:10

• “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”

In short, cursed are the disobedient. God paints unsaved men as the body of the beast, serving their fallen spirit—that old serpent, called Satan. The casting of Satan into the lake of fire represents the final judgment of man’s corrupt spirit—Satan—along with all men who remain under that curse. Selah!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God does not spare the human messengers who lived in the days of Noah, who sinned, angels of God do not sin, they do God's bidding.

This is the verse that was being discussed.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Here is the verse following that one:

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

You are acting as if verse 4 is in relation to humans who lived in the days of Noah, but there is no indication of that. Verse 5 is where those who lived in the days of Noah are referenced, not verse 4. Verse 5 gives an additional example of God's judgment after the example given in verse 4. So, you are taking verse 4 out of context.

These human messengers of God are still in the lowest abyss. They went there after death took them in the waters of the flood that covered the earth.

And demons/devils/Satan have NEVER been fallen angels! They are from the beginning servants of evil.

In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus talked about an unbeliever (the rich man) being in Hades (translated as "hell"). That is where the souls and spirits of unbelievers are (hades), but 2 Peter 2:4 refers to angels being in Tartarus, not Hades.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

See...God doesn’t want His book of Revelation to be easy to understand.

LOL. Once again, you have imagined a way around an argument that you can't refute. Unbelievable. You do it over and over again. You think we can't see that? Regardless of the symbolism, it clearly differentiates between the dragon, Satan, the beast and those whose names are not written in the book of life. But, you try to basically make them all the same. I just can't take your arguments seriously.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do any of you consider Justin Martyr a respected ECF?

Not entirely. I certainly disagree with his view that the thousand years would occur after Jesus returns. I don't know a lot about what else he believed.

Justin Martyr on Genesis 6: Fallen Angels and the Pagan Gods - Chasing the Giants

Justin Martyr linked Genesis 6 and pagan gods to fallen angels. Discover how this 2nd-century apologist used angel theology to defend the Christian faith.

chasingthegiants.com

In The Second Apology, Justin directly addresses the pagan myths of his day. He argues that the stories of gods mating with mortals—so common in Greco-Roman lore—were not mere fantasy. Instead, they were distorted memories of a true and ancient event recorded in Genesis 6.

Here’s what Justin wrote:



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Justin Martyr: Everything About the Christian Apologist

Explore the life, writings, and influence of Justin Martyr, a key figure in early Christian apologetics and philosophy, whose legacy shaped theological discourse and Christian thought in the 2nd century.

www.bartehrman.com

He was just as wrong about that as he was with his Chiliast belief regarding the timing of the thousand years.