No one has seen God at any time, John?

[ScottA]

I’m expressing my theology as fully revealed in scripture - the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. My theology / my doctrine concerning God is the Messiah’s theology / doctrine concerning God. I’m reminding you that you called it “good” and excellent”.

I’ve stated it repeatedly.

"As fully revealed in scripture" is the issue. Because part was not revealed, but sealed...and that part is not included in your doctrine...or you could state just what it is, but cannot.

Be honest. Your doctrine is missing that part that was sealed.

 

[Matthias]

"As fully revealed in scripture" is the issue. Because part was not revealed, but sealed...and that part is not included in your doctrine...or you could state just what it is, but cannot.

Be honest. Your doctrine is missing that part that was sealed.

I’ve told you several times now that Jewish monotheism is fully compatible with the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism, from Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21.

I don’t go beyond what is written in scripture. Be honest. Admit that you do.

 

[ScottA]

The issue is that you are saying that Jesus is no longer a Jewish monotheist and I’m saying that he is.

I am not saying that. You are saying He is. Fine. But I am saying that Jesus is God, and that your theology is dated and limited to only what was revealed before that part that was sealed was revealed.

 

[Matthias]

I am not saying that. You are saying He is. Fine. But I am saying that Jesus is God, and that your theology is dated and limited to only what was revealed before that part that was sealed was revealed.

You’ve told me “nothing.”

My theology doesn’t go beyond the 1st century Jewish monotheism of Jesus, the apostles, and the earliest Christians.

 

[ScottA]

I’ve told you several times now that Jewish monotheism is fully compatible with the Messiah’s Jewish monotheism, from Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 22:21.

I don’t go beyond what is written in scripture. Be honest. Admit that you do.

I do--I admit that I have been beyond the cannon of what is written on parchment, caught up to the third heaven, and now speak what is not mine but His who sent me to reveal and finish the mystery of God as he declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[ScottA]

You’ve told me “nothing.”

My theology doesn’t go beyond the 1st century Jewish monotheism of Jesus, the apostles, and the earliest Christians.

God is my witness.

 

[Matthias]

I do--I admit that I have been beyond the cannon of what is written on parchment, caught up to the third heaven, and now speak what is not mine but His who sent me to reveal and finish the mystery of God as he declared to his servants the prophets.

Thank you. I recommend to you, as I do to all of my readers, to remember what Jude wrote concerning not going beyond what is written.

 

[Matthias]

God is my witness.

You already know what I think about that assertion. Do I need to use the “B” word?

 

[TLHKAJ]

Perhaps I should let @TLHKAJ answer...but those passages do not make void the fact that the Son was and is included in "let US create man in OUR image", whom are biblically defined as "One."

Because you mentioned me, I will quote you and point something out. :)

John 8:56-59
8.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.8.57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?8.58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.8.59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The words Jesus used that is translated "I am" in Greek is "ego eimi." "Ego eimi" literally means, "I Am." No past tense or explanation.... just a state of being that is existence itself, ever present. The Jews took up stones to stone Him because they understood exactly the claim Jesus made. In their books, Jesus had committed blasphemy by claiming to be God.

It is the same words used when God spoke out of the burning bush to Moses when he asked God His name. (Exodus 3:14)

The words God spoke out of the burning bush were "ego eimi ho on" which means "I Am the One who is."

When Jesus said, "ego eimi" ("I Am") He was using the divine name of the eternal God to identify Himself.

Now, look at this verse in Revelation. (especially vs 8)

Revelation 1:7-8
1.7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.1.8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

If there is ANY question who those words are speaking of, the context reveals it.

Revelation 1:9-18
1.9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.1.10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,1.11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.1.12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;1.13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.1.14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;1.15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.1.16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.1.17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:1.18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

John heard the voice say, "I am Alpha and Omega" and he turned to see who spoke to him.... he saw Jesus. The one who was pierced, He was dead, but lives and is alive forevermore ...He is the Almighty, the First and the Last.

Every place you see Jesus say, "I Am...." it is "ego eimi."

We can see the pattern is very consistent throughout the scriptures that point us to the true identity of Jesus Christ.

 

[Matthias]

@Riven do you want in on this? You can learn a lot in this thread.

 

[dak]

I do--I admit that I have been beyond the cannon of what is written on parchment, caught up to the third heaven, and now speak what is not mine but His who sent me to reveal and finish the mystery of God as he declared to his servants the prophets.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4
1 Surely it is of no profit for me to boast: but I come to visions and revelations of the LORD.
2 I know a man, prior to fourteen years in Meshiah, whether in the body, I know not, or whether out of the body, I know not: Elohim knows the certain such a one was caught up into the third heaven.
3 Also I know a man, a certain such a one, whether in the body, or whether out of the body, I know not: Elohim knows
4 that he was caught up into the Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The old man Sha'ul, or Saul, is caught up into the third heaven. The new man Paul is caught up into the Paradise, (yes, with the article it is emphatic, a proper noun, (hence, upper case "P")).

It is the new man Paul who hears unspeakable words which are not lawful for a man to utter: who does Paul hear? He hears his old man Saul blaspheming because both of them are being crucified with Meshiah.

The Gospel known as Luke is Paul's Gospel, (see Luke 23:39-43 concerning the above).
It appears you chose wrong in choosing "the third heaven", O prophet.

 

[ScottA]

Thank you. I recommend to you, as I do to all of my readers, to remember what Jude wrote concerning not going beyond what is written.

It is a good caution, but I specifically stated beyond what "is written on parchment", not what was written but sealed and not revealed during those days. And therefore I recommend you take more care not to quench the Spirit.

 

[Matthias]

It is a good caution, but I specifically stated beyond what "is written on parchment", not what was written but sealed and not revealed during those days. And therefore I recommend you take more care not to quench the Spirit.

I tested the spirit using the means prescribed and commended in scripture.

 

[ScottA]

You already know what I think about that assertion. Do I need to use the “B” word?

I come to you by the Spirit of God, and you threaten me. Do what you will.

 

[Matthias]

I come to you by the Spirit of God, and you threaten me. Do what you will.

I didn’t threaten you. I’m a pacifist. I listened to what you said and then searched the scriptures like the Bereans were commended for doing. Test the spirit, said John. I did.

 

[marks]

Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist.

You are presuming what Jesus believed about God, as if He "knew He was not God". You are essentially putting words into Jesus' mouth as though to deny Himself. I can declare you to be a hippopotamus but that won't make it true.

Meanwhile the Bible does not leave you that option.

What should we say about someone who says, "Jesus Himself was a Mormon"? What should we say about you?

 

[marks]

The apostles are all Jewish monotheists.

John 20:28 KJV
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Try telling that to Thomas.

Your presumption is again false.

 

[Matthias]

You are presuming what Jesus believed about God, as if He "knew He was not God".

Jesus knew he was God within the framework of Jewish monotheism.

You are essentially putting words into Jesus' mouth as though to deny Himself.

No.

I can declare you to be a hippopotamus but that won't make it true.

That‘s right. (I’m much closer to an owl than I am to a hippopotamus.)

Meanwhile the Bible does not leave you that option.

See above.

What should we say about someone who says, "Jesus Himself was a Mormon"?

We should say that they aren’t talking about the Jesus who is a Jewish monotheist.

What should we say about you?

You should say that I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth, himself a Jewish monotheist, is the Messiah, Son of the living God.

What do you say about @ScottA accusing trinitarians of rejecting Christ?

 

[Matthias]

John 20:28 KJV
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Try telling that to Thomas.

Your presumption is again false.

Thomas is a Jewish monotheist, just like Jesus himself is.

 

[marks]

John himself is a Jewish monotheist and it is my contention that what Jewish monotheists write should be understood as the Jewish monotheist writers understood them and intended their readers to understand them.

John 1:1-2 KJV
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2) The same was in the beginning with God.

Again, putting false words into the Apostle's mouth.

This is a clear example of constructing on a false foundation.