Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the Lord.

[soberxp]

You say that discussing the Third Temple in this time frame doesn’t make its supporters demons, only the Antichrist, unless they’re possessed by the devil.

But Jesus Himself clarifies who they are in John 8:44: “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.”
Those pushing the Third Temple reject Christ as Messiah and promote sacrifices that deny His finished work, aligning with the Antichrist’s agenda (2 Thessalonians 2:3–4). If they follow the devil’s will, not God’s, why should Christians support their efforts?

There are many secrets in this world that we don't know.

For example, many UFO and alien sighting reports have been deliberately fabricated to make it seem as if God is an alien with high-tech and immortality. I have seen a lot of such cases and feel that someone is intentionally distorting people's faith, just as they know God exists but still rebel against Him.

Another time, I saw a miracle in the sky in front of a supermarket. There were cameras at the entrance of the supermarket, but soon after that, the supermarket was demolished.The demolished supermarket was not torn down for real estate development.
Can you tell me if this is a coincidence?

I just think people are deceived by something, and that is the real enemy.

 

[soberxp]

Thanks for clarifying on the social credit score.

But I’m still puzzled: you say it’s "mainly for loans," yet China’s system restricts travel (air and high-speed rail) and even housing rentals for low scores. In the US, credit scores (300–850) are purely financial, based on payment history, debts, and credit use, affecting only loans, cards, or insurance—they don’t block plane tickets.

In Ukraine, each bank has its own client rating, not shared across banks: one might approve a $100k credit line based on its internal rating, while another could block all accounts, including basic debit cards, for unpaid debts—but no bank in Ukraine restricts buying plane tickets or renting housing due to credit ratings.

So, how does China’s system jump from loans to banning tickets or rentals? It feels like it’s not just credit but behavioral control with real-life penalties.

Is it expanding beyond debt into broader social monitoring?

It seems like someone’s not telling the whole story here.

According to the "Supreme People's Court's Provisions on Restricting the High Consumption of Persons Subject to Enforcement and Related Consumption", when a person subject to enforcement fails to perform the payment obligation specified in the effective legal document within the period designated in the execution notice, the people's court may take consumption restriction measures to limit their high consumption and other consumption unrelated to daily life or business operations. The specific circumstances are as follows:

- Natural persons: They are not allowed to engage in consumption behaviors such as taking planes, soft sleeper berths on trains, or second-class or higher berths on ships; consuming in high-consumption places such as star-rated hotels and restaurants; purchasing real estate, or building, expanding, or carrying out high-end decoration of houses; renting high-end office buildings and other places for office use; purchasing non-business-essential vehicles; traveling or taking vacations; sending their children to expensive private schools; paying high premiums to purchase insurance and wealth management products; and taking all seats on G-series high-speed trains or first-class or higher seats on other EMUs.
- Entities: After being subject to "high-consumption restriction" measures, the person subject to enforcement and its legal representatives, principal persons in charge, directly responsible persons affecting debt performance, and actual controllers shall not engage in the above-mentioned behaviors

 

[Lizbeth]

If the book is right, why should I treat it differently,

According to Christ, "It is finished " for Israel.
the "finished" nature of Israel’s role in biblical prophecy,
Why can't God continue to write a book to correct a believer's mistake, especially if it comes from a group, God uses another group to correct them,as God did it in the OT.

But now is, we are a group fight each other...

As Jesus Christ said: for I come not for peace, but word.

Jesus saying that He came not to bring peace but a sword was in context of having enemies/conflict even within one's own family/household. It is a sword that divides and bring conflict between people of the world and those who are of faith in Christ and belong to His kingdom.

What is or was the church's mistake that you are seeing, and how does the Koran correct it in your view?

I have talked with Muslims and unfortunately they are deceived and their doctrine confuses what the bible says. God is not the author of confusion. What I observe, it is the devil who wants to bring confusion in order to destabilize people, so he can plant seeds of error. That is his strategy. Also, the bible says if you have not the Son you have not the Father either, and unfortunately Islam denies the Son outright. Denying that God has a Son seems to be one of their basic tenets.

 

[Chrysostomos]

I think it's a mixture of good and evil. After the horrors and cruelty of the holocaust, as well as the antisemitism they often encounter in the diaspora generally, it is a "good" thing for the Jews to have their own homeland. I wouldn't want to stand in their way, and they are loved on account of the patriarchs. And God has apparently permitted it....He is the one who raises and lowers kings and kingdoms in His sovereignty. But the "evil" side of it, is how the devil may use it. Ultimately nothing will stop what has been prophesied....the Lord watches over His word to perform it. But idolizing the Jews/Israel is a deception and a snare...spiritually dangerous to the believer and not at all spiritually helpful to unbelieving Jews.

The bible is clear that we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, and friendship with the world is enmity with God.

Koreans, for example, have a right to their homeland too, yet we don’t argue Christians should support an atheistic regime like North Korea’s. The question isn’t whether Jews have a right to a state—it’s why Christians should back an ultra-right government mixed with religious Zionism pushing for a Third Temple, which denies Christ’s finished work and aligns with the Antichrist’s agenda (2 Thessalonians 2:3–4)?

Moreover, in light of recent events in Gaza, should we ask: Do Jews have a right to commit genocide in Gaza? And don’t Palestinians also have a right to a homeland and state, as per the UN’s two-state solution resolution?

 

[Chrysostomos]

The timing of events is both revealing and confusing, by design. Revealing, because before God does anything, as it is written: before they springs forth, I tell you of them. But also confusing, because time is apart from God and subject to the terms of this world, of both light and darkness.

For instance, Jesus said "It is finished" regarding all He came to do regarding the house of Israel, and yet without consideration of time, i. e. with God, it is written that He was slain even "before the foundation of the world." Meaning, Jesus could have said "It is finished" at any time, and it would be true--except the time of his speaking the words was also the time the events were made manifest--in the fulness of time. Making the times simply a matter of there revealing to us living in our times in this world. All events then are like the events written in a book before it was ever read, that are only then revealed when they are. And we, thinking that the times of this world are the gauge and measure of all things, think that when [we] come upon the information, it is somehow more important than what is revealed, that was so even before we came to know of it--even before the world came into being.

Such are the terms and revelations of "time no longer" (Revelation 10:6).

I get what you’re saying about God’s plan existing outside of time, where “It is finished” holds true before the world even began. It’s a deep perspective—events unfolding in our timeline are just glimpses of what’s already set in God’s eternal script. But I’m still stuck on how this applies to modern Israel and the repatriation we’re seeing. If God’s gathering Jews back to Israel, as some claim, why does it look so lopsided? From 1991 to 2001, 90% of repatriates—about 1 million people—came from former Soviet states (50% Russia, 30% Ukraine, 20% other CIS), while the US and Western Europe barely chipped in with less than 10%. Even now, 80% of olim are from the CIS. If this is divine ingathering, why isn’t it more global, especially from places like the US, where Jewish communities are huge and support for Israel is off the charts?

Your point about time being a human lens makes sense, but it doesn’t quite address the practical reality. Many of these CIS repatriates were secular communists just a generation ago, not exactly the biblical remnant. And yet, groups like AIPAC push the narrative that this is God’s plan unfolding. Meanwhile, more Israelis are moving to the US—5,000–6,000 in 2023, up to 50,000 in 2024—than Americans are making aliyah (around 3,000–3,500 a year). It feels less like a divine gathering and more like economic or geopolitical migration.

 

[soberxp]

I get what you’re saying about God’s plan existing outside of time, where “It is finished” holds true before the world even began. It’s a deep perspective—events unfolding in our timeline are just glimpses of what’s already set in God’s eternal script. But I’m still stuck on how this applies to modern Israel and the repatriation we’re seeing. If God’s gathering Jews back to Israel, as some claim, why does it look so lopsided? From 1991 to 2001, 90% of repatriates—about 1 million people—came from former Soviet states (50% Russia, 30% Ukraine, 20% other CIS), while the US and Western Europe barely chipped in with less than 10%. Even now, 80% of olim are from the CIS. If this is divine ingathering, why isn’t it more global, especially from places like the US, where Jewish communities are huge and support for Israel is off the charts?

Your point about time being a human lens makes sense, but it doesn’t quite address the practical reality. Many of these CIS repatriates were secular communists just a generation ago, not exactly the biblical remnant. And yet, groups like AIPAC push the narrative that this is God’s plan unfolding. Meanwhile, more Israelis are moving to the US—5,000–6,000 in 2023, up to 50,000 in 2024—than Americans are making aliyah (around 3,000–3,500 a year). It feels less like a divine gathering and more like economic or geopolitical migration.

Ecclesiastes 12:8

Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

Koreans, for example, have a right to their homeland too, yet we don’t argue Christians should support an atheistic regime like North Korea’s. The question isn’t whether Jews have a right to a state—it’s why Christians should back an ultra-right government mixed with religious Zionism pushing for a Third Temple, which denies Christ’s finished work and aligns with the Antichrist’s agenda (2 Thessalonians 2:3–4)?

Moreover, in light of recent events in Gaza, should we ask: Do Jews have a right to commit genocide in Gaza? And don’t Palestinians also have a right to a homeland and state, as per the UN’s two-state solution resolution?

Ecclesiastes 12:8
Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

 

[soberxp]

Jesus saying that He came not to bring peace but a sword was in context of having enemies/conflict even within one's own family/household. It is a sword that divides and bring conflict between people of the world and those who are of faith in Christ and belong to His kingdom.

What is or was the church's mistake that you are seeing, and how does the Koran correct it in your view?

I have talked with Muslims and unfortunately they are deceived and their doctrine confuses what the bible says. God is not the author of confusion. What I observe, it is the devil who wants to bring confusion in order to destabilize people, so he can plant seeds of error. That is his strategy. Also, the bible says if you have not the Son you have not the Father either, and unfortunately Islam denies the Son outright. Denying that God has a Son seems to be one of their basic tenets.

Ecclesiastes 12:8
Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

 

[Lizbeth]

Ecclesiastes 12:8
Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

Hmm, Solomon also said meaningless. This is the second time you haven't answered this same question. You have made certain statements about the Koran, but why won't you discuss it?

 

[soberxp]

Hmm, Solomon also said meaningless. This is the second time you haven't answered this same question. You have made certain statements about the Koran, but why won't you discuss it?

Like I said, it was to fix the problem then more problem come up.

If you would like to call Jesus Christ is God,
I would like to use God made Jesus Christ in the image of God.

God can forgive sins.
If you ask me how about people do not believe in Jesus Christ, how they can be saved, they says Allah forgives their sins...

Ecclesiastes 12:8
Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

 

[Lizbeth]

Like I said, it was to fix the problem then more problem come up.

If you would like to call Jesus Christ is God,
I would like to use God made Jesus Christ in the image of God.

God can forgive sins.
If you ask me how about people do not believe in Jesus Christ, how they can be saved, they says Allah forgives their sins...

Ecclesiastes 12:8
Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

The bible is clear that there is no salvation (eternal life) apart from faith in Jesus Christ. And it says, if anyone has not the Son, they have not the Father either.

So you are saying the Koran tells them Allah grants them salvation and this is without Jesus Christ? How can that be true since it contradicts the scriptures? "If anyone have not the Spirit they are none of His." Anyone who is "appointed to salvation" will have Christ and the gospel revealed to them...their eyes will be opened to the truth.

 

[MatthewG]

Paul also says you can marry an unbeliever if a person wants to.

It's all about faith... and having love for your fellow neighbor.

I dont think you would let your family member suffer if they were an atheist...

Say they were on their death bed, and 80 years old.

You can cut off people out of your life if they are immensely evil...

Sometimes jail is good place for them, or away from you all together.

 

[MatthewG]

Some people will cut their son or daughter off cause they are gay or a lesbian.

Wishing they never been born and they are supposedly a Christian...

I mean lets get real here.

 

[JLB]

In 2 Chronicles 19:1–3, we find the account of Jehoshaphat, king of Judah, rebuked by the prophet Jehu, son of Hanani, for his alliance with Ahab, the wicked king of Israel. Jehoshaphat joined Ahab in a military campaign against Ramoth-Gilead (2 Chron. 18:1–3), despite Ahab’s idolatry, including his worship of Baal (1 Kings 16:31–33), which led Israel into apostasy. The prophet Jehu confronted Jehoshaphat directly:

“Jehoshaphat, king of Judah, returned safely to his house in Jerusalem. And Jehu the son of Hanani, the seer, went out to meet him and said to King Jehoshaphat, ‘Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Because of this, wrath has gone out against you from the Lord. Nevertheless, there are good things found in you, for you have removed the idols from the land of Judah and have set your heart to seek God’” (2 Chron. 19:1–3, NKJV).

This episode reveals that supporting a wicked Israel, embodied by Ahab, who “hated the Lord” through idolatry, provoked God’s anger. Though righteous, Jehoshaphat erred by allying with God’s enemy. This scriptural example clearly shows that supporting those who oppose God is sinful, even if it appears politically justified.

The modern state of Israel, established in 1948, is a secular nation where most citizens do not adhere to strict religious traditions. However, ultra-Orthodox Jews, a significant minority, openly reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Numerous documented incidents show ultra-Orthodox Jews spitting on Christians in public, spitting as they pass Christian churches, or when they see crucifixes. These acts are captured in countless videos available online and corroborated by eyewitness accounts in Israeli and international media.

Moreover, some Israelis and religious groups actively push for the construction of a Third Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. According to Scripture, this Temple will become the seat of the Antichrist:

“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess. 2:3–4, NKJV).

Supporting the construction of a Third Temple, where the Antichrist will reign according to prophecy, directly contradicts Christian teaching, as it seeks to restore Old Testament rituals that deny Christ’s redemptive sacrifice.

Questions for Christian Zionists: Why Support the Third Temple?

Christian Zionists, influenced by John Nelson Darby’s dispensationalism, fervently support the state of Israel and the idea of building a Third Temple. But why? Do they believe that Christ’s Second Coming will occur in the Third Temple, and that the Jews, who rejected Him as the Messiah, will suddenly recognize Jesus as the same Messiah they crucified, accepting Him this time instead of crucifying Him again? How can they reconcile their faith in Jesus as Savior with supporting a project tied to the Antichrist, who “sits as God in the temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:3–4)? Their actions raise serious questions: Are they following Christ or succumbing to manipulations disguised as prophecy?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world of unsaved people?

 

[Chrysostomos]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world of unsaved people?

Let’s read further in John 3:18–20:

“Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.”

And John 3:36: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”

This is why I reject the heresy of apokatastasis—the idea that everyone, even the “unsaved people,” will ultimately be saved and reconciled with God.
This was condemned as heresy at the Fifth Ecumenical Council (Second Council of Constantinople) in 553 AD. God’s love offers salvation through Christ alone (Acts 4:12), but those who reject Him remain under His wrath.

 

[ScottA]

I get what you’re saying about God’s plan existing outside of time, where “It is finished” holds true before the world even began. It’s a deep perspective—events unfolding in our timeline are just glimpses of what’s already set in God’s eternal script. But I’m still stuck on how this applies to modern Israel and the repatriation we’re seeing. If God’s gathering Jews back to Israel, as some claim, why does it look so lopsided? From 1991 to 2001, 90% of repatriates—about 1 million people—came from former Soviet states (50% Russia, 30% Ukraine, 20% other CIS), while the US and Western Europe barely chipped in with less than 10%. Even now, 80% of olim are from the CIS. If this is divine ingathering, why isn’t it more global, especially from places like the US, where Jewish communities are huge and support for Israel is off the charts?

Your point about time being a human lens makes sense, but it doesn’t quite address the practical reality. Many of these CIS repatriates were secular communists just a generation ago, not exactly the biblical remnant. And yet, groups like AIPAC push the narrative that this is God’s plan unfolding. Meanwhile, more Israelis are moving to the US—5,000–6,000 in 2023, up to 50,000 in 2024—than Americans are making aliyah (around 3,000–3,500 a year). It feels less like a divine gathering and more like economic or geopolitical migration.

It is not God's divine ingathering, but the revealing of "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Which is not about that one son, about one man of sin, but about his body among the body of Christ--as the tares among the wheat--each being many.

 

[Chrysostomos]

The Bible says we're to love everybody.

Where did you read that?

Does God love Satan and his followers? Does He extend His love to His enemies?
Why should we love those who seek to harm us without cause?
Does God forgive those who never seek His forgiveness?
Does He pardon those who reject Jesus, despite the salvation He offers?
Why should I forgive those who wish me harm, show no mercy, and take pleasure in my suffering?

They don’t ask for forgiveness, yet revel in causing pain.
If God’s wrath remains on those who reject His Son (John 3:36), why should Christians support or align with those who oppose Christ’s truth?

 

[ScottA]

Where did you read that?

Does God love Satan and his followers? Does He extend His love to His enemies?
Why should we love those who seek to harm us without cause?
Does God forgive those who never seek His forgiveness?
Does He pardon those who reject Jesus, despite the salvation He offers?
Why should I forgive those who wish me harm, show no mercy, and take pleasure in my suffering?

They don’t ask for forgiveness, yet revel in causing pain.
If God’s wrath remains on those who reject His Son (John 3:36), why should Christians support or align with those who oppose Christ’s truth?

Yes! So the difference is not that we should love our enemies, but to pray for them, for we too were once enemies of God--which is the measure of love that is assigned to us, beyond which matters are in God's hands and not ours.

 

[JLB]

Let’s read further in John 3:18–20:

“Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.”

And John 3:36: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”

This is why I reject the heresy of apokatastasis—the idea that everyone, even the “unsaved people,” will ultimately be saved and reconciled with God.
This was condemned as heresy at the Fifth Ecumenical Council (Second Council of Constantinople) in 553 AD. God’s love offers salvation through Christ alone (Acts 4:12), but those who reject Him remain under His wrath.

‘Let’s try it again.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world of unsaved people?


Yes, God loves the world.

No, God doesn’t love the world.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

Where did you read that?

I think it will help you if you read the New Testament before joining a Bible discussion.

Click above

 

[ProverbsInPink]

Yes! So the difference is not that we should love our enemies, but to pray for them, for we too were once enemies of God--which is the measure of love that is assigned to us, beyond which matters are in God's hands and not ours.

Matthew 5

You're deleting scripture.
Don't do that.