Why would you assume that I would parrot whatever you said? As if you are the arbiter of truth.
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Apokatastasis in the Bible
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Lol I'm not the arbiter of truth but I do expect people to at least consider what I say and attempt to understand it.
Why would you presume that God might be making sport of our eternal destination if things are not as you believe them to be?
Perhaps very simply only few find it because the vast majority are not seriously searching. They are not really interested in more than what they are able to have here and now on this planet Earth during the time they have here. This would include probably many who call themselves Christians.
Is not NOW the time for men to seek and to ask and to knock? How many have done this and are continuing to do this?
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It's my reaction to the view of that scripture. That the narrow gate is something that is nearly impossible to find. (few find it) which infers to me that many looked and were UNABLE to find it. The sport is solving the puzzle with your "eternal" destiny at risk. (in the standard interpretation)
That's a good point. And it begs a HUGE question. If no one needs it, then does anyone need it? We have been told all of our lives that we need to be saved. Those who haven't been told that feel no need for it. What should we conclude? (I'm thinking out loud here)
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It's hard to find because they don't want to find it. Not because it's a puzzle.
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." - Matthew 7:7-8
I don't think you want to know the true God either. You're blinded by your inability to accept that some will spend an eternity away from God.
I'm just guessing here, so I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but maybe it's because you want to keep sinning? Have you repented? Do you take up your cross daily? Do we even agree on what sin is and what things God has condemned?
The standard interpretation does not matter at all if it does not agree with what God knows.
Again you are arguing as if what men say or think must equal what God says or thinks. That is using man's logic as a means to draw your conclusions instead of faith in God.
| Lu 18:8 | ...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? |
Agree. That is why I am addressing the implications of the standard interpretation. "Few find it"? !!!
Is that how God operates?
Biblical interpretation is a human activity. Granted, it should be led by the Spirit, but I'm not sure how we can steer around our human thinking to engage with the scriptures.
You seem to be inferring that I am missing the point of this scripture entirely. What is your view?
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New topic.
www.christianityboard.com
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Plundering my religious upbringing - The desert island question
While composing a response post on another thread (obviously) it occurred to me the benefits I received from my religious upbringing. I spend plenty of time talking against it now, but only occasionally speak to the benefits. Others may have taken a similar path. Started in one place and...
www.christianityboard.com
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How does God operate? Do you suppose that I know the answer to that question? Some on this forum from what I see seem to know His answer often or even always. Might they be wrong? Are we not supposed to live by faith rather than by knowledge? What do we know?
Perhaps, believing that "we can steer" is the problem. Perhaps continuous surrender to Him is the only Way. Who is able to do that? Can we ask God to help us surrender?
| Ro 1:17 | For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. |
I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church.
Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text.
Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out.
Here it is.
Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps you can't see it? I can help.
"... until the time comes for God to restore everything,"
There it is. Here's the NT Greek.
ἀποκαταστάσεως (apokatastaseōs) — 1 Occurrence
Acts 3:21 N-GFS
GRK: ἄχρι χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως πάντων ὧν
NAS: [the] period of restoration of all things
KJV: the times of restitution of all things,
INT: until times of restoration of all things of which
So, "What is it?" you might ask.
Apocatastasis
In theology, apocatastasis is the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection.
In Christianity, it is a form of Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm often told that Christian Universalism isn't in the Bible.
Now we know better.
Agree or disagree?
[
Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text.
Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out.
Here it is.
Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps you can't see it? I can help.
"... until the time comes for God to restore everything,"
There it is. Here's the NT Greek.
ἀποκαταστάσεως (apokatastaseōs) — 1 Occurrence
Acts 3:21 N-GFS
GRK: ἄχρι χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως πάντων ὧν
NAS: [the] period of restoration of all things
KJV: the times of restitution of all things,
INT: until times of restoration of all things of which
So, "What is it?" you might ask.
Apocatastasis
In theology, apocatastasis is the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection.
In Christianity, it is a form of Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm often told that Christian Universalism isn't in the Bible.
Now we know better.
Agree or disagree?
[
I'm often told that Christian Universalism isn't in the Bible.
Not true.
I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church.
Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text.
Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out.
Here it is.
Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps you can't see it? I can help.
"... until the time comes for God to restore everything,"
There it is. Here's the NT Greek.
ἀποκαταστάσεως (apokatastaseōs) — 1 Occurrence
Acts 3:21 N-GFS
GRK: ἄχρι χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως πάντων ὧν
NAS: [the] period of restoration of all things
KJV: the times of restitution of all things,
INT: until times of restoration of all things of which
So, "What is it?" you might ask.
Apocatastasis
In theology, apocatastasis is the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection.
In Christianity, it is a form of Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm often told that Christian Universalism isn't in the Bible.
Now we know better.
Agree or disagree?
[
Not true.
I thought Apokatastasis was only a theological term from the early church.
Now I come to find out that it is in the Bible as a word in the NT Greek text.
Thanks to my good friend and dear brother @Chadrho for pointing it out.
Here it is.
Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything,
as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps you can't see it? I can help.
"... until the time comes for God to restore everything,"
There it is. Here's the NT Greek.
ἀποκαταστάσεως (apokatastaseōs) — 1 Occurrence
Acts 3:21 N-GFS
GRK: ἄχρι χρόνων ἀποκαταστάσεως πάντων ὧν
NAS: [the] period of restoration of all things
KJV: the times of restitution of all things,
INT: until times of restoration of all things of which
So, "What is it?" you might ask.
Apocatastasis
In theology, apocatastasis is the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection.
In Christianity, it is a form of Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm often told that Christian Universalism isn't in the Bible.
Now we know better.
Agree or disagree?
[
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
What if I don't think that that the creation was ever in a state of perfection?
Adam and Eve may have started in God's paradise, but when they sinned, there was already a wilderness next door for them to be exiled into. When Cain committed murder, he got exiled even further from paradise, into a desert...
No, you are stretching it to fit your doctrine. Misappropriation.
Will Satan be restored?
Revelation 20:10 KJV
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
From Robertson's Word Pictures:
Acts 3:21
Restoration (apokatastaseōs). Double compound (apo, kata, histēmi), here only in the N.T., though common in late writers. In papyri and inscriptions for repairs to temples and this phrase occurs in Jewish apocalyptic writings, something like the new heaven and the new earth of Rev_21:1. Paul has a mystical allusion also to the agony of nature in Rom_8:20-22. The verb apokathistēmi is used by Jesus of the spiritual and moral restoration wrought by the Baptist as Elijah (Mat_17:11; Mar_9:12) and by the disciples to Jesus in Act_1:6. Josephus uses the word of the return from captivity and Philo of the restitution of inheritances in the year of jubilee. As a technical medical term it means complete restoration to health. See a like idea in palingenesia (renewal, new birth) in Mat_19:28; Tit_3:5. This universalism of Peter will be clearer to him after Joppa and Caesarea.
Adam Clarke:
The times of restitution of all things - The word αποκαταστασις, from απο which signifies from, and καθιστανειν, to establish or settle any thing, viz. in a good state; and, when απο is added to it, then this preposition implies that this good state, in which it is settled, was preceded by a bad one, from which the change is made to a good one. So in Act_1:6, when the disciples said to Christ, Wilt thou at this time restore again (αποκαθιστανεις) the kingdom to Israel? they meant, as the Greek word implies, Wilt thou take the kingdom from the Romans, and give it back to the Jews? Now, as the word is here connected with, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets, it must mean the accomplishment of all the prophecies and promises contained in the Old Testament relative to the kingdom of Christ upon earth; the whole reign of grace, from the ascension of our Lord till his coming again, for of all these things have the holy prophets spoken; and, as the grace of the Gospel was intended to destroy the reign of sin, its energetic influence is represented as restoring all things, destroying the bad state, and establishing the good - taking the kingdom out of the hands of sin and Satan, and putting it into those of righteousness and truth. This is done in every believing soul; all things are restored to their primitive order; and the peace of God, which passes all understanding, keeps the heart and mind in the knowledge and love of God. The man loves God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength, and his neighbor as himself; and thus all the things of which the holy prophets have spoken since the world began, relative to the salvation of any soul, are accomplished in this case; and when such a work becomes universal, as the Scriptures seem to intimate that it will, then all things will be restored in the fullest sense of the term. As therefore the subject here referred to is that of which all the prophets from the beginning have spoken, (and the grand subject of all their declarations was Christ and his work among men), therefore the words are to be applied to this, and no other meaning. Jesus Christ comes to raise up man from a state of ruin, and restore to him the image of God, as he possessed it at the beginning.
Bullinger:
restitution. Greek. apokatastasis = re-establishment from a state of ruin. Only here.
Scofield:
restitution
(Greek - ναός = restoration, occurring here and Act_1:6 only. The meaning is limited by the words: "Which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets." The prophets speak of the restoration of Israel to the land (see "Israel,"; Gen_12:2; Gen_12:3; Rom_11:26 also "Palestinian Covenant," Deu_30:1-9. (See Scofield on Deu_30:3) and of the restoration the theocracy under David’s Son. (See "Davidic Covenant," 2Sa_7:8-17).
(See Scofield on 2Sa_7:16), "Kingdom," Gen_1:26-28. (See Scofield on Zec_12:8). No prediction of the conversion and restoration of the wicked dead is found in the prophets, or elsewhere. CF Rev_20:11-15.
Barnes:
The times of the restitution of all things - The noun rendered restitution ἀποκαταστάσεως apokatastaseōs, does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. The verb from which it is derived occurs eight times. It means properly “to restore a thing to its former situation,” as restoring a “strained” or “dislocated” limb to its former soundness. Hence, it is used to restore, or to heal, in the New Testament: Mat_12:13, “And it (the hand) was restored whole as the other”; Mar_3:5; Luk_6:10. And hence, it is applied to the preparation or fitness for the coming of the Messiah which was to attend the preaching of John in the character of Elias, Mat_17:11; Mar_9:12. Thus, in Josephus (Antiq., Mar_2:3, Mar_2:8), the word is used to denote the return of the Jews from the captivity of Babylon, and their restoration to their former state and privileges. The word has also the idea of “consummation, completion, or filling up.” Thus, it is used in Philo, Hesychius, Phavorinus, and by the Greek Classics. (See Lightfoot and Kuinoel.) Thus, it is used here by the Syriac: “Until the complement or filling up of the times”; that is, of all the events foretold by the prophets, etc. Thus, the Arabic: “Until the times which shall establish the perfection or completion of all the predictions of the prophets,” etc. In this sense the passage means that the heavens must receive the Lord Jesus until all thrums spoken by the prophets in relation to his work, his reign, the spread of the gospel, the triumph of religion, etc., shall have been fulfilled. It also conveys the idea of the predicted recovery of the world from sin, and the restoration of peace and order; the con. summation of the work of the Messiah, now begun, but not yet complete; slow it may be in its advances, but triumphant and certain in its progress and its close.
All things - All things which have been foretold by the prophets. The expression is limited by the connection to this; and of course it does not mean that all people will be saved, or that all the evils of sin can be repaired or remedied. This can never be, for the mischief is done and cannot be undone; but everything which the prophets have foretold shall receive their completion and fulfillment.
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And so on.
Context.
Acts 3:19-22 KJV
19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 1:6-7 KJV
6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Much love!
Fair enough.
What if we say "original condition" instead of perfection?
Apocatastasis is the restoration of creation to its original condition. (brand new)
Interesting points.
Would we recognize paradise without a wilderness next door to compare it to?
The planet probably needs all these varied regions to operate properly.
The desert might be a welcome retreat away from the daily rain in the Garden. (orchard)
A Horse With No Name
America
CHORUS
I've been through the desert
On a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of the rain
In the desert, you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain
La, la, la, la, la, la
La, la, la, la, la, la
La, la, la, la, la, la
La, la, la, la, la, la
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I just recalled that Noah's flood is explained as a break in the streams (mist)
coming up from whole surface of the ground to water the earth.
How could there be deserts if this was global?
Genesis 2:6 NIV
but streams[a] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.
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Thanks for your post.
It seems to support Apokatastasis on some level. (beyond the doctrinal bias)
It would be the ultimate triumph of grace.
Jesus taught us that loving our enemies is godly behavior.
What then should He do with His?
Or do you believe that He operates at a lower standard than He holds us to?
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Don't be confused over your role in the universe. You are not God.
It would be the ultimate repudiation of God's Word by God Himself. He does not speak in vain.
Ignore His warnings at your own peril. That God tells us to love our enemies, even as God loves His enemies, in no wise means that He will not judge exactly as He has said He will.
Yes, you are not to judge others. But don't be confused about whether God will judge. Your judgment is unjust. His is not. That's the difference.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Ok, but I think I have it better than Adam. I have central heating, Sunday football, and a freezer full of ice cream. Plus my wife doesn't talk to snakes, as far as I know.
Why do I need restoration if my world is better than the original one?
Yes, I suppose modesty covering wasn't the only thing A&E used fig leaves for. - LOL
That's a good question.
The restoration in question goes much further than the terra firma.
Humankind needs restoration. A return to original condition. (nudity aside)
Hopefully you can imagine room for improvement in that category.
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