Why I don't believe in a pretrib rapture

[GodsGrace]

Already did.
Scripture is Knowledge, which was posted to you, for you.

Understanding the knowledge is not something I can DO FOR You, or You can Figure out FOR you.

“Caught up” (who and from where to where) is clearly revealed BY Paul.
If you require Lessons in Languages…from Aramaic, to Greek, to Italian, to English…
That’s on you to learn and discover… or apparently so far… NOT your interest.

You have not posted ANY scripture that posits that some rapture is going to take place.
You misunderstand Thessalonians and don't even seem to know WHY Paul wrote to them regarding the end times.

As to languages....
Do you not trust those that have translated the NT for you?
Apparently you not only do not trust THEM...
you do not trust Jesus or Paul and prefer to make up your own theology.....

You're not following the knowledge given by Jesus or Paul...
but the theology of John Nelson Darby in about 1830.

If you prefer to follow a man's teaching instead of that of Jesus and Paul
THAT is on you.

 

[Taken]

Jesus said no one knows the time,,,and yet we have Christians trying to figure out the time.

No one Knows the hour of Jesus’ RETURN TO Earth.

Howe ever there ARE many “sign”, “indicators”… that the Hour of His “RETURN TO Earth” is drawing neigh.

I don’t speak FOR ANYONE, or Bother with wasting my time listening to others (Christian or not), who are Preaching Dates of Jesus’ “supposed” Return to Earth”.

Paul did not teach any rapture.

Your opinion…
Fact… The Blind can Not See.
Paul DID in fact Preach they IN Christ would be “caught UP” to meet THEIR Lord, in the air.
If that does not apply to you, That is by your own FREEWILL choices you have made.

 

[JLB]

13) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16) And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

You see, this makes a specific statement of who is being afflicted. This great tribulation is against Israel. And the entire world, but primarily Israel.

Much love!

Israel is not mentioned in Revelation 12.


There is the kingdom of God, and the kingdoms of this world mentioned.


The Holy Spirit expressing the dominion of the Kingdom of God through the Church, and Satan expressing his dominion through the kingdoms of this world.


The woman is clothed with the Sun.

And has the “moon” under her feet, an expression of dominance of the “moon”.


‘Why would you believe the woman clothed with the Sun represents unsaved Jews?

 

[GodsGrace]

No one Knows the hour of Jesus’ RETURN TO Earth.

Howe ever there ARE many “sign”, “indicators”… that the Hour of His “RETURN TO Earth” is drawing neigh.

Changing the subject?

I don’t speak FOR ANYONE, or Bother with wasting my time listening to others (Christian or not), who are Preaching Dates of Jesus’ “supposed” Return to Earth”.

Changing the subject?

Your opinion…
Fact… The Blind can Not See.
Paul DID in fact Preach they IN Christ would be “caught UP” to meet THEIR Lord, in the air.
If that does not apply to you, That is by your own FREEWILL choices you have made.

Clear scripture is "my opinion"?


Here is YOUR scripture, in some more detail for those reading along that may be interested in knowing that the rapture is a false teaching invented by a man in the 1830's...by the name of John Nelson Darby.

Like Muhammad...
Like Ellen White...
Like Charles Russell...
etc.

MEN that make up their own religion instead of followin the religion/faith that JESUS taught.

Here is YOUR passage of scripture:



1 Thessalonians 4:16-18


"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of
God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are still alive, who are left, will be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage
one another with these words.

I'll also post the NLT version for some reading along:


11 Make it your goal to live a quiet life, minding your own business and working with your hands, just as we instructed you before.
12 Then people who are not believers will respect the way you live, and you will not need to depend on others.
13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves.
17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
18 So encourage each other with these words.



1. As you know, Thessalonians was written to the people of Thessalonica who had stopped living their daily lives because the believed the RETURN OF JESUS was imminent. Paul wrote to them teaching them that it cannot be known when Jesus would return and to continue in their daily, normal lives.
(this is general knowledge).

Paul was also teaching them that THEIR HOPE was in the RESURRECTION. They were not to listen to those that taught that there was no resurrection.
See verses 13, 14


2. Please note verses 15-17.
Please note that it does not speak of a rapture but of the SECOND COMING of Jesus, at the end of the world.

The living will NOT meet Jesus first. The opposite of your belief.
Verse 15

Jesus will return and those that have DIED will be raised first (to their glorified body).
Verse 16

THEN the living who are alive at the 2nd coming...will ALSO be caught up ....
and BOTH will be with the Lord forever.
Verse 17

 

[JLB]

No one Knows the hour of Jesus’ RETURN TO Earth.

‘No one knows the day or hour.

By saying this Jesus is making a reference to the feast of trumpets which begins when the new moon is sighted and signaled by those “watching” by the trumpet blast.

It could have been on the 30th day of the month or the first day of the new month, thus the saying no man knows the day or hour is a reference to the feast of trumpets.


We can know of His return within a week or so, as the Day of the LORD will not come as a thief in the night for Christians who are watching.



But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:4

 

[GeneZ]

When is the second resurrection?

As I've said many times,,,I don't know much about eschatology...
7 seals and all that.

I agree with some of what you've said IF I've understood it correctly.

However, I do NOT believe there is a TRIBULATION, at which time SOME may be taken away and unbelievers left.
There will be a final tribulation -
but no rapture as is understood today.

Beyond this, I have nothing more to add.
Jesus came one time.
He'll be coming back a second time, at the end of the world.
At this time there will be a great rapture of those still living.

But at the end of the world.

The Rapture is not the Lord's return to earth.
It will happen up in the clouds above the earth, not to be seen by those on earth.

 

[Taken]

Changing the subject?


Changing the subject?


Clear scripture is "my opinion"?


Here is YOUR scripture, in some more detail for those reading along that may be interested in knowing that the rapture is a false teaching invented by a man in the 1830's...by the name of John Nelson Darby.

Like Muhammad...
Like Ellen White...
Like Charles Russell...
etc.

MEN that make up their own religion instead of followin the religion/faith that JESUS taught.

Here is YOUR passage of scripture:



1 Thessalonians 4:16-18


"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of
God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are still alive, who are left, will be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage
one another with these words.

I'll also post the NLT version for some reading along:


11 Make it your goal to live a quiet life, minding your own business and working with your hands, just as we instructed you before.
12 Then people who are not believers will respect the way you live, and you will not need to depend on others.
13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves.
17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
18 So encourage each other with these words.



1. As you know, Thessalonians was written to the people of Thessalonica who had stopped living their daily lives because the believed the RETURN OF JESUS was imminent. Paul wrote to them teaching them that it cannot be known when Jesus would return and to continue in their daily, normal lives.
(this is general knowledge).

Paul was also teaching them that THEIR HOPE was in the RESURRECTION. They were not to listen to those that taught that there was no resurrection.
See verses 13, 14


2. Please note verses 15-17.
Please note that it does not speak of a rapture but of the SECOND COMING of Jesus, at the end of the world.

The living will NOT meet Jesus first. The opposite of your belief.
Verse 15

Jesus will return and those that have DIED will be raised first (to their glorified body).
Verse 16

THEN the living who are alive at the 2nd coming...will ALSO be caught up ....
and BOTH will be with the Lord forever.
Verse 17

Matt 13:
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

 

[Taken]

‘No one knows the day or hour.

Correct.

By saying this Jesus is making a reference to the feast of trumpets which begins when the new moon is sighted and signaled by those “watching” by the trumpet blast.

It could have been on the 30th day of the month or the first day of the new month, thus the saying no man knows the day or hour is a reference to the feast of trumpets.

Not sure about that.

We can know of His return within a week or so, as the Day of the LORD will not come as a thief in the night for Christians who are watching.

Disagree.
The Rapture shall be with a warning of a Trump, that the “prepared” shall hear, (regardless if they call themselves Christian’s or not).

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:4

The “prepared” are Not in Darkness, They Are ready to be Taken up at ANY moment.

The Unprepared ARE in Darkness, and shall be surprised by the judgements sent down from heaven. (They are defenseless as one would be against a Thief in the night).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

Matt 13:
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

No parables here Taken. Just very clear teachings from Paul.
And do you think Jesus did NOT want persons to understand Him?

or
Perhaps you THINK some on these boards don't understand Him?

I repeat....
I see no scripture from you.

Not a good sign.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Rapture is not the Lord's return to earth.
It will happen up in the clouds above the earth, not to be seen by those on earth.

I ask because THERE IS NO SECOND RESURRECTION.

And it will NOT be happening ANYWHERE since it does not exist.

However, you're allowed to believe what you will,,,
and this will be my last post to you.

 

[Taken]

No parables here Taken. Just very clear teachings from Paul.
And do you think Jesus did NOT want persons to understand Him?

or
Perhaps you THINK some on these boards don't understand Him?

I repeat....
I see no scripture from you.

Not a good sign.

Yes I have provided Scriptures or References to Scriptures.

No answers from you.

Really want to Know …
Why is the Lamb of God ANGRY with those Baptized IN Christ, by the Lamb of God?

 

[David in NJ]

Israel is not mentioned in Revelation 12.


There is the kingdom of God, and the kingdoms of this world mentioned.


The Holy Spirit expressing the dominion of the Kingdom of God through the Church, and Satan expressing his dominion through the kingdoms of this world.


The woman is clothed with the Sun.

And has the “moon” under her feet, an expression of dominance of the “moon”.


‘Why would you believe the woman clothed with the Sun represents unsaved Jews?

@JLB and @marks

Do you know what the symbolism of the "Sun and Moon represent in Revelation ch12" ???

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes I have provided Scriptures or References to Scriptures.

No answers from you.

Really want to Know …
Why is the Lamb of God ANGRY with those Baptized IN Christ, by the Lamb of God?

oops!
Changing the subject again!

And you apparently missed all my posts with scripture.

Including no. 324


Here it is again...
it's YOUR scripture which, apparently, is misunderstood....

---------------------------------------------------------------
post no. 324

Clear scripture is "my opinion"?


Here is YOUR scripture, in some more detail for those reading along that may be interested in knowing that the rapture is a false teaching invented by a man in the 1830's...by the name of John Nelson Darby.

Like Muhammad...
Like Ellen White...
Like Charles Russell...
etc.

MEN that make up their own religion instead of followin the religion/faith that JESUS taught.

Here is YOUR passage of scripture:



1 Thessalonians 4:16-18


"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of
God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are still alive, who are left, will be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage
one another with these words.

I'll also post the NLT version for some reading along:


11 Make it your goal to live a quiet life, minding your own business and working with your hands, just as we instructed you before.
12 Then people who are not believers will respect the way you live, and you will not need to depend on others.
13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves.
17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
18 So encourage each other with these words.



1. As you know, Thessalonians was written to the people of Thessalonica who had stopped living their daily lives because the believed the RETURN OF JESUS was imminent. Paul wrote to them teaching them that it cannot be known when Jesus would return and to continue in their daily, normal lives.
(this is general knowledge).


Paul was also teaching them that THEIR HOPE was in the RESURRECTION. They were not to listen to those that taught that there was no resurrection.
See verses 13, 14


2. Please note verses 15-17.
Please note that it does not speak of a rapture but of the SECOND COMING of Jesus, at the end of the world.

The living will NOT meet Jesus first. The opposite of your belief.
Verse 15

Jesus will return and those that have DIED will be raised first (to their glorified body).
Verse 16

THEN the living who are alive at the 2nd coming...will ALSO be caught up ....
and BOTH will be with the Lord forever.
Verse 17

 

[Bladerunner]

I believe the soul and spirit ARE separate things.
It was confusing when you appeared to lump them together “as the same thing”.

Further confusing, you saying the soul of man, the spirit of man Can NOT die.

How would you describe…
What a body of man is?
What a soul of man is?
What a spirit of man is?

Glory to God,
Taken

I wrote them separate 'soul / spirit' for a reason..they are not the same thing which the passage I gave shows. The body of Man is simply a container for the Soul and Spirit. The other two, I will let you define them for you.

 

[JLB]

@JLB and @marks

Do you know what the symbolism of the "Sun and Moon represent in Revelation ch12" ???

Clothed with the sun speaks of the authority of The Son and His dominion.


The moon represents Satan, being the “lesser light” ; Lucifier


The moon under her feet is representative of those who are exercising dominion over Satan and the powers of darkness as they go forth with the gospel of the kingdom unto all the earth.

 

[David in NJ]

Clothed with the sun speaks of the authority of The Son and His dominion.


The moon represents Satan, being the “lesser light” ; Lucifier


The moon under her feet is representative of those who are exercising dominion over Satan and the powers of darkness as they go forth with the gospel of the kingdom unto all the earth.

100% on the first one

IMO - the moon represents something else

 

[JLB]

100% on the first one

IMO - the moon represents something else

The moon is the “light” that governs the darkness; night


Lucifer means “light bearer”.

 

[David in NJ]

Clothed with the sun speaks of the authority of The Son and His dominion.


The moon represents Satan, being the “lesser light” ; Lucifier


The moon under her feet is representative of those who are exercising dominion over Satan and the powers of darkness as they go forth with the gospel of the kingdom unto all the earth.

i said IMO on the "moon" when I actually know of Scripture that directly speaks of the "moon".

@marks, do you know where that Scripture is???

 

[David in NJ]

The moon is the “light” that governs the darkness; night


Lucifer means “light bearer”.

i like what you are saying but we have a more definitive word on this in Scripture

 

[David in NJ]

The moon is the “light” that governs the darkness; night


Lucifer means “light bearer”.

Genesis 37:9-11
Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”

So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?” And his brothers envied him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

Sun/Son = The Body of Christ is clothed in the Righteousness of CHRIST

Moon/Law = The Law is under our feet = Israel was led by the Law whereby the 7 feasts were DIRECTED by the Full Moon

The Law/Moon was our tutor to bring us to CHRIST/Son = brighter then the sun

The 12 Stars ar eth e12 Tribes of Israel = which we are Born into thru the New Birth = John chapters 1 thru 4