Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Scott Downey]

2 Peter 2:4
New International Version
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

From Copilot and I agree.
This verse from 2 Peter 2:4 (NIV) is a powerful example of divine justice and serves as a warning to readers about the consequences of rebellion. Here's a breakdown of its key elements:

Verse Analysis​

• "God did not spare angels when they sinned": This refers to a group of angels who rebelled against God, possibly alluding to the fall of Satan and his followers or to the events described in Genesis 6 involving "sons of God" and human women.
• "Sent them to hell": The Greek word used here is Tartarus, a term borrowed from Greek mythology, representing a deep abyss reserved for punishment. This is the only time Tartarus appears in the New Testament.
• "Chains of darkness": Symbolic of confinement and spiritual separation, emphasizing the severity of their punishment.
• "To be held for judgment": Indicates that their final judgment is still pending, reinforcing the idea of accountability and future reckoning.

Theological Implications​

• This verse underscores that even celestial beings are subject to God's authority.
• It sets the stage for the rest of the chapter, which warns against false teachers and immoral behavior.
• It reflects the broader biblical theme that sin—whether by angels or humans—has consequences.

Would you like to explore how this connects to Jude 1:6 or dive into interpretations from different theological traditions?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The below, again I agree.

Some people claim these are not angels, but people. How can that be refuted?

That claim—that 2 Peter 2:4 refers to people rather than angels—can be refuted through a combination of textual, linguistic, and contextual analysis. Here's how:

1. The Greek Word “Angels” (ἄγγελοι)​

• The Greek term used in 2 Peter 2:4 is angeloi, which always refers to supernatural beings (angels or messengers) in the New Testament unless clearly contextualized otherwise.
• There is no textual basis for interpreting angeloi here as human beings. The grammar and vocabulary are consistent with other references to fallen angels.

2. Parallel with Jude 6​

• Jude 6 says: “And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.”
• Jude and 2 Peter share strikingly similar language and themes. Jude explicitly refers to angels, not humans, reinforcing the supernatural context.

3. Contextual Flow in 2 Peter​

• Peter gives three examplesof divine judgment:
  1. Angels who sinned (v.4)
  2. The ancient world in Noah’s time (v.5)
  3. Sodom and Gomorrah (v.6)
• These are distinct groups: angels, antediluvian humans, and Sodomites. If the first group were also humans, the structure would be redundant and confusing.

4. Use of “Tartarus”​

• The verb tartarōsas (“cast them into Tartarus”) is used only here in the New Testament and refers to a mythological abyss reserved for divine beings, not humans.
• This term aligns with Greek cosmology where Tartarus was a prison for rebellious gods or titans—not mortals.

5. Early Church Interpretation​

• Early Christian writers like Origen, Tertullian, and Augustine interpreted this passage as referring to fallen angels, not humans.
• The idea that these were people is a modern reinterpretation not supported by historical exegesis.

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Peter 2 :: King James Version (KJV)

2 Peter 2 - For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

www.blueletterbible.org

Transliteration
angelos (Key)
Pronunciation
ang'-el-os

Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From aggello [probably derived from ἄγω (G71), cf ἀγέλη (G34)] (to bring tidings)
Greek Inflections of ἄγγελος [?]
mGNT
176x in 12 unique form(s) TR
185x in 12 unique form(s) LXX
236x in 11 unique form(s)
ἄγγελοί — 1x
ἄγγελοι — 22x
ἀγγέλοις — 9x
ἄγγελόν — 4x
ἄγγελον — 18x
ἄγγελός — 1x
ἄγγελος — 53x
Ἄγγελος — 2x
ἀγγέλου — 15x
ἀγγέλους — 20x
ἀγγέλῳ — 9x
ἀγγέλων — 31x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 1:74,12
KJV Translation Count — Total: 186x
The KJV translates Strong's G32 in the following manner: angel (179x), messenger (7x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
†ἄγγελος ággelos, ang'-el-os; from ἀγγέλλω aggéllō (probably derived from G71; compare G34) (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G32:
ἄγγελος, -ου, ὁ,
1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent: Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; Luke 9:52; Mark 1:2; James 2:25. [From Homer down.]
2. In the Scriptures, both of the Old Testament and of the New Testament, one of that host of heavenly spirits that, according alike to Jewish and Christian opinion, wait upon the monarch of the universe, and are sent by him to earth, now to execute his purposes (Matthew 4:6, 11; Matthew 28:2; Mark 1:13; Luke 16:22; Luke 22:43 [L brackets WH reject the passage]; Acts 7:35; Acts 12:23; Galatians 3:19, cf. Hebrews 1:14), now to make them known to men (Luke 1:11, 26; Luke 2:9ff; Acts 10:3; Acts 27:23; Matthew 1:20; Matthew 2:13; Matthew 28:5; John 20:12f); hence, the frequent expressions ἄ

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[WPM]

what do you mean exactly by "this"? Explain what you're talking about here. And, what has happened to you? Or have you always been this judgmental and I just didn't realize it? You can say a lot of things about me. I have plenty of flaws just like everyone does. But, you cannot say that I'm being dishonest in this discussion. That is absolutely false. Why would I be dishonest about discussing scripture and the spiritual realm? I have no reason to be. May God strike me down right now if I'm being dishonest about the spiritual realm. Could I be mistaken about it in some way? Sure, I could. But, am I purposely denying anything about the spiritual realm and being dishonest about it? Absolutely not and I don't appreciate your false accusation of dishonesty at all.

Total nonsense. I am not discarding anything. If anyone is discarding many passages and verses that they are being shown, that would be you. You are not bothering to respond to most of my arguments. Why is that? You try to say the onus is on me to prove my view, but somehow the onus isn't also on you to prove yours? That's ridiculous.

Since he embraced TS's teaching, he has changed. He has become so ruthless and accusatory.

We are simply comparing his views to others that do actually agree with him, and he doesn't like it. That is because they are apostate or secularly dismissive of the supernatural. But, he does not deny this. What he is doing is questioning our motives, and attitude to God and His Word.

 

[rwb]

I am no one's clone! I have been studying the Bible for myself for many years, and though I do appreciate learning from many who are far wised than myself, I have the final word of what I believe is truth from the Word of God. It seems especially when it comes to understanding the spiritual realm, some of you are lacking spiritual discernment. And I believe it stems from your denial of some or perhaps all of the Biblical doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace presented by way of the acronym T.U.L.I.P.

Being locked in the belief that mankind has freewill causes you to carry that view into the spirit realm. You believe angels of God also have freewill and that’s why you cannot let go of the mythological and imaginary doctrine that has been passed down through the ages by man of Old.

You allege that since God gave mankind freewill, it makes sense to you that God must have also given His angels freewill. You believe the angels of God who all were made ministering spirits sent to the heirs of salvation, but that some of them through freewill, became wicked and instead of ministering spirits to heirs of salvation they became corrupted by becoming human flesh & blood and produced offspring with beautiful human women, who are women in unbelief, called daughters of man.

Because you believe in freewill, you assume, because you cannot prove, that only some 1/3 of the angels of God having freewill disobeyed God and became wicked, evil spirits who roam the earth. Freewill thinking will not allow you to receive what is plainly written regarding angels of God.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 1:14 (KJV) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

With freewill firmly planted in your thinking, you reject what the verse actually says and assume only some of the angels of God were sent forth to minister to them who shall be heirs of salvation. Because you assume though Satan and his angels were created good, of their own freewill they became evil and corrupted themselves and man. Freewill thought keeps you from believing that God chose humans to be heirs of salvation and calls them “sons”, ignoring how God says man, not spirit beings were chosen by Him to be His heirs. Also ignoring Christ telling us a spirit does NOT have flesh & blood as He did when He resurrected physically. In addition to this you will not believe Scripture that tells us that angels do not marry, nor are they given in marriage.

Matthew 22:30 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Sons of God throughout the Bible defines man of faith, not angels of God as freewill thinking imagines.

When speaking to Job, God asks him where he was when He created the heavens and earth and all that is in them. Written in poetic dialog that is highly symbolic. God asks Job where he was when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.

Job 38:7 (KJV) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

You believe stars symbolize the the third part of the angels in heaven that Satan with his tail cast down to earth, and they became fallen angels of Satan. And that all the sons of God who shouted for joy at creation are angels of God., before they sinned against God.

The sons of God are humans, not spirits. These sons of God shouted for joy because the creation marked the beginning of time when the Covenant of redemption would begin, and the promise ordained in eternity before creation would finally be fulfilled to all who are found written in the Lambs book of life.

The sons of God were not physically present to literally see the creation, they were there according to promise, having their names written in the Lamb’s book of life from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Luke 10:20 (KJV) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

It is in this manner the sons of God (humans) shout for joy at seeing creation unfold, understanding the promise of salvation through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world had finaly come as the Savior of His people, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Israel of Old being spiritually depicted as a woman clothed with sun, the moon under her feet is a depicting Joseph’s dream where he is symbolically Christ as the head of the chosen nation that Jesus would be born from. The sun and moon as patriarch and matriarch of the twelve tribes of all the children of Israel.

TO BE CONTINUED

 

[rwb]

The stars are not symbols for angels of God, they symbolically represent the sons of God, Israel of Old as She was created to be the nation/people chosen to display the Light of God unto all the earth. The stars do not symbolize angels cast down out of heaven with the so-called fallen angel, Satan. They are sons of God cast down from they high position of having been appointed the messengers of the Light of God to the world.

Revelation 12:1-2 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:4 (KJV) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Genesis 37:9 (KJV) And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

The sons of God lost the high position which spiritually speaking is the dwelling place of God, when these human sons of God lusted after beautiful woman born to the sons of men (unbelievers) and intermingled the blood of the chosen people with the blood of wickedness. As a result of their wickedness the whole earth became corrupted, so God sent the flood to wipe out every breathing creature upon the whole face of the earth. Only one righteous man, Noah, with his three sons and their wives, along with his wife were left on earth as sons of God, saved by the ark. If the son’s of God had been fallen angels of God, they too should have perished in the flood, but they did not because it was living breathing humans, not spirit beings masquerading as humans that perished in the flood.

Genesis 6:2 (KJV) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

The humans that lived on the earth during the days of Noah were appointed by God to be bearers of God’s light and life in the world, teaching mankind their need to call upon the name of the Lord. We know this is true from the time of A&E son, Seth.

Genesis 4:26 (KJV) And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

These sons of God from the time of Seth and through his son Enos had learned to be righteous before the Lord, no doubt in the same way A&E’s son Abel had shown himself to be righteous before God. But by the time we get to the days of Noah, all of mankind had become corrupted through sin, with the exception of righteous Noah. The sons of God began to lust after the things of this world, beautiful women who were not of faith, most likely because they came from the line of Cain whom God had cast out away from those of the high place (heavenly realm)the sons of God had been appointed to be.

Through lust of the flesh, like that of Eve in the garden of Eden, the sons of God fell from their original estate as ‘messengers’ of God, therefore God did not spare them, but cast them, these reprobate sons of God down to the lowest hell in chains under darkness to be reserved for judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 (KJV) For if God spared not the angels [messengers of God] that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 6 (KJV) And the angels [messengers of God] which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The whole chapter 2 of 2 Peter and Jude also are written to be a warning to the churches of what shall be in this last days since Christ came in the Kingdom of God. There shall be “false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” God uses the example of what came to pass in the days of Noah, and also judgment when God turned “the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.”

This is not telling us that angels of God who became sons of man are being held for judgment day! We are being warned that just as these people of old who were chosen of God to be the bearers of God’s light to the world had not been spared, neither shall we be spared if we claim to be righteous before God and man, thereby claiming to belong to the chosen elect of God, but are in fact found to be of our father, the Devil, through our love of this world and everything in it, neither shall He spare us.

If you wish to see clearly what God has spoken to us through His written Word, you need to first get rid of the belief that the will of mankind and is free to choose God for everlasting life of their own free will, and that God’s ministering spirits (angels) may also of their own free will choose to serve God or Satan.

 

[WPM]

you cannot let go of the mythological and imaginary doctrine that has been passed down through the ages by man of Old.

The doctrine you cling to does not come from the Word of God. Your doctrine is built upon mythology and tradition of man of old who lacked knowledge…

Instead of increasing in biblical knowledge through the Spirit of Christ in you, you willfully choose to follow tradition and mythology of men of Old who could not know the things the Spirit of Christ in us would teach us.

What I cannot accept is doctrine perpetuated through mythology rather than biblical truth.

I believe your assumptions are based upon mythology that has been passed down from men of Old through the ages.

My testimony will be nonsense to those who refuse to receive the love of the Truth. Like I said, the traditional belief is hard to break. Only the Spirit of God can show you as He did with me.

If you don't know from the Word of God, I doubt you would learn from me.

We can lead to water, but have no power to make anyone drink!

I stated this in a way that even a small child could understand.

It would not matter how many passages and verses you are shown, you will continue to discard .

I suspected this is why you and probably WPM also cannot be honest when discussing the spiritual realm.

It seems especially when it comes to understanding the spiritual realm, some of you are lacking spiritual discernment.

You are becoming like a broken record with your belittling taunts and slights. Get off your high chair before you fall off.

 

[WPM]

I am no one's clone! I have been studying the Bible for myself for many years, and though I do appreciate learning from many who are far wised than myself, I have the final word of what I believe is truth from the Word of God. It seems especially when it comes to understanding the spiritual realm, some of you are lacking spiritual discernment. And I believe it stems from your denial of some or perhaps all of the Biblical doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace presented by way of the acronym T.U.L.I.P.

Being locked in the belief that mankind has freewill causes you to carry that view into the spirit realm. You believe angels of God also have freewill and that’s why you cannot let go of the mythological and imaginary doctrine that has been passed down through the ages by man of Old.

You allege that since God gave mankind freewill, it makes sense to you that God must have also given His angels freewill. You believe the angels of God who all were made ministering spirits sent to the heirs of salvation, but that some of them through freewill, became wicked and instead of ministering spirits to heirs of salvation they became corrupted by becoming human flesh & blood and produced offspring with beautiful human women, who are women in unbelief, called daughters of man.

Because you believe in freewill, you assume, because you cannot prove, that only some 1/3 of the angels of God having freewill disobeyed God and became wicked, evil spirits who roam the earth. Freewill thinking will not allow you to receive what is plainly written regarding angels of God.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 1:14 (KJV) Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

With freewill firmly planted in your thinking, you reject what the verse actually says and assume only some of the angels of God were sent forth to minister to them who shall be heirs of salvation. Because you assume though Satan and his angels were created good, of their own freewill they became evil and corrupted themselves and man. Freewill thought keeps you from believing that God chose humans to be heirs of salvation and calls them “sons”, ignoring how God says man, not spirit beings were chosen by Him to be His heirs. Also ignoring Christ telling us a spirit does NOT have flesh & blood as He did when He resurrected physically. In addition to this you will not believe Scripture that tells us that angels do not marry, nor are they given in marriage.

Matthew 22:30 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Sons of God throughout the Bible defines man of faith, not angels of God as freewill thinking imagines.

When speaking to Job, God asks him where he was when He created the heavens and earth and all that is in them. Written in poetic dialog that is highly symbolic. God asks Job where he was when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.

Job 38:7 (KJV) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

You believe stars symbolize the the third part of the angels in heaven that Satan with his tail cast down to earth, and they became fallen angels of Satan. And that all the sons of God who shouted for joy at creation are angels of God., before they sinned against God.

The sons of God are humans, not spirits. These sons of God shouted for joy because the creation marked the beginning of time when the Covenant of redemption would begin, and the promise ordained in eternity before creation would finally be fulfilled to all who are found written in the Lambs book of life.

The sons of God were not physically present to literally see the creation, they were there according to promise, having their names written in the Lamb’s book of life from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Luke 10:20 (KJV) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

It is in this manner the sons of God (humans) shout for joy at seeing creation unfold, understanding the promise of salvation through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world had finaly come as the Savior of His people, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Israel of Old being spiritually depicted as a woman clothed with sun, the moon under her feet is a depicting Joseph’s dream where he is symbolically Christ as the head of the chosen nation that Jesus would be born from. The sun and moon as patriarch and matriarch of the twelve tribes of all the children of Israel.

TO BE CONTINUED

You are talking on behalf of no one else apart from your mentor TS and yourself. You know I hold to the doctrines of grace. List all the leading Calvinists since the Reformation that promoted the nonsense you 2 espouse? I will not hold my breath.

Readers: take note of my request.

 

[Muna]

Well, thats stamina I just don't have @WPM I can't believe you guys are still going on this
(Just checking in on you from time to time)

 

[rwb]

You are becoming like a broken record with your belittling taunts and slights. Get off your high chair before you fall off.

Paul, I'm very encouraged that I struck a raw nerve with you. I only pray the results will be much good fruit.

Sincerely, rwb

 

[rwb]

You are talking on behalf on no one else apart from your mentor TS and yourself. You know I hold to the doctrines of grace. List all the leading Calvinists since the Reformation that promoted the nonsense you 2 espouse? I will not hold my breath.

Readers: take note of my request.

Are you saying that you don't believe in the doctrine of free will of man and angels since the fall? Am I wrong about that particular doctrine of grace clouding your understanding of the spirit realm?

 

[WPM]

Paul, I'm very encouraged that I struck a raw nerve with you. I only pray the results will be much good fruit.

Sincerely, rwb

If you are encouraged by offending people with belittling rhetoric I feel sorry for you. Maybe this was something you concealed from most of us.

Pride comes before a fall.

 

[WPM]

Are you saying that you don't believe in the doctrine of free will of man and angels since the fall? Am I wrong about that particular doctrine of grace clouding your understanding of the spirit realm?

List all the leading Calvinists since the Reformation that promoted the nonsense you 2 espouse? I will not hold my breath.

Readers: take note of my request.

 

[rwb]

List all the leading Calvinists since the Reformation that promoted the nonsense you 2 espouse? I will not hold my breath.

Readers: take note of my request.

Are you saying that you don't believe in the doctrine of free will of man and angels since the fall? Am I wrong about that particular doctrine of grace clouding your understanding of the spirit realm?

What Calvinist since the Reformation promotes the doctrine of free will? You apparently do! I notice you haven't given any rebuttal for my lengthy reply.

 

[WPM]

What Calvinist since the Reformation promotes the doctrine of free will? You apparently do! I notice you haven't given any rebuttal for my lengthy reply.

No, that Satan is not a real demonic fallen angel?

 

[rwb]

No, that Satan is not a real demonic fallen angel?

I don't know, and I don't care, because that's not the topic. That's you attempting to deflect because you appear reluctant to answer why your doctrine built on mythology and tradition passed down from men of old throughout the ages must force the unbiblical doctrine of freewill on both man and angels of God after the fall.

I'll ask again, Are you saying that you don't believe in the doctrine of free will of man and angels since the fall? Am I wrong about that particular doctrine of grace clouding your understanding of the spirit realm?

 

[WPM]

I don't know, and I don't care, because that's not the topic. That's you attempting to deflect because you appear reluctant to answer why your doctrine built on mythology and tradition passed down from men of old throughout the ages must force the unbiblical doctrine of freewill on both man and angels of God after the fall.

I'll ask again, Are you saying that you don't believe in the doctrine of free will of man and angels since the fall? Am I wrong about that particular doctrine of grace clouding your understanding of the spirit realm?

It is the topic BTW. Read the Op. Look at the error we are refuting.

Man and angels had a free will to sin. Yes! Absolutely. That is why they did. Hello! But fallen man does not have a free will to come to God. That is where you are confused.

Why can you not present any Reformed writer to support your error? I wonder why?

 

[rwb]

It is the topic BTW. Read the Op. Look at the error we are refuting.

Man and angels had a free will to sin. Yes! Absolutely. That is why they did. Hello! But fallen man does not have a free will to come to God. That is where you are confused.

Why can you not present any Reformed writer to support your error? I wonder why?

I'm glad to see we are like minded as far as man's inability to come to God of his own free will after the fall. However, you haven't proven that angels of God are autonomous spirits. How can they be? God tells us His angels are "ALL ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation". For an angel of God to have autonomy, and choose to become evil spirits, would be to usurp the will of God.

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

The only reason you continue to argue for angels having free will is because you believe every time angelos is translated "angel" in Scripture it is a spirit of God. This ignores the FACT that angelos often translated angel is a spirit being, when in FACT this word means messenger and the context of each verse helps to determine whether angelos is a spirit being or a human being, both messengers of God.

Verses that translate angelos as angels of the dragon, or Satan an angel of light are not spirit angels of God, but "messengers" of evil.

ἄγγελος ángelos, ang'-el-os - a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.

The symbolic war in heaven symbolically shows when the power of Satan, and his ministers would now be defeated because the "woman brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." When Christ was born Satan became a defeated adversary, the promised Messiah had come bringing with Him salvation to man.

Revelation 12:7 (KJV) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [messengers]

Satan uses mankind to accomplish his evil purposes. He enters into the hearts and minds of men in the churches masquerading as messenger (man) of light, but in reality, he and his ministers (professed Christians, in the body of Christ) while pretending to be ministers (man) of righteousness, work as "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ."

2 Corinthians 11:13 (KJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:14 (KJV) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel [messenger] of light.
2 Corinthians 11:15 (KJV) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I've clearly shown you how I have come to know Satan/Devils/demons have never been angels of God sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. My source is the written Word of God, called the BIBLE. As I've said now time and again man of old and even now continue to perpetuate (preserve; continue indefinitely) a doctrine built upon mythology, and tradition that has been passed down since man realized there needed to be an answer for the problem of sin and death. It should be easy for you to prove from the source I've used, the BIBLE, that what I have reasoned is not sound nor truth.

 

[rwb]

Satan is NOT a Fallen Angel ~ The Bible Speaks to You

Who am I to disagree with Billy Graham? Not to mention so many Christians, who believe that Satan was once an angel. Oh well, here goes. While I deeply appreciate and revere Reverend Graham's or anyone's, commitment to Christ and all they have done to bring the message of salvation to the world...

thebiblespeakstoyou.com

Who am I to disagree with Billy Graham? Not to mention so many Christians, who believe that Satan was once an angel.

Oh well, here goes.

While I deeply appreciate and revere Reverend Graham’s or anyone’s, commitment to Christ and all they have done to bring the message of salvation to the world, I cannot join hands with them on this teaching that the devil was originally an angel in heaven.

The Scriptural texts used to support this theory are taken out of context and twisted to say things that are not accurate. And other sources, ancient and modern, are used as authority for things not found in the Bible.

But in this discussion, I’ll refer only to things in Scripture.

Let’s look at one of the most often quoted Bible verses on this subject.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:”
Isaiah 14:12, 13 KJV

Everyone I have ever heard expostulate on Satan, including Billy Graham, uses this verse to “prove” he was originally an angel who has fallen from heaven. But if you read the whole chapter these two verses are part of, you get a very different picture of what’s being discussed.

If you haven’t read all of Isaiah chapter 14 recently, I suggest you do that sooner than later.

At first glance, you can see why many people associate this passage with Satan. There’s all kind of hell imagery. Fallen from heaven. The grave. Worms. Death. Wicked kings. Brought down to hell. The sides of the pit.

None of these verses is referring to Satan or an angel. Check out verse 4: “…thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!”

This passage is referring to the king of Babylon, a man not an angel, nor an angel who has fallen from heaven and become Satan.

The fact that this passage refers to a man is re-emphasized in verse 16: “They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;”

Notice those words, “Is this the man…” If this was referring to Satan, who had previously been an angel, the passage would have to read, “Is this the angel…”

What does Ezekiel have to say?​

Another passage heavily quoted to bolster up this man-made doctrine that Satan is a fallen angel is in Chapter 28 of Ezekiel. You’ll need to read the whole chapter to see the complete picture. In fact, you really need to read Chapters 25 – 32 to get the overview of what God is commanding Ezekiel to say to various rulers and countries who have defied Him and treated the Children of Israel with contempt.

In Chapter 25, God rails against the Ammonites, the land of Moab and Seir, the Edomites and Philistines. Chapters 26 – 28 focus on Tyre (Tryus) and her rulers. The last half of Chapter 28 is a pronouncement against Sidon (Zidon). Chapters 30 – 32 are God’s words against Egypt and its Pharaoh.

I mention all these chapters in Ezekiel because many of them contain imagery and metaphors to illustrate certain points. For example, Pharaoh is called a “great dragon that lies in the midst of his streams, that says, ‘My Nile is my own; I made it for myself.’” (Ez 29:3)

And in verse 4, God tells Pharaoh, “I will put hooks in your jaws, and make the fish of your streams stick to your scales; and I will draw you up out of the midst of your streams, with all the fish of your streams that stick to your scales.”

For all those folks who insist we have to take the Bible literally, this passage is going to present a few problems. Pharaoh was not literally a dragon in the Nile. He did not literally have scales. God was not literally going to put hooks in his jaw. These are metaphors to illustrate that God will deal decisively with Pharaoh.

There are many more metaphors and imagery in the other chapters mentioned above, which you can discover for yourself.

But let’s take a look specifically at Chapter 28. Here’s another hotbed of fallen-angel imagery that gets falsely attributed to Satan.

The chapter starts out with God telling Ezekiel to rebuke the ruler in Tyre (Tyrus-KJV):

Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD:
“Because your heart is proud, and you have said, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,’
yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god—”
Ezekiel 28:1

Here again, notice the words, “yet you are but a man, and no god.” Or angel, I might add.

But wait, there’s more!

The rant against the king of Tyre continues using imagery to describe how wonderful the king of Tyre had been. Read the whole chapter for yourself. Here are bits of it:

• You were in Eden, the garden of God; (v. 13)
• You were an anointed guardian cherub. (v. 14)
• You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. (v. 15)
• Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; (v. 17)

If you read these verses out of context and by themselves and then declare with wonder that they refer to Satan’s previous status as a cherub or angel in heaven, many will agree with you.

But these verses are hurled at the king of Tyre. He was not literally a cherub in Eden anymore than Pharaoh was a dragon in the Nile with scales.

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The final proof that this does not refer to Satan or a fallen angel but a man is when God says to him, “you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever.” (v. 19 ESV)

It doesn’t say, “You will come to a dreadful end, sometime in the future,” but “You have [already] come to an end and shall be no more forever.” If this were referring to Satan, it would mean he is already destroyed and doesn’t exist anymore. But those who believe in Satan are convinced he is still alive and about his business.

Sorry, but you can’t have it both ways.

It looks to me that if you insist on taking the Bible literally, you will have to admit that the devil is a fallen man, either the king of Tyre or Babylon, or both. I’m not sure how that works.

What does Jesus say about the devil?​

To me, the most convincing evidence in Scripture that Satan is not a fallen angel comes from Jesus himself. He said of the devil,

“He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
John 8:44 ESV

He was a murderer from the beginning. He is a liar. There is no truth in him. These are strong words. Jesus makes it clear that the devil was not an angel in the beginning, but always a murderer with no truth in him. Everything Satan says is a lie. If he told the truth, he would self-destruct.

Satan’s biggest lie​

And one of the biggest lies Satan has told for centuries is that he used to be angel. That’s exactly what he wants you to think. And he has fooled the multitudes with this lie. But Paul exposes this as the lie it is when he warns the church in Corinth, “even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” (II Corinthians 11:14 ESV)

It’s only a disguise, one of many. Don’t. Be. Fooled. By. This. Lie.

There are other passages in the Bible that people take out of context to justify their belief that the devil is a fallen angel. For example, when the Seventy returned to Jesus to report the healings that resulted because of preaching the Gospel, he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” (Luke 10:18 ESV)

“Aha! See there,” say they. “That’s proof that Satan was a fallen angel.” But is it really? Jesus is once again using a metaphor to describe Satan’s demise. And there is a problem with the chronology. If that is when Satan fell from heaven as an angel, what happened to the elaborately concocted backstory that his fall happened before Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden?

And in case you didn’t notice, Jesus doesn’t say he saw an angel fall from heaven. It was Satan.

Revelation 12​

Revelation 12 is also frequently cited as a case for Satan being a fallen angel. But the time problem also shows up there. Yes, the great Red Dragon, or Satan, is cast out of heaven by Michael, the archangel. But the book of Revelation is a prophecy of what is to come, not a description of what has already taken place. Revelation refers to something very different, the final victory over evil, not the beginning of creation. In this passage, Satan is not an angel in heaven. He is the original serpent from Eden now turned dragon.

When you take bits and pieces of the Bible and rearrange them to make a different picture of what’s going on, you can make the Bible say just about whatever you want. In fact, the problem is that we often come to the Bible with preconceived notions and then try to find bits and pieces to “prove” our point. But that just won’t work in the long run. It’s like trying to hold water in a bucket with holes in it.

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