David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Christ sits on His Father's throne = Rev 3:21
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?
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To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You're a theologian? Three Gods? Why can't you find that comment in the Bible??? It ain't there! You should have stayed home and read your Bible instead of travelling to 5 countries looking for unBiblical opinions.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Out of respect to @Grailhunter, he is looking at the THREE who are Ecad Elohim from Genesis.
However, the THREE = Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness = are ONE = ECHAD Elohim
NO ONE is able to comprehend this so we MUST allow the Scripture to define for us Who the "Us/Our/Our" are.
Genesis , Exodus Gospel , Apostles and Revelation give us the exact representation of Elohim
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Well, i will never support any "doctrine of demons" and we have God's Word to examine and expose any falsehood.
Many on here have not read all of scripture, nor prayed for understanding, nor submitted unto Proverbs 30:5-6
We all start out the same = lost in sin and ignorant of varying degrees of the Holy Scriptures = it takes time, discipline and submission unto the Holy Spirit of Truth and the Word.
i respect another brother/sister in Christ = even the ones who slander and backbite which is very unfortunate
Everyday God calls us to pray for one another, forgiving each other as Christ forgives us.
Do you know that without the THREE(Us/Our/Our) from Genesis, no one could be SAVED!!!
JESUS spelled this out for us and the Apostle John had the greatest insight to the THREE from Genesis = John 1:1
Yep, but many are snared by doctrines of demons. I don't respect that in any way.
God calls Christians to pull people out of the Fire. Not buddy up to Satan's messengers leading people to Hell.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i'm with you on exposing 'doctrines of demons' which there is no shortage of these days
Do you see Grailhunter as "in the fire" ???
If so, how so???
the reason i ask is that there are many who think we cannot trust the written Word - are they in the fire also???
When we SEE God's LOVE and GRACE abounding thru the LORD Jesus Christ, we SEE the thief on the cross who received forgiveness of sins and Salvation purely by his confession of faith in Christ alone - Luke 23:39-43
Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”
Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
RLT63
Well-Known Member
So when Jesus prayed to the Father was he just talking to himself?
ProverbsInPink
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Jesus himself answered your question when he prayed at the tomb of Lazarus.
"Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me." John 11:41-42
Jesus was The Word made flesh. Fully God and purely ,sinless,human.
Jesus himself answered your question when he prayed at the tomb of Lazarus.
"Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me." John 11:41-42
Brakelite
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I don't think Jehovah Witnesses are in a position to criticize the KJV considering their leaders butchering of the Greek texts in order to justify their theological biases . John 1:1 and Zechariah 12:10 are classic examples.
Criticism of the KJV on the basis of archaic language is petty and fails to justify your own upholding of a translation wrought with controversial doctrinal bias that the original texts never had. Colossians 1:15-17 is another example.
I'm not suggesting the KJV isn't faultless, but stauros, really? Nor am I suggesting the KJV specifically supports the creedal versions of the trinity. The creeds go beyond what the KJV reaches, making assumptions that are not in Scripture. That's not the fault of the KJV Bible. Is the fault of those reading into it their own bias. JWs go a step further. They actually wrote into the Bible their own bias.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
That's quite an admission from an SDA. Unfortunately, most translations are guilty of this. There’s now more than enough solid exegesis demonstrating the Trinitarian bias in many passages, which, for someone who doesn’t accept the Trinity, is actually rather reassuring. Truth can still be found!
JW's TWIST nearly every verse in the Bible to change what God said!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I have explained our rendering of John 1:1 many times from the Greek to English showing that the bias is from the KJV, and most English translations that ignore the definite article......not the NWT.
Read from Greek to English as it was written....it says...
“In the beginning, was the Word (ho logos) and the Word (ho logos) was with God (ho theos, Yahweh) and the Word (ho logos) was god (theos)....(“divine” or “God-like”) Look up the word “theos”. It doesn’t just mean “God” with a capital “G”.
There are many errors in the KJV but the “KJV only” crowd chooses to ignore them.
So many Scriptures where the definite article in Greek is represented with a dash, ignoring it altogether, but it was the only way in Greek to identify Yahweh.
John 1:18 is another example of poor translation, in the KJV it reads...
“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
Seems innocuous enough until you realise that here is no “son” in that verse. In Greek it says “monogenes theos”...which correctly translated means “only begotten god”...Can Jesus rightly be called “theos”? “Monogenes” is Greek for an only child. Can there be an “only begotten god”? Correctly understood, the answer is, yes.
Jesus can rightly be called “a god” because the judges in Israel were called “gods” (theos) by Yahweh himself because they represented him and acted under his authority. (John 10:21-36) See what Jesus called himself....
Satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:4.
One Bible commentator I looked up on Google, had this to say....
“John 1:18
is one of the few verses in the New Testament which contains both (1) an all-important theological statement about Christ and (2) a puzzling Greek textual problem. In addition, (3) the Greek wording adopted by most modern version is difficult to translate.One theologically significant verse, three separate challenges for the Bible interpreter.”
So, as you can see, not so easy to translate at all.....without theological bias getting in the way....seen in some translations that go way beyond what was originally written.
The NIV for example....
“No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.”
Trinitarian bias at its worst.
As for Zach 12:10?
KJV reads....
“And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”
You can see right away that the grammar is incorrect....the subject goes from “me” to “him”....it’s all over the place. Phrasing is very different in some languages....difficult to translate exactly as the receiver understood it.
So, in order to avoid what seems to be a piercing of God himself, (somewhat repugnant to a Jewish mind, who would not even say God’s name out loud lest they break the second Commandment)....some of the later Hebrew manuscripts read “look upon him whom they have pierced”, rather than “look upon me whom they have pierced”.
As far as literal piercing is concerned, this occurred as we know in the case of Christ Jesus, so at John 19:37 where the prophecy of Zechariah 12:10 is quoted and applied to Jesus, in the KJV it reads....
“And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.”
So to be consistent, how should the verse be rendered in English? Are both correct when they contradict?
To appreciate the Jewish understanding of their own language, we have to recognize that Jesus was a Jew, speaking to fellow Jews. His apostles were all Jewish, so no English speakers there. The prophesy was about Jesus Christ whom John called “theos”....but never once was Christ called “ho theos” which is how the Greeks spoke of the then, nameless God of the Jews.
“Adonai” (Lord”) was not his name...it was a title shared with his son...a title of respect, but not one that was uncommon in Bible times.
Sarah called Abraham “lord” (1 Peter 3:6) not because he was her god, but out of respect for her godly husband. Servants called their masters “lord”. It is someone who has authority over you.
The apostles called Jesus “Lord” but never Yahweh. (1 Cor 8:5-6)
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
#1 - the judges of Israel were not begotten by GodI have explained our rendering of John 1:1 many times from the Greek to English showing that the bias is from the KJV, and most English translations that ignore the definite article......not the NWT.
Read from Greek to English as it was written....it says...
“In the beginning, was the Word (ho logos) and the Word (ho logos) was with God (ho theos, Yahweh) and the Word (ho logos) was god (theos)....(“divine” or “God-like”) Look up the word “theos”. It doesn’t just mean “God” with a capital “G”.
There are many errors in the KJV but the “KJV only” crowd chooses to ignore them.
So many Scriptures where the definite article in Greek is represented with a dash, ignoring it altogether, but it was the only way in Greek to identify Yahweh.
John 1:18 is another example of poor translation, in the KJV it reads...
“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
Seems innocuous enough until you realise that here is no “son” in that verse. In Greek it says “monogenes theos”...which correctly translated means “only begotten god”...Can Jesus rightly be called “theos”? “Monogenes” is Greek for an only child. Can there be an “only begotten god”? Correctly understood, the answer is, yes.
Jesus can rightly be called “a god” because the judges in Israel were called “gods” (theos) by Yahweh himself because they represented him and acted under his authority. (John 10:21-36) See what Jesus called himself....
Satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:4.
One Bible commentator I looked up on Google, had this to say....
“John 1:18
One theologically significant verse, three separate challenges for the Bible interpreter.”
So, as you can see, not so easy to translate at all.....without theological bias getting in the way....seen in some translations that go way beyond what was originally written.
The NIV for example....
“No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.”
Trinitarian bias at its worst.
As for Zach 12:10?
KJV reads....
“And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”
You can see right away that the grammar is incorrect....the subject goes from “me” to “him”....it’s all over the place. Phrasing is very different in some languages....difficult to translate exactly as the receiver understood it.
So, in order to avoid what seems to be a piercing of God himself, (somewhat repugnant to a Jewish mind, who would not even say God’s name out loud lest they break the second Commandment)....some of the later Hebrew manuscripts read “look upon him whom they have pierced”, rather than “look upon me whom they have pierced”.
As far as literal piercing is concerned, this occurred as we know in the case of Christ Jesus, so at John 19:37 where the prophecy of Zechariah 12:10 is quoted and applied to Jesus, in the KJV it reads....
“And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.”
So to be consistent, how should the verse be rendered in English? Are both correct when they contradict?
To appreciate the Jewish understanding of their own language, we have to recognize that Jesus was a Jew, speaking to fellow Jews. His apostles were all Jewish, so no English speakers there. The prophesy was about Jesus Christ whom John called “theos”....but never once was Christ called “ho theos” which is how the Greeks spoke of the then, nameless God of the Jews.
“Adonai” (Lord”) was not his name...it was a title shared with his son...a title of respect, but not one that was uncommon in Bible times.
Sarah called Abraham “lord” (1 Peter 3:6) not because he was her god, but out of respect for her godly husband. Servants called their masters “lord”. It is someone who has authority over you.
The apostles called Jesus “Lord” but never Yahweh. (1 Cor 8:5-6)
#2 - John 1:1 Logos Logos Logos = same as "Genesis 1:1-3 = THREE
#3 - Since only Christ was directly begotten by the FATHER, then Christ can only be of the FATHER and none else
#4 - Heb 10:5 - "a body You have prepared for ME" (inside Mary) = same as what the apostle John said in ch1
#5 - Count to 3 = LORD + JESUS + CHRIST
No, the gospel is the Father sent the Son, Jesus was praying to His Father, he was not crying to himself
Heb 5 :7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared
Not my will, but thine be done
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Even after Christ was crucified and was risen again and ascended unto His Father, it tells us
Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Even Jesus' doctrine was not his own
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Just like here
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine,
but the Father's which sent me.
The Father taught him what to say
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he,
and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
He is the eternal life that was with the Father
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.(John 7:28)
His words were given to Him (Deut 18:18) which agrees in John 12:49 that Jesus would speak by commandment
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Again Jesus tells us His words were given to him (and we receive and believe exactly that)
John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them,
and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Forums are not about convincing the other member. Most people just fight for their ideas no matter what, they publicly stick to them even when they were completely shattered to pieces. Maybe, in private, they begin to be less certain of something, but this is hard to know.
So, forums are rather about conversation.
Regarding your claim, Jesus is the name given to the Logos after the incarnation. But as a person and being, the Logos of course existed before incarnation. That is the whole point of J1 and of the term (terminus technicus) Logos in theology.
Quoting you:
"Yes.
And clarity is further confused by the definitions shell game.
Why do we need a secret decoder ring to understand the Bible?
This is Freakin' nuts. (no wonder I don't trust the Bible)"
In Greek, the definite article does not distinguish a different "kind" or "grade" of deity, but is dependent on grammar and syntax. God can be both "theos" and "ho theos, tu theu, ton theon...", depending on the sentence.
You could just look at J 1:18 which you mentioned:
Θεὸν [no definite article] οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς Θεὸς [no definite article] ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
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