Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Spiritual Israelite]

Along with the ungodly every breathing creature upon the face of the earth and the fowls of the air, the known world would also perish. If the sons of God were fallen angels of God why did they not also perish with the flood?

LOL. Are you kidding me? How would spirit beings perish in a flood? Are you talking to a strawman here? Try talking to me. I don't claim that fallen angels are physical beings.

This is an indictment against you!

LOL.

It seems you have selective spiritual discernment.

And, of course, I could also say that about you since I have agreed with many of your posts related particularly to either supporting Amil or refuting Premil. When it comes to this topic, you are definitely very lacking in spiritual discernment. The way you interpret Genesis 1:3-5 as if it's talking about metaphorical light and darkness when it so clearly is talking about literal light and darkness is a great example of your lack of spiritual discernment as it relates to this topic.

You think there can be no spiritual discernment unless it agrees with your mythological doctrine of the spirit realm.

You are being very hypocritical here. You are making that same accusation against me, as if I must be lacking in spiritual discernment if I disagree with you on this. Despite your weak arguments and lack of biblical support for your view.

This is good advice, I hope you will consider taking your own good advice!

I always do. If I didn't, I wouldn't know of enough to give it. YOU are the one who claimed that I didn't believe the Word of God just because I disagreed with your INTERPRETATION of the Word of God. I have NEVER accused you of not believing the Word of God and never would. I know you believe all of it as you understand it. It just so happens that you misunderstand some of it.

Once more angels are messengers of God that can be spirit or human.

The definitions of the Greek word "angelos" is not what we're debating about. No one is saying it always means angels or always means humans in every case.

Devils/demons are messengers of Satan that can also be spirit or human.

Where do you get the idea that devils/demons can be human? Show me what scripture leads you to believe that. It's one thing to say that the word "angelos" can refer to God's angels or to humans, but where do you see any scripture which refers to humans as devils/demons?

If all the angels are ministering spirits sent to minister to heirs of salvation, it's because God has ordained it! But you believe that God gave His ministering spirits a free will to disobey God, not because you find this in the Bible, but because you have been brain washed (deceived) into believing myth/legend that came from men of Old and has been passed down throughout the ages.

Your false accusations just show how you have nothing to refute my belief. It's an act of desperation to accuse me of being brainwashed. That is evil and complete nonsense for you to claim that. I study scripture for myself. Unlike you, I fully accept what Genesis 1:31 indicates, which is that EVERYTHING God created was very good. And HE obviously created the beings we call Satan and demons. I'm not willing to contradict Genesis 1:31 like you are, so in order to not contradict that verse the beings we call Satan and demons had to be formerly very good before sinning and rebelling against God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The sons of God are those who are written in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the world. The morning stars the first stars of the morning and represent the crown of twelve stars (church of Old) adorning the woman (Israel of Old) who gave birth to the man child (Christ). Israel of Old chosen first by God to be bearers of His light unto all people. They are the first on earth to be messengers, or sons/children of God.

Look at how you twist the word of God to fit your beliefs by spiritualizing literal text, as TS does repeatedly. Read the text carefully.

Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The context of this passage is in relation to when God was creating the earth. This has nothing to do with the church of Old or Israel of Old. Why do you make things up? Are you that desperate to cling to your beliefs? This is saying that the morning stars and sons of God were there when God was creating the earth. This passage is referring to the time before God created man, so it can't possibly be referring to the church of Old or Israel of Old.

This is a spiritual picture depicted in poetic language of the celebration at the beginning of creation because the Covenant ordained from the foundation of the world through the slain Lamb has come to the earth and the Kingdom of God would begin to come to pass just as God promised it would.

Job 38:7 (YLT) In the singing together of stars of morning, And all sons of God shout for joy,

There is no indication in the text itself whatsoever that it is anything but literal. You do this same thing with Genesis 1:3-5. It's ridiculous. You talk about lacking in spiritual discernment. You lack the discernment to differentiate between literal and figurative text or between spiritual and physical text. You are twisting scripture repeatedly to keep your false belief afloat. This is what I expect from premils, not you.
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Revelation 12:1 (YLT) And a great sign was seen in the heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars,

Genesis 37:9-10 (YLT) And he dreameth yet another dream, and recounteth it to his brethren, and saith, `Lo, I have dreamed a dream again, and lo, the sun and the moon, and eleven stars, are bowing themselves to me.' And he recounteth unto his father, and unto his brethren; and his father pusheth against him, and saith to him, `What is this dream which thou hast dreamt? do we certainly come--I, and thy mother, and thy brethren--to bow ourselves to thee, to the earth?'

Just as the twelve stars represent the Old Covenant messengers through the twelve tribes called Israel of Old. So too the seven stars represent New Covenant messengers through the seven churches.

Revelation 1:20 (YLT) the secret of the seven stars that thou hast seen upon my right hand, and the seven golden lamp-stands: the seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamp-stands that thou hast seen are seven assemblies.

Luke 10:20 (YLT) but, in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice rather that your names were written in the heavens.'

Revelation 17:8 (YLT) `The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

As premils, and especially pre-tribs, often do, you are trying to relate unrelated scriptures. There is no indication in Job 38 whatsoever that the text is not meant to be taken literally. It literally refers to when God laid the foundations of the earth, so the context of the passage relates to that and has nothing to do with the church of Old or Israel of Old.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

False. And you also still misunderstood Satan.

Satan is not a created person or fallen angel, but rather the spirit of disobedience that operates in man.

@rwb You liked this post. Do you agree with this statement that TS made? Before you have said you believe that Satan is an evil spirit being. Have you changed your mind? Do you agree with TS that Satan is "the spirit of disobedience that operates in man", which means he is saying that Satan is not a separate spirit being, but is instead man's disobedient spirit? If not, why did you give a like to his post?

 

[rwb]

Where do you get the idea that devils/demons can be human? Show me what scripture leads you to believe that. It's one thing to say that the word "angelos" can refer to God's angels or to humans, but where do you see any scripture which refers to humans as devils/demons?

This is why I ask you to define spirits! Devils/demons/angels/Holy Spirit/God/Jesus are spirits that work within the spirit of man. Man doesn't become a spirit, rather the spirit in man becomes the nature of whatever spirit dwells in them. In unbelief the spirit in man becomes like the spirit of their father, the Devil. And when we are of faith the spirit in us becomes like the Spirit of Christ in us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

False. And you also still misunderstood Satan.

Satan is not a created person or fallen angel, but rather the spirit of disobedience that operates in man.

That would mean that "the spirit of disobedience that operates in man" appeared before God and talked to God about Job, which is obviously not the case. And that would mean that Satan was tempting Jesus in the wilderness? No. And that would mean the spirit of disobedience that operates in man will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10)? How is that different than disobedient people whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15)? Your understanding of Satan is completely ludicrous.

 

[rwb]

@rwb You liked this post. Do you agree with this statement that TS made? Before you have said you believe that Satan is an evil spirit being. Have you changed your mind? Do you agree with TS that Satan is "the spirit of disobedience that operates in man", which means he is saying that Satan is not a separate spirit being, but is instead man's disobedient spirit? If not, why did you give a like to his post?

This is a true statement! Satan, the evil spirit could not exist without working disobedience in the heart/mind (spirit) of fallen mankind. You still don't seem to understand what spirit is!


Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. πνεῦμα pneuma (pneûma)
Search for G4151 in KJVSL; in KJV; load in ESI.


πνεῦμα pneûma, pnyoo'-mah


from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:—ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

 

[rwb]

Look at how you twist the word of God to fit your beliefs by spiritualizing literal text, as TS does repeatedly. Read the text carefully.

I gave you biblical support for how I have come to understand Job 38. You give ZERO rebuttal and have nothing but baseless unsubstantiated OPINIONS and GUESSES!

 

[rwb]

As premils, and especially pre-tribs, often do, you are trying to relate unrelated scriptures.

More of your slanderous unchristian stabs, without showing what I've said is unbiblical. But I understand this, as I've said before when one cannot argue against the truth, they will usually resort to slander and accusations, attacking the messengers of Truth. It's so important for you and WPM to think you have truth that you will treat Christians in the vilest manner imaginable.

 

[rwb]

That would mean that "the spirit of disobedience that operates in man" appeared before God and talked to God about Job, which is obviously not the case. And that would mean that Satan was tempting Jesus in the wilderness? No. And that would mean the spirit of disobedience that operates in man will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10)? How is that different than disobedient people whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15)? Your understanding of Satan is completely ludicrous.

Blah, Blah, Blah!!! More opinion without biblical proof! It's really becoming embarrassing waiting to see how far some professed men of God will go! The only understanding of Satan that is completely ludicrous is that which comes from myth and legend passed down from men of Old who had very little understanding of the spiritual realm but knew there needed to be an answer for the problem with sin and death. Bingo - let's make Satan to be a fallen angel of God!

 

[TribulationSigns]

That would mean that "the spirit of disobedience that operates in man" appeared before God and talked to God about Job, which is obviously not the case.

You are right. It is not the case because not only you misunderstood what I wrote but also your understanding of Job 1:4-8 is fatal flawed!

What you believe is a MISCONCEPTION mainly based on a misunderstanding of Old Testament Scriptures (like this one) and of Revelation Chapter 12 referring to cast out "angels".

I do not support the nonsense that Satan was in HOLY heaven with God, was commuting from heaven to earth, nor that he ever had come into God's third heaven after being kicked out. Nothing that offends is in the heaven where God dwells. Therefore, the heaven in view here is the Kingdom of heaven on earth, where God's people dwell! Get that part right first! There is no sin in heaven, no hypocrisy, no liar, no evil in heaven, only praise, glory and worship.

Now the context of Scriptures is also very important, and the context of this passage is the gathering together of God's people for feasts, communion and offerings unto the Lord for sin.

Job 1:4-5

• "And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
• And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually."

The context is God's people on earth, their days of feasting and Job's faithful sacrifice and offering for sin. And on one of these days, Satan was allowed to come in among them so that Job could be tried because God wanted to paint a portrait for all of us to understand.

Job 1:6

• "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

This is probably one of the most misunderstood verses in church today. The sons of God in Scripture refer to believers (Genesis 6:1; John 1:12; Romans 8:14; 1 John 3:1) who are spiritual children/sons of the Father. NOT angels as you assumed! And most certainly not "fallen Angels."

Deu 14:1
(1) Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

The word translated children is the exact same word translated sons, illustrating God's people are the spiritual sons of God!

Thus by allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture we see these sons of God refers to human messengers who are God's spiritual children on earth, and it is they who come to present themselves before the Lord. Actually the language of "present themselves before the LORD" is also confirming the illustration of their coming for the purpose of sacrifice, offering and forgiveness of sin of the Lord's congregation. THIS "is" the representation of the Lord's Heaven on earth. It is not an illustration about some fantasy supernatural angels or of Satan as a Angel presenting themselves in Holy heaven in the presence of God. God forbids. God says Satan was a Liar from the beginning, and no liar can enter God's Holy Heaven. Period! Get that part right, bud! Moses couldn't even stand before the glory of Holy God on the mountaintop, much less the epitome of evil and the father of lies come to stand where God dwells in all His glory. Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture we see that the language of "presenting oneself" before God, or [yatsab], is the language of the congregation making obeisance, supplication, oblation and contrition. It doesn't refer to literally standing in Third Heaven physically facing God. You are dreaming!

Leviticus 14:11 "And the priest that maketh him clean shall present the man that is to be made clean, and those things, before the LORD, at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:" 1st Samuel 10:19 "And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands." Deuteronomy 31:14 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation." Jeremiah 36:7 "It may be they will present their supplication before the LORD, and will return every one from his evil way: for great is the anger and the fury that the LORD hath pronounced against this people."

That is HOW the HUMAN MESSENGERS of the Old Testament congregation presented themselves before the Lord, on earth. And guess what, it is NOT in a literal/physical heaven before God as you think!

In God's economy, Heaven is often signifying the Lord's congregation "because" it is the Kingdom of heaven on earth. You doubt. Okay, let test your understanding here:

Mat 11:10-12

• For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
• Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
• And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Did God talk about His Third Heaven that suffered violence? No, sorry, bud, it was not referring to literal heaven. Or when Michael and His messengers fought in heaven against Satan and his messengers, again, not angels literally fighting in God's holy third heaven. No, it is the congregation as the kingdom of heaven ON EARTH! Get it?!

Likewise, when it says Satan came among them, he is among the congregation. Selah! This often happens as you can just look at some of the people in God's congregation and the things that they are teaching? It's not hard to understand that Satan comes in as a wolf in sheep's clothing walking among them? Didn't the sons of God build a golden calf to worship after being delivered from Egypt, humm?? Was that not Satan among them, yes? Look... Satan works within man (Luke 22:3), and he comes among God's people and does his bidding in the body of man (John 13:27). This is mysterious or secretive only in the fact that so many professing believers cannot comprehend this most basic and fundamental truth! He comes preaching love, he comes preaching ecumenism, he comes preaching politics, he comes genealogy, He comes preaching lawlessness under the guise of grace and peace. He come preaching premillennialism and yes, preterism! He come preaching divorce and remarriage. He come preaching tithes. He come preaching free will. He come preaching "Your Best Life Now." The list is endless. Satan is revealed in the man of sin, or more to our vernacular, "the sinful man!" Ibn the spirit of his father, the Devil, he ALWAYS comes in among the sons of God ON EARTH to try and bring them down, but it is really a trial of faith. Like Job, we should fear none of these things that we may suffer, be it tribulation, persecution or hate. If we are faithful unto death, we shall receive a crown of life better than anything this sinful world has to offer.

(Continue to next post)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Continue from previous post)

God, being sovereign and and using all, including Satan, for His own good purposes in trial, allows Satan to take all that Job had to illustrate to us doctrine that is profitable for reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. Just as the church is tried by God's loosing of Satan, that the sons of God might be brought through the fire, and the wicked might be judged of the fire that comes down from heaven. The conversation between God and Satan in Job's day are for our learning, not a demonstration that the Spirit of Lies can tempt God to persecute Job.

Job 1:7

• "And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

When Satan said he's come from going to and fro in the earth and from walking up and down in it, it simply means he travels far and wide, much as a sojourner that had been traveling to and fro (back and forth) in the land/earth. And in his travels he came in among Job's group. Up and down just means one direction and the opposite direction, just as we would say today that someone walked North and South (up and down) in the land. It is only ILLUSTRATING what we journeyed far and wide.

Consider that this is precisely why God in His divine synergy and providence effectively asks Him if in his travels, had he come across anyone as righteous as His servant Job.

Job 1:8

• "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

God asked Satan, "in your travels, have you ever seen anyone so upright as My servant Job who fears God, and so shuns evil?" God knows Satan is the adversary SPIRIT of man, is hateful, corrupt, disgusting, and a liar from the beginning who could not possibly reside in heaven. Obviously this desperately wicked spirit is not traveling or commuting back and forth between third heaven and Earth "as a son of God" and presenting himself as a son before God. Oh please!!!!

The whole idea is untenable for so many reasons!! Not the least of which is that Heaven is for the heavenly where nothing that offends or that makes a liar can dwell. When the sons of God (the Lord's children of that day), ON EARTH, presented themselves before the Lord, the adversary came in among them by coming in man. Just the same as Judas, the son of perdition likewise came in among the Lord's congregation to betray Christ by having Satan enter into him, that he might do his bidding.

Luk 22:3
(3) Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

See...the sons of God and Satan coming in among them when they went to present themselves, was no new and spectacular event of a ultimate evil Spirit coming into a "perfect heaven" where no evil can exist, to physically commune with God. Rather it is the age old illustration that the thing that hath been, that which shall be--and that this same that is done, is that which shall be done, so that there is no new thing under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9) God used this episode to paint us a portrait of the many sides, shades and meanings about the sons of God, their faithfulness, unfaithfulness and ultimate reliance upon God alone for everything. Selah!

Satan has always been coming in among God's sons, as it is happening in our day as professing Christians begin walking according to the course of this world and the prince of the power of the air. It is because the same spirit that worked in the children of disobedience of God's Old Testament congregation is working among God's people today, who are to a certain degree unaware of the strong delusion that they are under. There you go!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Blah, Blah, Blah!!! More opinion without biblical proof! It's really becoming embarrassing waiting to see how far some professed men of God will go! The only understanding of Satan that is completely ludicrous is that which comes from myth and legend passed down from men of Old who had very little understanding of the spiritual realm but knew there needed to be an answer for the problem with sin and death. Bingo - let's make Satan to be a fallen angel of God!

Bingo, indeed! Great post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is why I ask you to define spirits!

Why do I need to do that? Are you a little child who needs everything spelled out to you?

Devils/demons/angels/Holy Spirit/God/Jesus are spirits that work within the spirit of man.

They are all separate spirit beings. Is there something hard to understand about that?

Man doesn't become a spirit, rather the spirit in man becomes the nature of whatever spirit dwells in them.

What does this even mean? Every human being has a body, soul and spirit. A human being's spirit is separate from spirit beings like angels and demons.

In unbelief the spirit in man becomes like the spirit of their father, the Devil. And when we are of faith the spirit in us becomes like the Spirit of Christ in us.

This is not what is being discussed. TS made the statement that Satan is the spirit of disobedience in man. He denies that Satan is a separate spirit being from man. Do you agree with that or not? If not, then why are you giving his posts a like? He is promoting the idea that Satan is not a literal spirit being separate from man.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Blah, Blah, Blah!!! More opinion without biblical proof!

You are an immature child just like TS and the pre-tribs on this forum. It's very sad to see.

It's really becoming embarrassing waiting to see how far some professed men of God will go!

I agree. I am embarrassed for you that you deny that everything God created was very good since you believe that Satan and demons were created to be evil.

The only understanding of Satan that is completely ludicrous is that which comes from myth and legend passed down from men of Old who had very little understanding of the spiritual realm but knew there needed to be an answer for the problem with sin and death. Bingo - let's make Satan to be a fallen angel of God!

LOL. Your arguments are very, very weak, and here you are spewing nothing but nonsense and thinking you're refuting my arguments. Pathetic.

What exactly is the problem you have with what I said in my post? You didn't even bother to indicate that. Do you deny that an evil spirit being named Satan talked to God about Job? Or that an evil spirit being named Satan tempted Jesus in the desert? Have you decided to agree with TS that no evil spirit being named Satan exists?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are right. It is not the case because not only you misunderstood what I wrote but also your understanding of Job 1:4-8 is fatal flawed!

What you believe is a MISCONCEPTION mainly based on a misunderstanding of Old Testament Scriptures (like this one) and of Revelation Chapter 12 referring to cast out "angels".

I do not support the nonsense that Satan was in HOLY heaven with God, was commuting from heaven to earth, nor that he ever had come into God's third heaven after being kicked out. Nothing that offends is in the heaven where God dwells. Therefore, the heaven in view here is the Kingdom of heaven on earth, where God's people dwell! Get that part right first! There is no sin in heaven, no hypocrisy, no liar, no evil in heaven, only praise, glory and worship.

Now the context of Scriptures is also very important, and the context of this passage is the gathering together of God's people for feasts, communion and offerings unto the Lord for sin.

Job 1:4-5

• "And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
• And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually."

The context is God's people on earth, their days of feasting and Job's faithful sacrifice and offering for sin. And on one of these days, Satan was allowed to come in among them so that Job could be tried because God wanted to paint a portrait for all of us to understand.

Job 1:6

• "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

This is probably one of the most misunderstood verses in church today. The sons of God in Scripture refer to believers (Genesis 6:1; John 1:12; Romans 8:14; 1 John 3:1) who are spiritual children/sons of the Father. NOT angels as you assumed! And most certainly not "fallen Angels."

Deu 14:1
(1) Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

The word translated children is the exact same word translated sons, illustrating God's people are the spiritual sons of God!

Thus by allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture we see these sons of God refers to human messengers who are God's spiritual children on earth, and it is they who come to present themselves before the Lord. Actually the language of "present themselves before the LORD" is also confirming the illustration of their coming for the purpose of sacrifice, offering and forgiveness of sin of the Lord's congregation. THIS "is" the representation of the Lord's Heaven on earth. It is not an illustration about some fantasy supernatural angels or of Satan as a Angel presenting themselves in Holy heaven in the presence of God. God forbids. God says Satan was a Liar from the beginning, and no liar can enter God's Holy Heaven. Period! Get that part right, bud! Moses couldn't even stand before the glory of Holy God on the mountaintop, much less the epitome of evil and the father of lies come to stand where God dwells in all His glory. Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture we see that the language of "presenting oneself" before God, or [yatsab], is the language of the congregation making obeisance, supplication, oblation and contrition. It doesn't refer to literally standing in Third Heaven physically facing God. You are dreaming!

Leviticus 14:11 "And the priest that maketh him clean shall present the man that is to be made clean, and those things, before the LORD, at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:" 1st Samuel 10:19 "And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands." Deuteronomy 31:14 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation." Jeremiah 36:7 "It may be they will present their supplication before the LORD, and will return every one from his evil way: for great is the anger and the fury that the LORD hath pronounced against this people."

That is HOW the HUMAN MESSENGERS of the Old Testament congregation presented themselves before the Lord, on earth. And guess what, it is NOT in a literal/physical heaven before God as you think!

In God's economy, Heaven is often signifying the Lord's congregation "because" it is the Kingdom of heaven on earth. You doubt. Okay, let test your understanding here:

Mat 11:10-12

• For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
• Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
• And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Did God talk about His Third Heaven that suffered violence? No, sorry, bud, it was not referring to literal heaven. Or when Michael and His messengers fought in heaven against Satan and his messengers, again, not angels literally fighting in God's holy third heaven. No, it is the congregation as the kingdom of heaven ON EARTH! Get it?!

Likewise, when it says Satan came among them, he is among the congregation. Selah! This often happens as you can just look at some of the people in God's congregation and the things that they are teaching? It's not hard to understand that Satan comes in as a wolf in sheep's clothing walking among them? Didn't the sons of God build a golden calf to worship after being delivered from Egypt, humm?? Was that not Satan among them, yes? Look... Satan works within man (Luke 22:3), and he comes among God's people and does his bidding in the body of man (John 13:27). This is mysterious or secretive only in the fact that so many professing believers cannot comprehend this most basic and fundamental truth! He comes preaching love, he comes preaching ecumenism, he comes preaching politics, he comes genealogy, He comes preaching lawlessness under the guise of grace and peace. He come preaching premillennialism and yes, preterism! He come preaching divorce and remarriage. He come preaching tithes. He come preaching free will. He come preaching "Your Best Life Now." The list is endless. Satan is revealed in the man of sin, or more to our vernacular, "the sinful man!" Ibn the spirit of his father, the Devil, he ALWAYS comes in among the sons of God ON EARTH to try and bring them down, but it is really a trial of faith. Like Job, we should fear none of these things that we may suffer, be it tribulation, persecution or hate. If we are faithful unto death, we shall receive a crown of life better than anything this sinful world has to offer.

(Continue to next post)

LOL! All this rambling in a futile effort to disprove the existence of God's angels and the existence of an evil spirit being who is separate from man that is called Satan or the devil. What a joke! And @rwb foolishly supports this nonsense while he doesn't even agree with you that there is no such thing as spirit beings called angels and an evil spirit being named Satan. Hilarious!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is a true statement! Satan, the evil spirit could not exist without working disobedience in the heart/mind (spirit) of fallen mankind. You still don't seem to understand what spirit is!


Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. πνεῦμα pneuma (pneûma)
Search for G4151 in KJVSL; in KJV; load in ESI.


πνεῦμα pneûma, pnyoo'-mah


from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:—ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Are you unable to answer questions directly? TS denies the existing of an evil spirit being who is separate from man that is named Satan and is called the devil. That is what I am refuting. Are you so lacking in reading comprehension that you can't even see that? Do you agree with him about that or not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I gave you biblical support for how I have come to understand Job 38. You give ZERO rebuttal and have nothing but baseless unsubstantiated OPINIONS and GUESSES!

LOL. You have resorted to lying like pre-tribs do. You should just become a pre-trib since you act just like them. I did give a rebuttal. The text SPECIFICALLY refers to the time when God was creating the earth, so that is the context of the passage. You are the one with ZERO rebuttal. You are completely lacking in self awareness. You can't ever give straightforward answers to straightforward questions. I try to ask you if you agree with TS that angels and demons don't exist and you won't even respond with a direct answer. I think maybe you have decided to agree with him that there is no such thing as angels and demons. But, I guess I'll never know because you won't tell me.

 

[rwb]

Why do I need to do that? Are you a little child who needs everything spelled out to you?


They are all separate spirit beings. Is there something hard to understand about that?


What does this even mean? Every human being has a body, soul and spirit. A human being's spirit is separate from spirit beings like angels and demons.


This is not what is being discussed. TS made the statement that Satan is the spirit of disobedience in man. He denies that Satan is a separate spirit being from man. Do you agree with that or not? If not, then why are you giving his posts a like? He is promoting the idea that Satan is not a literal spirit being separate from man.

You are an immature child just like TS and the pre-tribs on this forum. It's very sad to see.


I agree. I am embarrassed for you that you deny that everything God created was very good since you believe that Satan and demons were created to be evil.


LOL. Your arguments are very, very weak, and here you are spewing nothing but nonsense and thinking you're refuting my arguments. Pathetic.

What exactly is the problem you have with what I said in my post? You didn't even bother to indicate that. Do you deny that an evil spirit being named Satan talked to God about Job? Or that an evil spirit being named Satan tempted Jesus in the desert? Have you decided to agree with TS that no evil spirit being named Satan exists?

LOL! All this rambling in a futile effort to disprove the existence of God's angels and the existence of an evil spirit being who is separate from man that is called Satan or the devil. What a joke! And @rwb foolishly supports this nonsense while he doesn't even agree with you that there is no such thing as spirit beings called angels and an evil spirit being named Satan. Hilarious!

Are you unable to answer questions directly? TS denies the existing of an evil spirit being who is separate from man that is named Satan and is called the devil. That is what I am refuting. Are you so lacking in reading comprehension that you can't even see that? Do you agree with him about that or not?

I hit reply, but you've given not a single word worth replying to! You have nothing because your eyes are closed, and you would rather cling to myth and legend that keeps you from receiving truth! Like always you spout, and sputter without knowledge! All these replies and not a single verse to refute truth, and not a single verse to prove what you imagine by clinging to myth and legend from men of old that has been passed down from generation to generation!

 

[rwb]

LOL. You have resorted to lying like pre-tribs do. You should just become a pre-trib since you act just like them. I did give a rebuttal. The text SPECIFICALLY refers to the time when God was creating the earth, so that is the context of the passage. You are the one with ZERO rebuttal. You are completely lacking in self awareness.

Another NONE REPLY! Worthless gibberish, not worthy of response!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

(Continue from previous post)

God, being sovereign and and using all, including Satan, for His own good purposes in trial, allows Satan to take all that Job had to illustrate to us doctrine that is profitable for reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. Just as the church is tried by God's loosing of Satan, that the sons of God might be brought through the fire, and the wicked might be judged of the fire that comes down from heaven. The conversation between God and Satan in Job's day are for our learning, not a demonstration that the Spirit of Lies can tempt God to persecute Job.

Job 1:7

• "And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

When Satan said he's come from going to and fro in the earth and from walking up and down in it, it simply means he travels far and wide, much as a sojourner that had been traveling to and fro (back and forth) in the land/earth. And in his travels he came in among Job's group. Up and down just means one direction and the opposite direction, just as we would say today that someone walked North and South (up and down) in the land. It is only ILLUSTRATING what we journeyed far and wide.

Consider that this is precisely why God in His divine synergy and providence effectively asks Him if in his travels, had he come across anyone as righteous as His servant Job.

Job 1:8

• "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

God asked Satan, "in your travels, have you ever seen anyone so upright as My servant Job who fears God, and so shuns evil?" God knows Satan is the adversary SPIRIT of man, is hateful, corrupt, disgusting, and a liar from the beginning who could not possibly reside in heaven. Obviously this desperately wicked spirit is not traveling or commuting back and forth between third heaven and Earth "as a son of God" and presenting himself as a son before God. Oh please!!!!

The whole idea is untenable for so many reasons!! Not the least of which is that Heaven is for the heavenly where nothing that offends or that makes a liar can dwell. When the sons of God (the Lord's children of that day), ON EARTH, presented themselves before the Lord, the adversary came in among them by coming in man. Just the same as Judas, the son of perdition likewise came in among the Lord's congregation to betray Christ by having Satan enter into him, that he might do his bidding.

You deny that Satan is an evil spirit being and you claim Satan is the spirit of disobedience in man. Do you not believe that Judas already had a spirit of disobedience in him before Satan entered into him? Do you think he had a spirit of obedience in him before Satan entered into him? What exactly is your understanding of Satan as it relates to Judas?

Explain exactly what you think Satan is. Do you think "the spirit of disobedience" in Judas was his own spirit in the sense that he, like all humans, has a spirit along with a body and soul (1 Thess 5:23)? If not, explain clearly what your understanding of Satan is. Just saying it's the spirit of disobedience in man is vague. How can the spirit of disobedience in man travel to and fro on the earth? What does that mean in your view?

Tell me exactly what your undertanding is of this verse...

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Do you think this is talking about the spirit of disobedience in man being cast into the lake of fire? If so, what is the difference between that verse and this one...

Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.