Matthew 24:30 may have a significant mistranslation

[NotTheRock]

We are still awaiting His second coming, which is the blessed hope of the appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ. No amount of preterist nonsense can change that.

How rude. Time for that "ignore" feature.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How rude. Time for that "ignore" feature.

LOL. You call the truth "rude". That's interesting. And I couldn't care less if you put me on ignore. That just means you ignore the truth. Scripture is very clear that Jesus would come a second time, not a third time. To say He already came in 70 AD is ridiculous nonsense and I'm not afraid to say it. No, He did not come yet a second time. That is obvious. Don't fall for the preterist lie.

 

[Douggg]

Did Jesus actually say that the "tribes of the WORLD" would see his coming, or only the tribes "of the land" (Israel)?

All the tribes of the world.

Matthew 24:30 must be understood as having two parts, Matthew 24.30a and Matthew 24:30b - separated by 45 days.

Near the end of the 7-year 70th week of Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:29-30a will take place. It will be the sixth seal event of Revelation 6, that will send terror into the wicked kings of the earth.



In response, in Revelation 16:13-16, the beast, the false prophet, and Satan (speaking through the abomination of desolation statue image) will convince the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus. So for 45 days the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon in preparation.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[ScottA]

The kingdom of God which we now possess is spiritual. Jesus' resurrected body is a spiritual body, but like the angels, can appear physically - as He will appear. Maybe you didn't learn the Prophetic lesson in the Lord's Prayer?
" ...Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven ...,"
I guess you've been praying that prayer for a lifetime and not really knowing it meant?

That would be the new heaven and earth.

But I digress--why do you continue to make claims that cannot be reconciled with all scripture? Perhaps you didn't learn that Christ’s resurrected body was not spirit--as He said.

 

[ScottA]

You quoted scripture that had nothing to do with what I had said. And I already know how convoluted your beliefs are.


LOL. You are completely delusional, as always.


It specifically says He would come from heaven in like manner as He ascended there. The manner in which He ascended is explicity described. It says they literally saw Him go up towards heavens. So, His ascension to heaven was visible and He descension from heaven will also be visible. Everyone will literally see Him whether you can comprehend that or not. No amount of twisting of the text by the likes of you can change that. You are not someone to be taken seriously. That has been established long ago already.

If you want to believe that Jesus entered into heaven in the "same manner" as He walked the earth, against the greater council of all scripture, so be it.

But I tell you that He may have been seen visibly briefly and in part, as a witness, but the greater part of His ascension was "unseen" and He enter the kingdom of heaven as firstfruits of the spirit--not flesh and blood, which "cannot inherit the kingdom of God." What was seen was a spiritual act of God.

 

[HealthyShape]

Did you test your symbolism with the angel's literal statement about Jesus returning in like manner as you saw him leave? (Acts 1 :9-11)
Go ahead and try to present a symbolic interpretation of those verses. Finding scriptures that support the doctrine is crucial.The Bible is in harmony with itself.

Why does this have to by symbolic? Jesus could be seen by some few chosen people like in the Acts, why not? It is actually taught by Paul that those from the first church who would remain alive were supposed to meet Him in the clouds.

Neither Acts nor the epistles are metaphorical books.

"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

That would be the new heaven and earth.

But I digress--why do you continue to make claims that cannot be reconciled with all scripture? Perhaps you didn't learn that Christ’s resurrected body was not spirit--as He said.

No, we are resurrected prior to the the Millennial Kingdom on the 1st earth and will be priests. Our royal priesthood will be fully realized in the Millennial kingdom.
Blessed and holy are those who have a part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Rev. 20:6
Then comes the Great White Throne Judgment. God casts Hades and everyone in it intonthe Lake of Fire along with Death itself, the 1st earth and 1st heavens. This is when the second death occurs ... everything is burned up on this event. (2 Peter 3:10).
Why would priests or kings be necessary in heaven or the new heaven and earth anyways ... to minister, witness or counsel who?

Our new resutrected bodies are raised a spiritual body.
"It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body..." 1 Cor. 15:44.
What you are referring to is when Jesus said, "Touch me, and see; for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have". Luke 24:39, He said this to assure the disciples that He wasn't a ghost/spirit. A Demon does not have flesh and bone, which is what the disciples thought they saw and were afraid. The disciples' fear was calmed.
Our resurrected body will have multidimensional capabilities as do angels have, being able to appear with physical bodies and disappear back into the heavenly realm. Jesus ascended then just disappeared, he passed through the walls in the upper room. Angels are in the spiritual realm all around us. They can travel at great speeds and distances, not being confined to the physical realm with it's limitations. Jesus after appearing to them in Jerusalem also appeared to them in Galilee, some 70 miles away. Do you think He walked 3 or 4 days to get there? The disciples did.
After the Millennial Kingdom, the 1ST Earth and 1st Heavens are then destroyed and the New Jerusalem replaces it. The dimensions are given ... equivalent to 1500 miles cubed. There will be no priests or kings there, just God and us.
Amillennialists continue to distort or disregard scriptures to conform to their views.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Why does this have to by symbolic?

You force symbolic interpretations on His
Second Coming _ when everyone eye will see Him, so I gave you a direct supportive and definitive scripture to that event, Acts 1:9-11. I just expected you symboloze that too. This is the event the angels referred to and it is to be read and understood literally.

Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17

This is the rapture/ resurrection. There are btw two resurrections, one before the Millennial Kingdom and one after.

 

[HealthyShape]

You force symbolic interpretations on His
Second Coming _ when everyone eye will see Him, so I gave you a direct supportive and definitive scripture to that event, Acts 1:9-11. I just expected you symboloze that too. This is the event the angels referred to and it is to be read and understood literally.

I think you still do not understand my point. My point is that the book of Revelation is a book of metaphors and it is the default reading of it. Its genre is not literal. Therefore the descriptions like "every eye will see Him" do not need to be read literally.

It does not mean that I claim that the second coming for His church as such was just symbolic. Because it was also predicted in non-symbolic writings.

This is the rapture/ resurrection. There are btw two resurrections, one before the Millennial Kingdom and one after.

Paul was talking to the first church. Not to us. As I said before, your reading of the Bible is irrational. You are taking metaphors literally and literal writings symbolically. You also do not want to consider what was said to whom, for what time and who was the intended audience.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Paul was talking to the first church. Not to us. As I said before, your reading of the Bible is irrational. You are taking metaphors literally and literal writings symbolically. You also do not want to consider what was said to whom, for what time and who was the intended audience

He was talking to the Thessalonians about a future event and the message is for all. Most of what Paul taught in all the epistles was for all.

My point is that the book of Revelation is a book of metaphors and it is the default reading of it. Its genre is not literal. Therefore the descriptions like "every eye will see Him" do not need to be read literally.

Literal hermeneutics assumes that normal language has a literal meaning unless the text clearly signals a symbol.
Figurative language, such as similes and metaphors, is used alongside literal language to make a literal point more vivid. There is certainly symbolism used in Revealtion, but it describes God's future plan for and judgments on the world.

THERE IS NO NEED TO FURTHER DISCUSS THIS, WE DISAGREE ON MUCH ... FUTILE ARGUMENTS WITH AMILLENNIALISTS ARE NUMEROUS AND EXHAUSTING.
SEE YA IN THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM.

 

[ScottA]

Why would priests or kings be necessary in heaven or the new heaven and earth anyways ... to minister, witness or counsel who?

That is a good question--that if your doctrine were completely sound you would not need to ask.

The answer of which is, that even now we are seated together with Christ in heavenly places ruling and reigning with Him, some as good servants and some as evil servants (for in the world many yet serve two masters). These are the "thousand" years you spoke of ("Thousand" spiritually meaning times where eternity reigns, not of this world but in this world).

 

[ScottA]

Our new resutrected bodies are raised a spiritual body.
"It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body..." 1 Cor. 15:44.
What you are referring to is when Jesus said, "Touch me, and see; for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have". Luke 24:39, He said this to assure the disciples that He wasn't a ghost/spirit. A Demon does not have flesh and bone, which is what the disciples thought they saw and were afraid. The disciples' fear was calmed.
Our resurrected body will have multidimensional capabilities as do angels have, being able to appear with physical bodies and disappear back into the heavenly realm. Jesus ascended then just disappeared, he passed through the walls in the upper room. Angels are in the spiritual realm all around us. They can travel at great speeds and distances, not being confined to the physical realm with it's limitations. Jesus after appearing to them in Jerusalem also appeared to them in Galilee, some 70 miles away. Do you think He walked 3 or 4 days to get there? The disciples did.
After the Millennial Kingdom, the 1ST Earth and 1st Heavens are then destroyed and the New Jerusalem replaces it. The dimensions are given ... equivalent to 1500 miles cubed. There will be no priests or kings there, just God and us.
Amillennialists continue to distort or disregard scriptures to conform to their views.

You are scripturally mixing flesh and blood with spirit--an unholy, worldly cocktail--and not rightly dividing the word of truth. You left out 1 Corinthians 15:36-40. But even so, even if you are tempted to claim that celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies are made up of the same matter--those both are worldly matter, neither of which is spirit--it's just a metaphor or parable--an example.

It is true that the spirit can manifest in any form--even in this world. But in the new heavens and new earth--ask yourself why? What form is there that cast no shadow of turning? And if we are to be One with Christ in God--what need does God have of world matter after it has all been destroyed?

None.

But are we wise to consider that less than what we know and love of this worldly existence we are yet embodied in? Absolutely not. That is, unless we prefer it--in which case, that is what we shall receive in the Judgement, in the lake of fire.

Study more and seek God more, before making such reckless claims.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is esegesis. Nothing in the text suggests it is meant for any other generation than the original audience. Or that there will be some thousands years long gap between mentioned events or that it is meant to apply to people unknown to them, like in Australia.

You mean like “all the nations” didn’t refer to “all the nations” of the known world as well as those unknown at the time? (Matt 24:14) Did Jesus not know that the fulfilment of his own prophesy would be on a global scale?
Christianity was to become a global faith, no longer a local one, as Jesus told the Samaritan woman....
Speaking as the promised Messiah, (that the Samaritans also believed was coming).....this is the first time that Jesus revealed his identity...and to a non-Jew....

John 4:19-26.....ESV...
“The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

So we know that the “new Jerusalem” he spoke about in Revelation, was not earthly Jerusalem....but a heavenly city that was to be the seat of God’s rulership of the whole world.

 

[HealthyShape]

He was talking to the Thessalonians about a future event

Future for them, but close to them - Paul literally wrote "we who will remain living".

and the message is for all. Most of what Paul taught in all the epistles was for all.

This is just your imagination. It is not said in the letter.

Literal hermeneutics assumes that normal language has a literal meaning unless the text clearly signals a symbol.

Literal hermeneutics do not apply to symbolic genres like visions, songs etc.

Figurative language, such as similes and metaphors, is used alongside literal language to make a literal point more vivid. There is certainly symbolism used in Revealtion, but it describes God's future plan for and judgments on the world.

The plan that had to happen soon.

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

I am coming soon.
Rev 3:11

"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6

"Behold, I am coming quickly:"
Rev 22:7

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near."
Rev 22:10

 

[HealthyShape]

You mean like “all the nations” didn’t refer to “all the nations” of the known world as well as those unknown at the time? (Matt 24:14) Did Jesus not know that the fulfilment of his own prophesy would be on a global scale?
Christianity was to become a global faith, no longer a local one, as Jesus told the Samaritan woman....
Speaking as the promised Messiah, (that the Samaritans also believed was coming).....this is the first time that Jesus revealed his identity...and to a non-Jew....

John 4:19-26.....ESV...
“The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

So we know that the “new Jerusalem” he spoke about in Revelation, was not earthly Jerusalem....but a heavenly city that was to be the seat of God’s rulership of the whole world.

Another example of eisegesis and of ignoring the original cultural context.

"For first, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world."
Romans 1:8

But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
R 10:28

"but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations"
R 16:26

"All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing"
Col 1:16

"One of them named Agabus stood up and predicted through the Spirit that a great famine would sweep across the whole world. (This happened under Claudius.)"
Acts 11:28

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You are scripturally mixing flesh and blood with spirit--an unholy, worldly cocktail--and not rightly dividing the word of truth.

No, I am not. Jesus resurrected body was spiritual, yet he stood there a d said touch me. It was also_ upon his will_ physical. He ate food. Our flesh is more than just physical, for sin dwells on it. So when we are changed, we no longer have "sarx".
I think you have been mixing other types of cocktails.

You left out 1 Corinthians 15:36-40. But even so, even if you are tempted to claim that celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies are made up of the same matter

No they are not. Again, the resurrected body will be multi-dimensional. Why can't you get that?

It is true that the spirit can manifest in any form--even in this world

See, you argue against my point, then in thus statement agree with. You just want to argue ... it is your primary motivation to disagree, put down, dismantle the Pre-Mil view. I'm done with you. See you in the Millennial Kingdom ... or maybe not?

 

[ScottA]

No, I am not. Jesus resurrected body was spiritual

Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” Luke 24:36-39​

How are we ever to have a reasonable discussion with you making claims in error, when you too have only "supposed", but do not know the scriptures?

 

[ProverbsInPink]

Imagine if God in his second coming as Jesus only appeared to,over,one region on the Earth. After saying he had earlier come to call his Elect people around the globe to himself.

 

[ScottA]

No they are not. Again, the resurrected body will be multi-dimensional. Why can't you get that?

Outside (above) this world there is no such matter as exists here, that we or Jesus might take that form again. On the contrary, we will not, nor will He ever again. "It is finished." The world and these elements that you refer to in the body of Christ before He ascended, are to be completely destroyed.

But you, having not fully supposed what shall be, speak what you know, while suspecting that I am the one who doesn't get it. So typical.

 

[ScottA]

See, you argue against my point, then in thus statement agree with. You just want to argue ... it is your primary motivation to disagree, put down, dismantle the Pre-Mil view. I'm done with you. See you in the Millennial Kingdom ... or maybe not?

I have said nothing of the "Pre-Mil view."

But I did explain--which you apparently did not read--that the flesh and blood of this world (including that of Christ)--will all be destroyed.