Every rapture position is new

[IndianaRob]

Paul was writing to his fellow Christians in Thessalonica. They, who were reading Paul's letter at the time, along with Paul, were "the we" alive at the time.

In the context of verse 15 and 17, that you quoted, the "we" simply means Christians alive at the time the rapture takes place.

Right Douggg. Forget what the actual text says and make it say whatever you want it to say.

Question. Why do you even use a Bible?

 

[Douggg]

Paul's letters, which we call the books of Thessalonians, Philippians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Romans.... were written to...

the Thessalonians - Christians - in Thessalonica, a city in modern day Greece.

the Philippians - Christians - in Philippi, a city in modern day Greece


the Galatians - Christians - in Galatia, a region in central modern day Turkey

the Ephesians - Christians - in Ephesus, a city in the southwest coast of modern day Turkey

the Colossians - Christians - in Colosse, a city in the southwest of modern day Turkey


the Romans - Christians - in Rome, a city in the center of modern day Italy

 

[Douggg]

Question. Why do you even use a Bible?

Because I love God and my fellow Christians.

 

[HealthyShape]

Paul's letters, which we call the books of Thessalonians, Philippians, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Romans.... were written to...

the Thessalonians - Christians - in Thessalonica, a city in modern day Greece.

the Philippians - Christians - in Philippi, a city in modern day Greece


the Galatians - Christians - in Galatia, a region in central modern day Turkey

the Ephesians - Christians - in Ephesus, a city in the southwest coast of modern day Turkey

the Colossians - Christians - in Colosse, a city in the southwest of modern day Turkey


the Romans - Christians - in Rome, a city in the center of modern day Italy

No, Paul did not write to modern day cities.

 

[IndianaRob]

Because I love God and my fellow Christians.

With love Douggg, you are deceiving yourself and others by twisting verses to make them say what you want them to say.

 

[Douggg]

No, Paul did not write to modern day cities.

Agreed, Paul was writing to Christians in those cities of his day.

 

[HealthyShape]

Agreed, Paul was writing to Christians in those cities of his day.

In that case, "we" means Paul and those Christians of his day. Logically.

 

[rockytopva]

Everyday that passes is a false rapture... But we are commanded to daily stay prepared for it...

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. - Luke 12

 

[GRACE ambassador]

That's what Jesus taught.

Precious friend, did you know Jesus Taught the Second Coming to the twelve for Israel,
and the pre-trib rapture to Paul, for us, the Body Of Christ? - ie:

God's Great GRACE Departure!​

Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified
In Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Amen.

 

[David in NJ]

Precious friend, did you know Jesus Taught the Second Coming to the twelve for Israel,
and the pre-trib rapture to Paul, for us, the Body Of Christ? - ie:

God's Great GRACE Departure!​

Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified
In Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Amen.

Prceious Brother in Christ who is temporarily blind to the Holy Scriptures.

Did you know that the disciples were and are the Bride of Christ = John 3:29

John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
He/JESUS who has the Bride/Disciples is the Bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice.

My precious brother, JESUS Taught the Second Coming to His Bride = the Church = the Saints = the Elect = to us Today

 

[WPM]

Precious friend, did you know Jesus Taught the Second Coming to the twelve for Israel,
and the pre-trib rapture to Paul, for us, the Body Of Christ? - ie:

God's Great GRACE Departure!​

Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified
In Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Amen.

Where is your evidence? Your statement?

I do not think so! This is called private interpretation in Scripture.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Jesus taught the second coming to everyone...

Precious friend, appreciate your kind and humble discussion. Did you know?:

Jesus' earthly Words:

"But He Answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."​

(Matthew 15:24 AV)​

Thus, there is the view that "His Heavenly Words To Paul and us" Entails a 'new and different'
Purpose/Program/Message Which Includes the old doctrine of pre-trib Rapture Of The Body Of Christ.

Full study 'linked' here:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

And, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified
In Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Amen.

 

[David in NJ]

Precious friend, appreciate your kind and humble discussion. Did you know?:

Jesus' earthly Words:

"But He Answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."​

(Matthew 15:24 AV)​

Thus, there is the view that "His Heavenly Words To Paul and us" Entails a 'new and different'
Purpose/Program/Message Which Includes the old doctrine of pre-trib Rapture Of The Body Of Christ.

Full study 'linked' here:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

And, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified
In Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Amen.

Precious brother in the Lord Jesus Christ - Did you know???

JESUS' came as "the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world/Jew & Gentile"

New King James Version - John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Thus, the TRUTH that the Gospel is to the Jew first and also to the Gentile = John 3:16 , Romans 1:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever/Jew&Gentile believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Precious friend - pre-trib rapture is a lie from satan sold to you and all who follow men/religion.

the LORD Says to you @GRACE ambassador: "you have abandoned your first love."

Our First Love is the LORD JESUS and His words = "IAM the Way the Truth and the Life"

Return to "the Love of the TRUTH"

 

[WPM]

Precious friend, appreciate your kind and humble discussion. Did you know?:

Jesus' earthly Words:

"But He Answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."​

(Matthew 15:24 AV)​

Thus, there is the view that "His Heavenly Words To Paul and us" Entails a 'new and different'
Purpose/Program/Message Which Includes the old doctrine of pre-trib Rapture Of The Body Of Christ.

Full study 'linked' here:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

And, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified
In Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Amen.

The first resurrection had to occur before the Gospel went to the nations.

There is one Gospel and one people of God.

 

[David in NJ]

The first resurrection had to occur before the Gospel went to the nations.

Explain

 

[WPM]

Explain

The one and only first resurrection - Jesus Christ.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

No, Paul did not write to modern day cities.

I heard he wrote a litter to Cincinnati and told them not to sin sin anymore!

 

[Earburner]

The "newness" of the rapture is brought up a lot, especially in regard to the pre-trib rapture. The rapture debate is a fairly recent development in Christian history. The primary eschatological focus of the early church was on Christ’s imminent return, whether the millennial reign of Christ was literal or figurative, and the nature and timing of the resurrection and the final judgment, among other issues. Their focus was not on the timing of the rapture, and they didn't have codified rapture doctrine. Sure, you can find elements of every rapture position in their writings if you looked hard enough, but elements don't make a doctrine. The truth is, every rapture position can be traced back to the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. For example:

• The pre-trib rapture was popularized by John Nelson Darby in 1830.
• The mid-trib rapture emerged in 1941 with the publication of the book "The End: Rethinking the Revelation" by Norman B. Harrison.
• Prewrath was conceived in the 1970s by Robert Van Kampen. It became popularized in 1990 with Marvin Rosenthal's book "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church."
• J. Barton Payne was the primary proponent of classic post-tribulationism in his 1962 work "The Imminent Appearing of Christ."
• Semi-classic post-tribulation was espoused by Alexander Reese in his book "The Approaching Advent of Christ," published in 1937.
• Futuristic post-tribulationism was popularized by George E. Ladd in his book "The Blessed Hope," published in 1956.

Does that necessarily invalidate all modern rapture positions? No. Contrary to popular belief, the early church fathers didn’t have all the answers and were still figuring things out for themselves. They were not any more enlightened than the rest of us, they had debates and disagreements just like we do now. This "newness," however, should not be an automatic disqualifier. There are valid reasons for the late development of the various rapture doctrines. They can be summed up by the lack of literacy, availability, and prohibition by the governing authorities. Let me explain.

The first is the problem of literacy. Literacy refers to the ability to read, write, and comprehend written language. We take literacy for granted today, but it was not the universal norm for much of history. In ancient civilizations, literacy was relegated to a small class of people such as priests, scribes, and nobility. In ancient Greece, literacy skills were at a basic level for much of the populace. It wasn’t until the invention of the Gutenberg printing press in the fifteenth century that literacy accelerated. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, laws were introduced in many countries that made literacy learning compulsory. It was only then that literacy became the norm that it is today rather than the exception.

Literacy was only part of the equation. The other problem is that the Bible wasn’t readily available and accessible to the layperson for much of church history. Prior to the creation of the Gutenberg printing press, Bibles were painstakingly copied by hand, making them rare and expensive. Only after the printing press was invented was the production and dissemination of Bibles to the masses possible. But even after mass production of the Bible was possible, it was still not accessible to everyone.

During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church exerted complete control over the production and dissemination of the Bible. Only the upper clergy and educated elite were allowed to read the Scriptures, as it was believed only they could understand and explain the teachings to the common people. At that time, Latin was the preferred language for official Church documents, theological discussions, and academic settings. Consequently, translating the Bible into other languages was either discouraged or expressly prohibited.

John Wycliffe produced the first English translation of the Bible, but it faced opposition from church leaders. John Wycliffe was later posthumously condemned, and the English Church banned unauthorized translations of the Bible in 1408. Scholar and theologian William Tyndale was another notable example. Tyndale translated the Bible into English in the early 1520s. His work would later form the basis for future English translations of the Bible, including the King James Version. However, his translation was not well received by the Catholic Church. After a year in prison, Tyndale was strangled and burned at the stake in 1536.

The Council of Trent was convened by the Roman Catholic Church between 1545 and 1563 to counter the Protestant Reformation movement. Among their objectives was to reaffirm the Latin Vulgate as the authoritative version of the Bible for Catholics. Unfortunately, Latin was not widely known or understood by the common people, especially those outside the clergy, scholars, and educated elites. Queen Mary I of England reinforced the Latin Vulgate as the authoritative version of the Bible for Catholics by discouraging translations into local vernaculars to prevent misinterpretation during her reign from 1553 to 1558. She attempted to reverse the English Reformation and eliminate Protestant versions of the Bible. Many Protestant leaders were subsequently arrested and burned at the stake for their “heresies.” Due to her ruthless reign, she earned the nickname Bloody Mary.

All this is to say that accessibility, literacy, and the availability of vernacular translations of the Bible didn’t fully come to fruition until the past three to four hundred years or so. Once the layperson could read the Bible freely for themselves, the study of prophecy and eschatology really took off. The common person was able to glean new insights that I don't think were possible in previous generations. Just because they weren't early church fathers should not invalidate their understanding and insights of scriptures. Nor should age be the determining factor in whether something is true or not. For instance, it took roughly four hundred years after Pentecost until the Trinity doctrine was firmly established. If age were the ultimate test of validity, then the heresy of Gnosticism would be true since it’s nearly as old as Christianity itself.

I would suggest there is another explanation for the lateness of these rapture doctrines. God doesn’t always reveal everything to us at once; sometimes it’s in increments. The Church dispensation, for example, was hidden from the Old Testament prophets. It was a mystery until it was revealed to the apostles, specifically the Apostle Paul. God allows certain things to remain hidden for His express purposes. When Daniel was shown a vision of future events, he didn’t understand what he was seeing:

Dan 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
Dan 12:8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
Dan 12:9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

It wasn't time for Daniel to understand those things, and how could he have understood the world we live in today? But it may be our time and time itself reveals things to us. We gain knowledge and understanding in proportion to the resources and education available to us. That makes us capable of understanding certain things that not even the prophets of old could have understood, like how technology could be used in the end-times. It only makes sense, then, that as we get closer to the end of this age and the return of Christ, the more God reveals to us about the rapture and end times. That’s not to say that we still have all the answers, just as the early church didn't have all the answers. But it does mean that we have more insights than they did.

"The Rapture" (and the end of explaining it) is completely described in KJV Luke 17:28-30 and 2Thes. 1:7-10.