Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?
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pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Yes because a kingdom divided cannot stand and besides that I have learned that some of my original beliefs were wrong so laying down what I think I know in order that the church might be united in Christ yes I would say it is more than worth it
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
You seem to have the wrong idea about me.
That was a beautiful video.
The evangelist in that video was building bridges, not walls.
He wasn't screaming that the other was going to hell.
The Holy Spirit was in that moment. (a divine appointment)
[
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
True.
Did you see where the Evangelist there implied the Satanist should go forth and remain as they are?
Luke 10:19
Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Acts 2:34-36
New King James Version
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
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David did not ascend into the heavens, but Christ has. For now, that is where he will stay.
The order of power and authority, Christ is risen from the dead and all power over earth and in heaven has been given to Him.
And he must reign at the Father's side until, what? Until the last enemy is destroyed, which is DEATH.
DEATH is only destroyed when after the final judgment it is cast into the Lake of Fire, then Christ will turn over the kingdom to the Father.
Christ then can leave the Father's side. Heaven must receive Him until the restoration of all things, which happens after this "END", which is also His returning. He remains at the Father's side till DEATH is in the Lake of Fire.
Which means the New Jerusalem which descends out of heaven onto the New earth is when Christ will also walk on the new earth.
And Christ will reign there, and including the Father too. Interesting to think about.
1 Cor 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Do people realize that at Christ's coming GOD will bring with Him all the departed saints? OK.
Do people realize Christ comes and GOD the FATHER is with Him?
Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 14:62
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
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Christ when he comes remains seated at the right hand of the POWER (Father God) even when He comes, the Father is with Christ,
Death is not yet been cast into the Lake of Fire.
That happens at the Day of Judgment.
Peter says like this about Christ's return
Acts 3
17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days.
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When Christ returns, all those who refused to hear Him, as in (those who do not hear God are not of God as Jesus spoke in John 8), they shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. There will be no ungodly survivors when God sends Christ again.
When Christ returns it is the 'restoration of all things', and that is the New Earth and the New Heaven, when God says, "behold, I make all things new"
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Revelation 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
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The above is the truth, and does step on some people's toes as they think something different!
Acts 3
17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send [c]Jesus Christ, who was [d]preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since [e]the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also [f]foretold these days.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When Christ returns, all those who refused to hear Him, as in (those who do not hear God are not of God as Jesus spoke in John 8), they shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. There will be no ungodly survivors when God sends Christ again.
When Christ returns it is the 'restoration of all things', and that is the New Earth and the New Heaven, when God says, "behold, I make all things new"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Revelation 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said [b]to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The above is the truth, and does step on some people's toes as they think something different!
"Christ then can leave the Father's side. Heaven must receive Him until the restoration of all things, which happens after this "END", which is also His returning. He remains at the Father's side till DEATH is in the Lake of Fire."
Thanks for clearing something up for me, that Christ will not reign 1000 years on earth UNTIL death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire.
I'm still not understanding, unless you are a pre-trib rapture person. There is the "new earth", the new heavens...Jesus only returns one time IMHO...final judgement, goats, sheep...it is confusing still.
Timelines are confusing to me. I will read your next post brother!!
Nowhere in Rev 20 does it say the 1000 year reign is on the earth.
That reign is where Christ is, He is in heaven now and has been 2000 years, much of Revelation is symbolic.
When believers die, they go to be with Christ. They reign with Him in heaven.
Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus
1000 years signifies a long indeterminate period of time before Christ returns as we do not know the Day of His returning to judge the world.
That time duration is only known by the Father.
I am not pretrib.
Judgment Day comes and Christ is the judge, He will judge the world in righteousness, according to the gospel.
The dividing of the sheep and Goats is that Day
At the Day of Christ, the dead are raised,
We are caught up to be with Him in the air
Christ burns the world in fiery destruction
All are resurrected on that Day, it is the Last Day.
Some have the resurrection of condemnation, some of life.
John 5
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
John 5
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
And Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
And 2 Timothy 4
I charge you [a]therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead [b]at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
And the Last Day
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
The Last Day is the last day of the world, which God refers to as the first earth
The Last Day is the Day of Christ, the Day of vengeance of our God.
Would you surrender a belief in Jesus' death on the cross and bodily resurrection for unity? What core essentials of Christianity would you be willing to part with for the sake of unity?
I think you misunderstand where I am coming from.
Most assume that doctrinal unity is necessary, I don't.
The Unity and Division threads - Unified to one topic - Divided by links
Doctrinolatry - tribalism and division in the Body of Christ A follow-up to my Bibliolatry topic. Doctrine becomes an idol when it is used to support tribalism and cause division in the Body of Christ. Since doctrinal unity is impossible, allowing others to hold their own doctrinal opinions may...
www.christianityboard.com
I understand where you are coming from but I am just asking you these questions. What are your answers?I think you misunderstand where I am coming from.
Most assume that doctrinal unity is necessary, I don't.
The Unity and Division threads - Unified to one topic - Divided by links
Doctrinolatry - tribalism and division in the Body of Christ A follow-up to my Bibliolatry topic. Doctrine becomes an idol when it is used to support tribalism and cause division in the Body of Christ. Since doctrinal unity is impossible, allowing others to hold their own doctrinal opinions may...
"Would you surrender a belief in Jesus' death on the cross and bodily resurrection for unity? What core essentials of Christianity would you be willing to part with for the sake of unity?"
The fact is that we are commanded to contend for the true faith.I think you misunderstand where I am coming from.
Most assume that doctrinal unity is necessary, I don't.
The Unity and Division threads - Unified to one topic - Divided by links
Doctrinolatry - tribalism and division in the Body of Christ A follow-up to my Bibliolatry topic. Doctrine becomes an idol when it is used to support tribalism and cause division in the Body of Christ. Since doctrinal unity is impossible, allowing others to hold their own doctrinal opinions may...
Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
I bet your next question is "well, what is the true faith?" The true faith are the core essentials that define Christianity. If any of these are cast aside we are then commanded to not even bid such a one "godspeed:
Jn 9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
The doctrine of Christ are those core essentials that define what Christianity is. We can disagree about fringe doctrines and such but the core essentials must be agreed upon before there is unity.
You love to gaslight and evade questions don't you?
Christians disagree on many secondary issues, but through history—across Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditionsthere has been remarkable unity about a small set of core, essential doctrines that define Christian faith. These are the teachings without which Christianity ceases to be Christianity. If we agree on these we can have unity.
Below is a historically grounded, widely recognized list.
Core Essential Doctrines of the Christian Faith
1. The Existence of One God
- God is real, eternal, uncreated.
- There is only one God (monotheism).
- God is the Creator of all things.
Historic creeds: Nicene Creed, Apostles’ Creed.
2. The Trinity
- One God in three Persons:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. - Each Person is fully God.
- God is one in essence, three in person.
This is the single most universally affirmed Christian doctrine after the existence of God.
3. The Deity and Humanity of Jesus Christ
Essential beliefs:
- Jesus is fully God (John 1:1; Col. 2:9).
- Jesus is fully human (John 1:14; Heb. 2:17).
- He is the eternal Son, not a created being.
Historic controversy: Arianism (rejected in A.D. 325).
4. The Death of Christ for Our Sins
- Christ truly died on the cross.
- His death was a substitutionary sacrifice.
- This act reconciles humans to God.
Across Christian traditions, salvation is impossible apart from Christ's atoning death.
5. The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus
- Jesus physically rose from the dead.
- This is a literal historical event.
- It is the basis of Christian hope (1 Cor. 15).
Paul states that without this truth, “your faith is futile.”
6. Salvation by Grace (Not by Human Works Alone)
All branches of Christianity agree that:
- Salvation is impossible without God’s grace.
- Humans cannot save themselves.
Different traditions nuance:
- Protestants emphasize grace alone (sola gratia).
- Catholics/Orthodox emphasize sacramental and cooperative grace.
But all agree salvation comes through God’s gracious initiative, not mere human effort.
7. The Saving Work of the Holy Spirit
- The Spirit regenerates, sanctifies, indwells, empowers, and seals believers.
- No one can be saved without the work of the Spirit.
8. The Authority of Scripture
Every major branch of Christianity holds that:
- Scripture is the inspired Word of God.
- It is authoritative for Christian faith and life.
(Disagreements exist about the canon and tradition, but not about the divine inspiration of scripture itself.)
9. The Second Coming of Christ
- Jesus will personally return.
- He will judge the living and the dead.
- God will establish His eternal kingdom.
Details differ across traditions—timing, millennium, etc.—but the personal return of Christ is universally affirmed.
10. Core Elements of the Gospel
Summarized, the gospel contains these essentials:
- Humanity is fallen and needs salvation.
- Jesus died for our sins.
- Jesus rose again.
- Salvation is received by faith.
- Jesus is Lord.
These are explicit in 1 Corinthians 15.
I am now going to ask you once again these questions you keep dodging
"Would you surrender a belief in Jesus' death on the cross and bodily resurrection for unity? What core essentials of Christianity(above) would you be willing to part with for the sake of unity"
You may be able to gather information on the denominational level, though I don't think there is consensus there either, but certainly on the individual level there is no consensus. Check out the differences in opinion on my Trinity topic. And the other essentials you listed are on shaky ground as well.
You may be able to find major denominational agreement, but not with every denomination.
And on an individual basis there is broad disagreement on most of the essentials you listed.
Check out the statistics of John MacArthur's denomination.
"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed
Why bang the same old drum; the sound of others being wrong and I have the right path. Whether that is true or not is beside the point.....the point being, this approach does nothing to qualify what is true, to validate your view or to bring glory to God. And your reply does not bang your drum...
www.christianityboard.com
65% of Evangelicals agreed that everyone is born innocent.
55% agreed that the Bible is not literally true.
56% agreed that God accepts worship from all religions.
43% agreed that Jesus was a good teacher, but not God.
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