Is it possible to lose salvation?

[PinSeeker]

Sorry but Baptism has not replaced circumcision.

It has. We disagree. Once again, I think you will find it in what Paul says about the two in Colossians 2:11-12.

No I showed you Jewish historians.

Historians are often wrong... or misunderstood... or both.

But as you reject history

No, but I don't cherry-pick, either. <smile>

...we have reached the end of this conversation being useful.

Fair enough.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There is no such thing in Greek. It is very inflected and not English.

WRONG.

Take adelphos, for example. It is defines as brother - but it can also be used for multiple things, as I have already educated you. This is NOT a "new" development.

Here are a few examples of this from the Septuagint, which was translated 200 years before Jesus was born:
Adelphos-NEPHEW (Gen. 11:26–28)
Adelphos-UNCLE Gen. 29:15
Adelphos-COUSIN (1 Chr. 23:21–22)

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

 

[MonoBiblical]

WRONG.

Take adelphos, for example. It is defines as brother - but it can also be used for multiple things, as I have already educated you. This is NOT a "new" development.

Here are a few examples of this from the Septuagint, which was translated 200 years before Jesus was born:
Adelphos-NEPHEW (Gen. 11:26–28)
Adelphos-UNCLE Gen. 29:15
Adelphos-COUSIN (1 Chr. 23:21–22)

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

I think I remember admitting I was wrong about adelphos.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I think I remember admitting I was wrong about adelphos.

That wasn't my point.
My point was that - just like "adelphos" has many uses - do does "oiou".

 

[MonoBiblical]

That wasn't my point.
My point was that - just like "adelphos" has many uses - do does "oiou".

You are wrong, and the lexicon makes look like it has many uses. It is wrong with authority, and it is easy to spot.

 

[Christian Soldier]

The world in John 3:16 refers to people; unsaved people. People that need salvation.


And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:14-17


World in this context is referring to the world of unsaved people that Jesus Christ was sent to provide salvation for.

Your interpretation of those verses doesn't line up with the overall gospel message, which asserts that the word "world" as used in those contexts refers to Gods elect from all over the world. This includes the elect who were already saved and those who were yet to be saved.

It never includes those whom God did not chose to save before time began, it only includes those of us who's names were written in Gods book of life before He created the world. There's just no way around this cold hard truth, the truth is awful to those who don't know the truth but it is beautiful to those of us who do know the truth.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Delusional.

Yes God has sent strong delusion to everyone like you who reject the truth of the gospel. He actually makes it impossible for the likes of yourself, to believe the truth.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Yes God has sent strong delusion to everyone like you who reject the truth of the gospel. He actually makes it impossible for the likes of yourself, to believe the truth.

Sure, faith first, but works have more merit.

 

[David Lamb]

Sure, faith first, but works have more merit.

Works have more merit than faith? Not according to Ephesians 2:

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Eph 2:8-9 NKJV)

The next verse says thatwe are saved in order to do good works:

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:10 NKJV)

 

[MonoBiblical]

Works have more merit than faith? Not according to Ephesians 2:

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Eph 2:8-9 NKJV)

The next verse says thatwe are saved in order to do good works:

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:10 NKJV)

Works without faith? never heard of it.

 

[David Lamb]

Works without faith? never heard of it.

Sorry - where did I mention works without faith?

 

[Wrangler]

You move goalposts as a pastime. It's comically bad faith by you.

Keen observation.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Sorry - where did I mention works without faith?

Faith happens first, then works.

 

[JLB]

It refers to an area which may or may not be Israel. The Hebrews has no concept of globe, though they knew by astronomy that the planet or the altogether was round. There is no expanse or vault in the sky. There was a massive rock covering future flood waters. How was Israel rescued or saved then? It wasn't with Bar Kochba.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


The world refers to the unsaved people of the world.

 

[JLB]

Your interpretation of those verses doesn't line up with the overall gospel message, which asserts that the word "world" as used in those contexts refers to Gods elect from all over the world. This includes the elect who were already saved and those who were yet to be saved.

It never includes those whom God did not chose to save before time began, it only includes those of us who's names were written in Gods book of life before He created the world. There's just no way around this cold hard truth, the truth is awful to those who don't know the truth but it is beautiful to those of us who do know the truth.

Posting your opinion with no scripture indicates that your doctrine is based on whatever you decide to think, and not scripture.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:14-17


God loves the unsaved people of the world.

Whoever means whoever, and does not preclude anyone based on nationality.

 

[GodsGrace]

Another reason for this reading, beyond the immediate context and how the author uses "kai" in the verse itself, is that this reading is consistent with how the author likes to use "kai" in lists generally.

John 2:11 is an example where each item in the list also gets separated by a "kai": Jesus (he), "and" his mother, "and" the brothers, "and" his disciples, went down to Capernaum.

Μετὰ τοῦτο κατέβη εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ αὐτὸς καὶ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ

John 2:14, just a few verses later, similarly--Jesus finds people in the temple selling cattle "and" sheep "and" doves.

καὶ εὗρεν ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ τοὺς πωλοῦντας βόας καὶ πρόβατα καὶ περιστερὰς καὶ τοὺς κερματιστὰς καθημένους

It also comports with how we see the author uses postpositive adjective phrases to describe people or things he mentions. So John 1:40, "Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two . . . ."

Ἦν Ἀνδρέας ὁ ἀδελφὸς Σίμωνος Πέτρου εἷς ἐκ τῶν δύο τῶν ἀκουσάντων παρὰ Ἰωάνου καὶ ἀκολουθησάντων αὐτῷ

Or John 6:1, Jesus went over the "Sea of Galiliee, [that is, the Sea] of Tiberias."

Μετὰ ταῦτα ἀπῆλθεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς πέραν τῆς θαλάσσης τῆς Γαλιλαίας τῆς Τιβεριάδος

Or John 6:8, similar to John 1:40, another mention of "Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter."

λέγει αὐτῷ εἷς ἐκ τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ, Ἀνδρέας ὁ ἀδελφὸς Σίμωνος Πέτρου

Or John 6:42, "isn't this Jesus, the son of Joseph . . . ?"

καὶ ἔλεγον Οὐχ οὗτός ἐστιν Ἰησοῦς ὁ υἱὸς Ἰωσήφ, οὗ ἡμεῖς οἴδαμεν τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὴν μητέρα; πῶς νῦν λέγει ὅτι Ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβέβηκα

Or John 6:71, "now he was speaking of Judas, [son of] Simon Iscariot."

ἔλεγεν δὲ τὸν Ἰούδαν Σίμωνος Ἰσκαριώτου· οὗτος γὰρ ἔμελλεν παραδιδόναι αὐτόν, εἷς ἐκ τῶν δώδεκα.

So while it's certainly not necessary to the dogma of the perpetual virginity to find in John 19:25 a use of "sister" to speak of someone who was not actually a biological sibling of the mother of Jesus; and we need not be dogmatic about how to read the verse, this is why I stand by why, correctly read, it indeed refers to three people--the mother of Jesus, her sister Mary of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

And for what its worth, not Hahn or Bergsma directly, but I did find this article from their organization, the St. Paul Center, expressing this view: Who Were the Women at the Crucifixion? - St. Paul Center

Thanks RSW
Also read your linked article.

I found this part very interesting.
Thanks for the link!


But if this reading is correct, then we are left with a new puzzle: Does it really make sense to say that Mary the mother of Jesus had a sister who was also called Mary? Admittedly, there was far less variety of personal names in first century Judea than what we observe in western culture today. Mary in particular was an extremely popular female name, accounting for as many as one in four of the women who lived in the Holy Land during Jesus’s day. But even so, it still seems unlikely that a family would give two of their daughters the same first name.



Fortunately, we can avoid this conundrum by recognizing that the Greek word for “sister” (adelphē) is not necessarily restricted to biological siblings. For example, the word can also refer to sisters-in-law, which in this instance seems to make the most sense. In fact, early Christian tradition identifies Clopas as the brother of Joseph, the foster father of Jesus (see Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 3.11 and 4.22). If this tradition is correct, then Joseph and Clopas were brothers who both married women called Mary, and these Marys were therefore sisters-in-law.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith happens first, then works.

Yes. Saved by grace through faith FIRST then, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. Saved by grace through faith FIRST then, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Sounds right.
Ready yet to state that we are required to do good works?
LOL
Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are wrong, and the lexicon makes look like it has many uses. It is wrong with authority, and it is easy to spot.

Soooo, once again - when YOU'RE backed into a corner, the scholarship is "wrong".
Hilarious!

Face it - you simply FAILED to do your homework and wound up sticking your foot in your mouth again . . .

 

[mailmandan]

Sounds right.
Ready yet to state that we are required to do good works?
LOL
Happy Thanksgiving.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Happy Thanksgiving.