How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[shepherdsword]

It isn't pluralized in the LXX ever.

It is in the Hebrew text so stop dodging that. The greek uses "Theos" because of syntax. And since the greek is a translation of the Hebrew...well, there you have it. Even if the LXX does predate the Masoretic and used a different Hebrew source there is no evidence that this source did not also use "Elohim"

Elohim is not the main name of God either.

No, but it's the name used in the creation of man to show the participation of all members of the Godhead.

 

[MonoBiblical]

It is in the Hebrew text so stop dodging that. The greek uses "Theos" because of syntax. And since the greek is a translation of the Hebrew...well, there you have it. Even if the LXX does predate the Masoretic and used a different Hebrew source there is no evidence that this source did not also use "Elohim"

No, it uses Theos because the original Hebrew manuscripts were Aramaic.

No, but it's the name used in the creation of man to show the participation of all members of the Godhead.

Huh

 

[David in NJ]

View attachment 74488

DWELL on TRUTH

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

2“Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[MonoBiblical]

DWELL on TRUTH

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

2“Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

And...?

 

[David in NJ]

@shepherdsword @MonoBiblical

And...?

GOOD NIGHT everyone

 

[Grailhunter]

Sure thing = just a sit was when JESUS walked this earth

Get in the Camp where the HOLY SPIRIT is the Director/ Camp Counselor/ and Activity Director

just a sit was when????

 

[shepherdsword]

No, it uses Theos because the original Hebrew manuscripts were Aramaic.

Huh

You cannot prove that. It's only opinion.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, it uses Theos because the original Hebrew manuscripts were Aramaic.

Huh

Hebrew scriptures were written in Hebrew.
Old Aramaic was the language of the ancient Aramean tribes.
Not to say that the Isreilite did not occationaly adopt words from other languages like Aramaic and Chaldean.

The New Testament was mostly written in Greek with occassional Aramaic used. But Aramaic was a common spoken language.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

just a sit was when????

Try to read what they wrote.
Just as it was when Jesus walked this earth.

 

[Grailhunter]

Try to read what they wrote.
Just as it was when Jesus walked this earth.

Thank you for the rudeness but what do you mean by just a sit was when??

 

[soberxp]

angles vs angels are they some sort of dimensional being?

Celestial being? Yes.
Dimensional being? Yes.

They are components of programming languages which created and formed this world. They are not the creators, because the word was God, but the world was created through them.

Think about it as a metaphor, if you play the 3d games.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Hebrew scriptures were written in Hebrew.
Old Aramaic was the language of the ancient Aramean tribes.
Not to say that the Isreilite did not occationaly adopt words from other languages like Aramaic and Chaldean.

The New Testament was mostly written in Greek with occassional Aramaic used. But Aramaic was a common spoken language.

What did I tell you to do in my last post to you?

 

[St. SteVen]

Just a comment to stress that, sometimes, translating a text from one language to another requires adjustments; word-for-word may not fit.

Agree. Thanks.

 

[David in NJ]

just a sit was when????

LOL = thank you for pulling up a chair on the 'sit in' error on my post

Should read = just as it

 

[Jack]

How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?​

It didn't develop. It always was.

Gen 1 God said, "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness".

Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

 

[David in NJ]

How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?​

It didn't develop. It always was.

Gen 1 God said, "Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness".

Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

FINALLY - i was waiting for you to SEE and SAY what has Always been since GENESIS

 

[Aunty Jane]

Can "a God" (instead of God)
forgive sins?
do miracles?
be worshipped?

A little knowledge of Greek and its phrasing might be helpful in responding to the various claims made in this post....
Who can forgive sins? Only God has that authority....but he has bestowed that authority on his son. (Matt 28:18)

In the account of the paralysed man whose friends lowered him down to Jesus through the tile on the roof...the account says....
“On perceiving their faith, Jesus said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” Then the scribes and the Pharisees began to ask each other, “Who is this man uttering blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Jesus discerned what they were thinking, and he said in reply, “Why do you entertain such thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier—to say: ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say: ‘Stand up and walk’? But that you may come to realize that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralyzed man—“I say to you, stand up, and take your bed, and go to your home.” Immediately, the man stood up before them, picked up his bed, and went home glorifying God.” (Luke 5:20-25 NCB)

Yes, Jesus was authorised to forgives sins on his Father’s behalf.

“Do miracles”? Even the apostles could do miracles....they did so by the power of God’s Holy Spirit, like Jesus did, after his baptism.

Be worshipped? Jesus did not receive worship.....the word in Greek is “pro·sky·neʹo which can mean “worship” when directed to Jehovah, or it is translated as “obeisance” when used towards a human. Jesus was a human....and obeisance was common in Bible times, showing respect.

This word is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Matt 18:26) as well as the act satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Matt 4:8-9) Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have signified submission to satan and made himself the Devil’s servant. But Jesus refused.

This is why you cannot rely on translation alone to give you the truth of the Bible....go back to the original language and see what it means to its intended audience....and how it is used in context.

Another example is what the magi offered to the child whom they recognised to be the future “King of the Jews”.....they did not give the infant “worship” as a god, but “obeisance” as royalty, out of respect. They were Babylonian astrologers who already worshipped a multitude of gods.

Thomas called Jesus GOD...Jesus did not correct Him.

Did he? Or did he simply recognize Jesus as God’s divine Son? To call someone “theos” isn’t calling them “God” with a capital “G”...it recognises their “divinity” or “divine authority”, not only an acknowledgment of deity.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why did Caiphas tear his robe?
Because he believed that Jesus blasphemed,,,calling Himself God. (not a god).

The drama was to convince his audience of the gravity of what Jesus said! The Jewish leadership wanted to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus in order to have an excuse to put him to death.....but did Jesus claim to be “God” or only his “divine” son?

“The Jews answered, “We are not going to stone you for any good work you have done, but for blasphemy. Even though you are a man, you are claiming to be God.” (THEOS) Jesus replied,“Is it not written in your Law,‘I said: You are gods’? (THEOS) If those to whomthe word of God (HO THEOS) was addressed are called ‘gods’ (THEOS) —and Scripture cannot be set aside— how can you say, ‘You blaspheme,’to the one whom the Father has consecratedand sent into the worldfor saying, ‘I am the Son of God’? (HO THEOS) ” (John 10:31-36 NCB)

Read in Greek, you see exactly what the Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be....Jesus is never called “HO THEOS” (Yahweh/ Jehovah) in any verse of the Bible (God with a capital “G”)
You can see ”god” with a small “g” in those verses, but in Greek, there are no capital letters......they are added by the translators. So in claiming to be “the divine son of God”...they did not accuse him of saying he was God....that is mistranslation.

Nor does John 1:1 say that Jesus is “HO THEOS”....if correctly read according to Strongs primary definition of “THEOS”...

1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities.

John 1:1-3 states.....
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (HO THEOS) and the Word was God. (THEOS) He was with God (HO THEOS) in the very beginning. Through him all things came into existence, and without him there was nothing. That which came to be.”

V14...”And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.And we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.” (NCB)

“The Word “(THEOS) became flesh....not GOD. (HO THEOS)....described as ”the Father’s only son”.

The correct translation in English was not given because it fought with a doctrine that should never have been accepted by the church in the first place.

Where did Jesus ever call himself “Almighty God”? I am still waiting for a clear unequivocal statement to that effect...but so far none have been forthcoming....

Find in the bible where it states that we shouldn't do drugs.

Interesting that in the Bible the word for spiritism is is “phar·ma·kiʹa”, which literally means “druggery.” This term came to be connected with spiritism because in ancient times, drugs were used when invoking the power of the demons in order to practice sorcery.
So the use of drugs needs our attention.....not for recreational use.....even alcohol is a drug. Anything that can lead to addiction must be considered carefully.

 

[Aunty Jane]

sometimes the AND means BOTH God and Savior.

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Which in Greek reads with phrasing that is not well translated into English.....
“awaiting the happy hope and manifestation of the glory of the great God and of Savior of us of Christ Jesus“....This does not say “our great God and Savior” as if they were the same person....in Greek two separate persons are acknowledged there....there is not three.

One and the same.

No...not one and the same at all.

1 Peter 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

here Peter distinquishes between God Father and our Lord Jesus.

Jesus clearly identified his Father as his God.
To Mary Magdalene he said after his resurrection....
John 20:17....
“Jesus then said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” (NCB)
Was Jesus just speaking about his fleshly status? Then please explain Rev 3:12 when he had already returned to his Father in heaven. He calls his Father “my God”, four times in that one verse.

2 Peter 1:1b
...who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Here there is no distinction...Peter calls Jesus God and Savior...Peter identifies Jesus as being BOTH.Maybe in English.....but the Bible was not written in English...

Maybe in English it sounds like what you want to believe....but the Bible was not written in English.
Greek phrasing is again like the previous verse you used in Titus.

“having obtained faith in righteousness of the God of us and of Savior Jesus Christ”

It’s not saying what you want it to....two separate individuals....and the third person is again missing.

When there are two similar passages...one with less information and one with more information...
the law of contextual criticism states that we must accept the passage with more information.

What a shame your church doesn’t follow that rule.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus said THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE.

Jesus also said in prayer to his Father on behalf of his disciples....in John 17:21-23....
“May they all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I in you, may they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. “The glory that you have given me I have given to them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, and thus the world may know that you have sent me and that you have loved them even as you have loved me.” (NCB)

So, if you allow Scripture to interpret Scripture.....one verse is clarified by another....these verses do not say what is assumed by the majority.....

It was believed that jesus was God at the time of the Apostles and immediately thereafter...
I've posted writings of the early church fathers dating back to late 1st century and early 2nd century.

Can YOU provide historical proof that it was not believed that Jesus was God until the 4th or 5th century?

If you can’t produce Scripture, it is inadmissible.....the writings of the ECF’s are not part of Scripture for a reason. Apostasy was already beginning towards the end of the first century, so anything written after the first century is not acceptable.

We are to be Bible students, and can only go by the teachings of Jesus Christ....he never once mentioned equality with God as applying to himself or anyone else. If Jesus didn’t say it, and God never mentioned it in his word, no one has a right to add to what the Bible says......you can try, but it won’t alter the truth.

So should we be taught by men of today...
or the Apostles and those that knew the Apostles?

God has always provided men to teach his people....but they had to have his spirit operative on them and only teach what was taught to them. They were to add nothing, even as Jesus said....he was taught by his Father who authorised him to teach his apostles. (John 7:15-16) Jesus authorised his apostles to teach others. Only spiritually qualified men were to be used as teachers in the Christian congregation......that is not someone who is just theologically qualified.....we have to know the difference.

We are taught by the apostles whose words are recorded in God’s word. Nothing is said about learning from the ones who knew the apostles...or their words would be part of Scripture....