Is God Magnanimous? - (as opposed to tyrannical)

[Hiddenthings]

It looked like a lot of work that I have already done before.

From over here you are yet to start...

 

[Hiddenthings]

You stated

The terms of the covenant in Genesis 15, outlined in verses Jer 34:18-20, involve a solemn act where all parties must pass between the divided pieces of a sacrificed calf.

Yes with Abram, here I will highlight the smoking furnace with it

Genesis 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years

The furnace and the affliction shown

Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Is your question asking why Abraham didn't pass through the sacrifices?

Exodus 17:13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

Exodus 17:15 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

To Saul he said,

1 Sam 15:18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

It was carried out by the Prophet Samuel because King Saul failed to execute his wrath and to do what was spoken of much earlier than what is shown in Samuel, but way back in Exodus

Exodus 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

God is just in destroying those who willfully disregard His commands, and He has the authority to command His servants to carry out His judgment with the sword, as He did through men like Samuel and David.

Forum members like Quiet and Steven are pacifists, and they fail to understand that the command to love your enemies and turn the other cheek will be replaced with a different command when God's timing is revealed on earth. This does not mean we cease to love only that when the command comes, the wicked will perish.

As you rightly state the remembrance of them will be removed forever.

 

[quietthinker]

This is the embodiment of pure ignorance. It's actually pointless to even try correcting him, given the depth of his foolishness. The greatest death in this entire creation, before it even began was the planned death of His Son, foreshadowed by Abraham taking his son up the mountain, but ultimately fulfilled with the Father and Son who together conquered sin and death.

Here is the paradox dear readers!

Isaac being bound by His Father foreshadowed the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ; for although he was killed by "wicked hands," it was all part of "the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23).

Two motives exercised in a single event.

Quiet & St. Stephen would attribute the actions of the "wicked hands" to a "righteous God" if they believed that God sacrificed His Son, but they do not, they cannot, grasp the full depth of spiritual significance in God raising His Son as a banner for all peoples to witness, the contrast between God's love and the wickedness of men is conflated by them because they know not God.

@Lizbeth @Wrangler @MonoBiblical – These two forum members have been promoting their universal salvation fallacies for quite some time, and one can’t help but wonder how and why they’ve been allowed such freedom. On the other hand, I find it equally disturbing when people believe that God will eternally torture the wicked while they themselves dwell in eternal bliss. They also know not God.

All I can say Hidden, there are questions you have not asked or do not want to ask and assumptions born from what you refuse to understand. It births accusations which propel you to 'travelling land and sea to make a single convert.......'.
However, persuasion is not brought about by arms being twisted. Folk make their choices on revelations far more persuasive than force.

 

[quietthinker]

Your responses are just like Quiet's, when faced with the substance of @Wrangler's post, you couldn't engage with the content, so you resorted to your usual empty one-liners with a hint of sarcastic humor.

Assuming argument (that which you call engagement) is the path to righteousness, only leaves one with a head full of pride, empty pockets and a heart which hates.

 

[Hiddenthings]

All I can say Hidden,

You have said so little!

there are questions you have not asked or do not want to ask and assumptions born from what you refuse to understand. It births accusations which propel you to 'travelling land and sea to make a single convert.......'.

Ah more of the same!

However, persuasion is not brought about by arms being twisted. Folk make their choices on revelations far more persuasive than force.

You don't learn and you cannot change - reminds me of those in John 8

 

[Muna]

Is your question asking why Abraham didn't pass through the sacrifices?

I quoted you in post #357 here

The terms of the covenant in Genesis 15, outlined in verses Jer 34:18-20, involve a solemn act where all parties must pass between the divided pieces of a sacrificed calf.

3 pages back I had asked

There were two parties passing between the pieces in Genesis 15?

You are giving me the impression you see the furnace and the lamp as those particular parties involved

 

[Hiddenthings]

Assuming argument (that which you call engagement) is the path to righteousness, only leaves one with a head full of pride, empty pockets and a heart which hates.

More of the same.

This thread contains volumes of examples from inspired texts, yet you defend your position with a Dylan song and the actions of Pharisees making proselytes?

Before you hit the "post reply" button, do me a favor: read your response 5-10 times and ask yourself if it truly adds any meaningful substance to this thread or addresses the points made by those who have already refuted your fallacies.

If it doesn't - don't push the button!

 

[Hiddenthings]

I quoted you in post #357 here


3 pages back I had asked

There were two parties passing between the pieces in Genesis 15?

You are giving me the impression you see the furnace and the lamp as those particular parties involved

Ah right - the Gen 15 account is different to the "usual" practice of cutting a covenant - rather unique!

The first point is important Truly

"And when the birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, Abram drove them away"

Abram guarded the covenant victims from attack, thereby fulfilling his part of the Covenant. He kept watch over it until death claimed him.

"And when the sun was going down" This marks the end of Abram's "day" after fighting off the birds from the sacrifices which is highly symbolic of a life of obedience in resisting the flesh and gaurding the covenant.

"A deep sleep fell upon Abram" This symbolizes death.

"And, lo, a horror of great darkness fell upon him" "a horror, a great darkness" representing the fear and darkness of Sheol, the grave.

You're right in that Abram did not pass through the sacrifices, because the work of fulfilling this covenant was entirely God's, through the Lord Jesus Christ.

The symbolism of the smoking furnace and the burning lamp represents God manifesting in the flesh through the Lord Jesus Christ. In this vision, Yahweh is shown as meeting Abram "between the pieces" of the covenant victims, thus entering into covenant with him. The covenant with Abraham was ultimately confirmed in Christ (Romans 15:8), and through him, this transaction was completed and made certain. To his Apostles, Christ presented his offering as the sign of "the new covenant" in his blood. He was the covenant victim, and Yahweh was revealed in him to fulfill this purpose.

 

[quietthinker]

More of the same.

This thread contains volumes of examples from inspired texts, yet you defend your position with a Dylan song and the actions of Pharisees making proselytes?

Before you hit the "post reply" button, do me a favor: read your response 5-10 times and ask yourself if it truly adds any meaningful substance to this thread or addresses the points made by those who have already refuted your fallacies.

If it doesn't - don't push the button!

Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

 

[Muna]

Yes, I'm aware the scripture has these texts. The question I ask myself is, who is it that holds the trump card on how I am to perceive God's nature/ character?. The deciding factor is what the voice from the cloud on the Mt of Transfiguration told Peter, James and John.

Here they were, Jesus, Peter, James and John at the top of a mountain when Moses and Elijah (Law and Prophets) appeared talking with Jesus. What about? well, I don't really know but I can guess it might have been about the upcoming events in store for Jesus.
In any case, Peter was enamoured by the scene and shot his mouth off (as was his style) Matthew 17:1-6

THEN.....a voice spoke, This is my beloved Son, listen to him. ....ie, not Moses (the law) nor Elijah (the Prophets) but JESUS. (a voice, unpretentious, direct and concise) He is the one who represents me, my words, my character, my reality. Here you have God unmediated in Jesus. Jesus holds the trump card on all that has been previously mediated by men.

So I ask again, why? I conclude that even though God spoke to men in times past (Hebrews 1:1-2) Gods words were filtered through their faulty paradigms which clearly painted an inadequate picture of God. (the Prophets even have God approving and ordering genocide) So much for their faulty picture of God. (yes, men have embraced the yin/ yang God of the Persians all around the Earth....even 'the chosen' people insisted on this view. They were in error.

Looking at the examples given, if it shows God deceiving a prophet when he has spoken a thing (for example) would be considered inadequate because of this vision in the mount, wouldn't God sending anyone a strong delusion to believe a lie be equated in the same?

Or for example, the false prophet Hannaniah, similarly Peter refers back to the same among them back then here

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

And so similar to the above prophet when he had spoken a thing contrary to the former prophets we see the same

Jerem 28:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the LORD.

And then we see

Jerem 28:17 So Hananiah the prophet died the same year in the seventh month.

Of the same false prophets (which were among them) would be among you and Peter says

, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

But all of them are shown, whether in the past or after Jesus Christ

and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

 

[Muna]

Ah right - the Gen 15 account is different to the "usual" practice of cutting a covenant - rather unique!

I just wanted to see if it was possible to hear it

The first point is important Truly

"And when the birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, Abram drove them away"

What are your thoughts here in contrast

Jeremiah 7:33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.

Abram guarded the covenant victims from attack, thereby fulfilling his part of the Covenant. He kept watch over it until death claimed him.

"And when the sun was going down" This marks the end of Abram's "day" after fighting off the birds from the sacrifices which is highly symbolic of a life of obedience in resisting the flesh and gaurding the covenant.

"A deep sleep fell upon Abram" This symbolizes death.

"And, lo, a horror of great darkness fell upon him" "a horror, a great darkness" representing the fear and darkness of Sheol, the grave.

You're right in that Abram did not pass through the sacrifices, because the work of fulfilling this covenant was entirely God's, through the Lord Jesus Christ.

The symbolism of the smoking furnace and the burning lamp represents God manifesting in the flesh through the Lord Jesus Christ. In this vision, Yahweh is shown as meeting Abram "between the pieces" of the covenant victims, thus entering into covenant with him. The covenant with Abraham was ultimately confirmed in Christ (Romans 15:8), and through him, this transaction was completed and made certain. To his Apostles, Christ presented his offering as the sign of "the new covenant" in his blood. He was the covenant victim, and Yahweh was revealed in him to fulfill this purpose.

That sounds good

 

[Hiddenthings]

Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

So, you can copy and paste a verse - well done quiet.

Now if you had of gone back 9 verses in your search you would have read:

But God turned away from them and gave them over Ac 7:42.

I've highlighted it in red in the hope your dull senses can read and listen and understand.

This was an act of dramatic judgment by God - one you are in total denial about and cannot even speak of!

Israel's rejection of Moses led them to desire Egypt in their hearts (v. 40). This, in turn, led them to idolatry and the worship of the works of their own hands (v. 41). As a result, Yahweh rejected them, and national disaster followed. Since Moses was a type of the Messiah who was to come (v. 37), their rejection of Christ would inevitably lead to a similar outcome (Joshua 24:20). In a sense, this warning also served as a prophecy, which was fulfilled in that generation (AD 70).

The result of their "own hearts' lust" (Psalm 81:12; cf. Ezekiel 20:39). The "host of heaven" refers to the gods of the Gentile nations, as Stephen points out in verse 43.

He was right to do so!

 

[Hiddenthings]

I just wanted to see if it was possible to hear it


What are your thoughts here in contrast

Jeremiah 7:33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.


That sounds good

Correct — God is using covenant language and judgment for those who have abused His commandments, leading them to meet the same end as the sacrifice itself.

Revelation 19:17-18, 21 (ESV):

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,
18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."
21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

Ezekiel 39:17 (ESV):

17 "As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD: Speak to the birds of every sort and to all the beasts of the field: 'Assemble and come, gather from all around to the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you, a great feast on the mountains of Israel. And you shall eat flesh and drink blood.

Truly, men like Quiet and Steven lack understanding to the point that they cannot even engage with such texts, because their dogma undermines God's judgments, both past, present, and future.

I doubt they even knew anything about cutting a covenant or the judgements associated with this practice.

This display of their ignorance will have to end eventually. Let’s hope they come into the light, or retreat back to the dark crevices from which they emerged.

 

[quietthinker]

Looking at the examples given, if it shows God deceiving a prophet when he has spoken a thing (for example) would be considered inadequate because of this vision in the mount, wouldn't God sending anyone a strong delusion to believe a lie be equated in the same?

I don't believe God sends deceiving or lying spirits even though the scripture says he did.

1 Kings 22:21-23
Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked. “‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’ “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

However, I do believe that the voices men hear which they are persuaded are from God, has them writing stuff like this.
....further, through or in his deceptive processes, Satan has even managed to worm his influence into the scriptures. This is one of the reasons Jesus came to set the record straight.
When Jesus makes statements like, 'you have heard it said......but I say unto you.....' he is referring to the scriptures they were familiar with.
Jesus sets a totally new bench mark for understanding his Father.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Truly

"That you may eat the flesh of kings"

This speaks to a sacrificial feast, similar to the one held when a covenant was established. In such rituals, two parties would come together as one through a special ceremony, as described in Jeremiah 34:18-19.

This was the chapter and verses @quietthinker was not prepared to go, read or discuss!

In this ceremony, a sacrificial animal was divided into two parts, and the two parties, after proclaiming the terms of their agreement, would "pass between the pieces" and then partake of the sacrificial flesh.

In Rev 19:18 "the flesh of kings" symbolizes the nations ruled by kings (as referenced in verse 19), which will be overthrown by Christ's judgments. The "fowls" represent the peoples who submit to Christ's rule. These nations are called to figuratively "eat the flesh of kings," meaning they will acknowledge as just the judgments Christ will execute upon the nations. By doing so, they will vindicate his name. Acknowledging that the judgments are righteous and Christ's reign is desirable, these peoples will be incorporated into Christ's realm as mortal nations.

Those who reject him and his reign will be disciplined and ultimately destroyed.

 

[quietthinker]

I doubt they even knew anything about cutting a covenant or the judgements associated with this practice.

This display of their ignorance will have to end eventually. Let’s hope they come into the light, or retreat back to the dark crevices from which they emerged.

It is interesting you presume so much about my judgements when I haven't even commented on the Genesis 15 story of Abraham you introduced from left field, into the discussion.
.....but this is your style Hidden. You introduce a text with the assumption you can divert from the subject at hand. I do not comment and you draw erroneous conclusions of my view of this.
These processes you engage qualify you as a slippery operator with the added attempt to project your behaviour/ style onto me.

 

[Hiddenthings]

It is interesting you presume so much about my judgements when I haven't even commented on the Genesis 15 story of Abraham you introduced from left field, into the discussion.
.....but this is your style Hidden. You introduce a text with the assumption you can divert from the subject at hand. I do not comment and you draw erroneous conclusions of my view of this.
These processes you engage qualify you as a slippery operator with the added attempt to project your behaviour/ style onto me.

You lost all credibility in this thread many pages ago, Quiet. You were called out, tested, and found lacking.

"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but whoever hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1

 

[quietthinker]

You lost all credibility in this thread many pages ago, Quiet. You were called out, tested, and found lacking.

"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but whoever hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1

Another projection!
I wonder where projections originated?

 

[Jack]

I don't believe God sends deceiving or lying spirits even though the scripture says he did.

You're consistent. Why do you profess to be Christian when you reject the Bible?????

 

[Hiddenthings]

I wonder where projections originated?

From pointing out your errors and stating them plainly, you've consistently played the victim card, and you will likely continue to do so as long as you cling to your fallacies.

Your fruits are evident to everyone here, Quiet. Don't try to be slippery about it, you know your foundation is built on sand when it comes to these topics.

You can play whatever card you like, but the facts remain clear: you and Steven hold to error because you do not truly know God or His Son.

Here are the reasons why your replies have deteriorated:

• You’re using a defense mechanism to avoid the discomfort of being proven wrong and to deflect from the real issues at hand.
• You’ve shifted the discussion into emotional manipulation so you can avoid your responsibility in this thread.
• You lack confidence in the Word of God, and so you cover it by deflecting from your own inadequacies.
• You’re appealing for sympathy, but none is coming.
• You lack the ability to support and defend your position because it’s built on falsehood.
• Are you acknowledging your own cognitive dissonance? I believe so...
• Your constant deflection is simply your way of avoiding the truth about God’s balanced character, His Goodness and His Severity.

All of these and possibly more are reasons why your contribution in this thread has deteriorated and until you change your approach I doubt you will recover.

You are out of balance with the Inspired Word and your contribution to this thread is also out of balance. Until you are able to speak directly and confidently to God's Severity - you will continue to misinterpret truth for projection.