Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[covenantee]

`Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks (Gentile nations) or to the Church of God. `(1 Cor. 10: 32)

Hi Marilyn,

How do you interpret that?

 

[rwb]

Hi to you too. So when did all that happen 2,000 years ago?

The first and only first resurrection of the dead to immortal life happened when Christ was risen from the grave! It is His resurrection (the first resurrection) that mankind MUST have part by being born again to overcome the lake of fire that is the second death. All who have been born again through Christ's Spirit in us, have been made alive in Christ and have been made to partake of His first resurrection. None of mankind shall be bodily resurrected from the graves until the hour coming when the last/seventh trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer.

 

[rwb]

We agree that it is Christ life that gives us immortality. We just disagree when.

When do you think there will be a bodily resurrection to immortality?

 

[WPM]

I believe we would rather God`s word than my opinion.

1 - 11. We, the Body of Christ will not be of Adam, the old human life, earthly.

We are of the last Adam, the life-giving spirit, Christ. (1 Cor. 15: 45)

We are of the heavenly man, (1 Cor. 15: 48)

the New Man, (Eph. 2: 15)

in Christ, (Col. 3: 3)

with our citizenship in heaven, (Phil. 3: 20) and

our inheritance with Christ on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

You avoided these basic questions because Premils do not take the Scriptures literally (as they boast) when it comes to end times. They have to ignore or twist multiple literal explicit Scriptures that teach a climatic return of Jesus Christ, a general resurrection and a general judgment, and the introduction of eternity. What is more, you do not have any corroboration for your opinion of Revelation 20. That is clear to see. You force a meaning upon it that conflicts with the rest of Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Hi to you too. So when did all that happen 2,000 years ago?

Our literal physical future resurrection is not the first resurrection. It is a result of the first resurrection. But the first resurrection occurred 2000 years ago. Our spiritual resurrection upon salvation and our physical resurrection at the second coming happen because of that.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

How do you interpret that?

Yes, I probably should have said that. Thanks for asking.

`Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks (Gentile nations) or to the Church of God. `(1 Cor. 10: 32)

Jew - Israel.
Greeks - Gentile nations. (Rome took over from Greece but their language and culture continued.)
Church of God - believers in Jesus.

 

[WPM]

Yes, I probably should have said that. Thanks for asking.

`Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks (Gentile nations) or to the Church of God. `(1 Cor. 10: 32)

Jew - Israel.
Greeks - Gentile nations. (Rome took over from Greece but their language and culture continued.)
Church of God - believers in Jesus.

This reading has absolutely nothing to do with categorizing the peoples of this world into three distinct spiritual groups (as Pretribbers try to do), or is it anything to do with the second coming of Christ, or some supposed future seven-year tribulation. Rather, it is simply speaking of, and relating to, the subject of eating unto idols. This passage is in essence saying that believers must respect the eating customs of all, whether in our everyday life among the Jew and non-Jew (with their distinct customs) or whether among believers – the Church of Jesus Christ. We must eat as unto the Lord wherever we go, unless that food it is sacrificed unto idols (v28). 1 Corinthians 10:31-32 thus says, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.”

This passage separates unbelievers into two distinct groups Jews and Gentiles because they have two diametrically different systems of eating. This was the issue under discussion. That was why Paul divided the unbelievers. He is illustrating the fact that wherever you are among the brethren (the church of God) or outside among the unsaved (Jew or Gentile) “do all to the glory of God.” This passage is addressing a natural issue – albeit, it is for the purpose of outlining spiritual wisdom and truth. This reading is not suggesting or hinting at the notion that there are three types of people in God’s eyes. There isn’t! There are either saved or lost. Jews and Gentiles are found in both groups.

Therefore, to build such a major doctrine upon such a totally unrelated isolated passage is both naïve, unwise and mistaken. Notably, this is the only passage that the dispensationalists can find that identifies three groupings of people in the world. And, as we have already seen, it is nothing to do with dispensationalism, notwithstanding, they force their whole school of thought into this reading as if it will somehow prop up this carefully constructed sandcastle.

 

[Marilyn C]

When do you think there will be a bodily resurrection to immortality?

`For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order.

Christ the first-fruits, (1 Cor. 15: 23)

afterwards those who are Christ`s at His coming, (James 1: 18)

then comes the end, (a setting out to a goal), (1 Cor. 15: 25 Ps. 110: 2))

when He delivers the kingdom (rule) to God, the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (Ps. 2: 6 - 12)

For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.` (1 Cor. 15: 22 - 25 Rev. 20: 13)

So we can see it is a process covering much time.

 

[Marilyn C]

This reading has absolutely nothing to do with categorizing the peoples of this world into three distinct spiritual groups (as Pretribbers try to do), or is it anything to do with the second coming of Christ, or some supposed future seven-year tribulation. Rather, it is simply speaking of, and relating to, the subject of eating unto idols. This passage is in essence saying that believers must respect the eating customs of all, whether in our everyday life among the Jew and non-Jew (with their distinct customs) or whether among believers – the Church of Jesus Christ. We must eat as unto the Lord wherever we go, unless that food it is sacrificed unto idols (v28). 1 Corinthians 10:31-32 thus says, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.”

This passage separates unbelievers into two distinct groups Jews and Gentiles because they have two diametrically different systems of eating. This was the issue under discussion. That was why Paul divided the unbelievers. He is illustrating the fact that wherever you are among the brethren (the church of God) or outside among the unsaved (Jew or Gentile) “do all to the glory of God.” This passage is addressing a natural issue – albeit, it is for the purpose of outlining spiritual wisdom and truth. This reading is not suggesting or hinting at the notion that there are three types of people in God’s eyes. There isn’t! There are either saved or lost. Jews and Gentiles are found in both groups.

Therefore, to build such a major doctrine upon such a totally unrelated isolated passage is both naïve, unwise and mistaken. Notably, this is the only passage that the dispensationalists can find that identifies three groupings of people in the world. And, as we have already seen, it is nothing to do with dispensationalism, notwithstanding, they force their whole school of thought into this reading as if it will somehow prop up this carefully constructed sandcastle.

I agree to build a doctrine on an isolated text is wrong. However, you were NOT asking about that. You were merely asking who I thought were the 3 mentioned in God`s word. And it seems you agree.

Quote `This passage separates unbelievers into two distinct groups Jews and Gentiles.... (and) the Church of Jesus Christ...`

 

[WPM]

`For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order.

Christ the first-fruits, (1 Cor. 15: 23)

afterwards those who are Christ`s at His coming, (James 1: 18)

then comes the end, (a setting out to a goal), (1 Cor. 15: 25 Ps. 110: 2))

when He delivers the kingdom (rule) to God, the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (Ps. 2: 6 - 12)

For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.` (1 Cor. 15: 22 - 25 Rev. 20: 13)

So we can see it is a process covering much time.

This passage proves the coming of Christ is the end. It forbids Pretrib. Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

When Jesus returns it is all over. It is the end! Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the New Testament. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the “coming” (parousia) of Christ and “the end” (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma that confronts Premillennialism throughout the Word. They are fighting the sacred text.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

 

[WPM]

I agree to build a doctrine on an isolated text is wrong. However, you were NOT asking about that. You were merely asking who I thought were the 3 mentioned in God`s word. And it seems you agree.

Quote `This passage separates unbelievers into two distinct groups Jews and Gentiles.... (and) the Church of Jesus Christ...`

What has that to do with what we are talking about? Nothing! You are distracting away from the questions before you that you are avoiding like the plague because they forbid Pretrib.

 

[Marilyn C]

This passage proves the coming of Christ is the end. It forbids Pretrib. Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

When Jesus returns it is all over. It is the end! Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the New Testament. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the “coming” (parousia) of Christ and “the end” (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma that confronts Premillennialism throughout the Word. They are fighting the sacred text.

The Greek simply reads:

Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

The `end.` Greek `telos` - to set out for a definite point or goal.

 

[Marilyn C]

What has that to do with what we are talking about? Nothing! You are distracting away from the questions before you that you are avoiding like the plague because they forbid Pretrib.

If you weren`t so rude we could have a decent conversation.

 

[Marilyn C]

You avoided these basic questions because Premils do not take the Scriptures literally (as they boast) when it comes to end times. They have to ignore or twist multiple literal explicit Scriptures that teach a climatic return of Jesus Christ, a general resurrection and a general judgment, and the introduction of eternity. What is more, you do not have any corroboration for your opinion of Revelation 20. That is clear to see. You force a meaning upon it that conflicts with the rest of Scripture.

You need to prove your accusations by quoting me and showing from scripture how that is wrong. Otherwise, we are all just blowing in the wind with our accusations etc.

 

[rwb]

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order.

When are believers made alive in Christ, each one in his own order? Would you agree we (believers) are made alive in Christ; each one is his own order from the moment we are born again?

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, [made alive] who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:4-7 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened [made alive] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 

[Marilyn C]

When are believers made alive in Christ, each one in his own order? Would you agree we (believers) are made alive in Christ; each one is his own order from the moment we are born again?

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, [made alive] who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:4-7 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened [made alive] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Yes, I agree that we, the Body of Christ believers are alive in our spirits by the word of God. (Eph. 2: 1, 4 - 7) (as you said)

Then there are the Old Testament Saints who are alive in their spirits in the General Assembly, (Heb. 12: 23)

and the trib, saints, the great multitude that no one can count, (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

and the trib, martyrs. (Rev. 20: 4)

and finally those who lived according to their God-given conscience, but never knew of Christ. (Rev. 20: 11 - 15)

 

[WPM]

If you weren`t so rude we could have a decent conversation.

LOL. It is not rude to call out your avoidance. This is projection.

You duck or twist multiple explicit literal climatic Scriptures yet stubbornly hold unto what you have been taught *(that you are in capable of proving in Scripture). Why do you bother?

 

[WPM]

The `end.` Greek `telos` - to set out for a definite point or goal.

Hello! It is the end!

What is the Greek word for "the end" in the Bible?

 

[Marilyn C]

LOL. It is not rude to call out your avoidance. This is projection.

But with evidence from God`s word. Anyone can accuse or call out as you say, but it is harder to prove from God`s word for that takes `rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15) And that you need to quote scripture not your own thoughts.

You are assuming I am avoiding, when I am not aware of such. You need to quote and show where I am avoiding so I can see.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hello! It is the end!

What is the Greek word for "the end" in the Bible?

The `end.` Greek `telos` - to set out for a definite point or goal.