Reason for The Crusades explained

[Chihuahua]

Thank you for your kind words.

I would explain to the President that I’m a conscientious objector. I would neither take up arms to defend nor to attack the United States.

I pledge allegiance to the Messiah and to his government, not to any other lord or government of the world. I’ve laid down my life to him. I work as an ambassador in his majesty’s service.

You deserve it. A Christian discussion should involve I disagree with you for this that and the other and not insults and the fact that you disagreeing with me does not mean you hate Jesus and love Satan.
As a CO, would you volunteer to help others as a medic? You might be familiar with the story of Desmond Doss, turned into a movie and he refused to use a weapon. He won a Medal of Honor. I am not here to "trap" you at all. Would hellp in making things, something like producing food to help civilian and/or military allies?

 

[Matthias]

You deserve it. A Christian discussion should involve I disagree with you for this that and the other and not insults and the fact that you disagreeing with me does not mean you hate Jesus and love Satan.
As a CO, would you volunteer to help others as a medic? You might be familiar with the story of Desmond Doss, turned into a movie and he refused to use a weapon. He won a Medal of Honor. I am not here to "trap" you at all. Would hellp in making things, something like producing food to help civilian and/or military allies?

I would have to be fifty years younger to be in the position of making that kind of decision. I’m very familiar with Doss’ story.

If we accept @Wrangler’s ludicrous requirement - “you are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill” - then that wouldn’t be a valid option for a CO. If we reject it - and I call upon everyone to reject it - then that might be a valid option.

One of my college degrees is in civil engineering. A more likely scenario for me would be bridge construction, road construction, airfield construction, etc. I wouldn’t be able to do that with a clear conscience. If my involvement could be restricted to demolish of ordinance or engineering structures, I could probably do that with a clear conscience.

As a licensed pastor, the military might ask if I could serve as a chaplain. I wouldn’t be able to do that with a clear conscience. (See Father George Zabelka’s story.)

P.S.

Link to Zabelka’s story.

Blessing the Bombs

Zabelka served as a priest for the airmen who dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Zabelka died in 1992, but his message, in this speech given on the 40th anniversary of the bombings, must never be forgotten.

www.plough.com

 

[Matthias]

Aka, already committed to executive justice and give onto Caesar. You?

Remember that when you blow a fellow Christian soldier’s brains out. Remember that as you’re dying on the battlefield at the hands of a fellow Christian who thinks he’s serving God by killing you.

Think about it as the bombs you drop kill Christian and non-Christian civilians.

When Caesar asks me to do something that as follower of Messiah I cannot do - and I was in that situation a few times over the course of my thirty plus years in civil service career - the answer was, and is, no. I paid the price for obeying Messiah.

 

[Wrangler]

If we accept @Wrangler’s ludicrous requirement - “you are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill”

Ludicrous? It naturally follows from the command to buy a sword.

A recent judge issued a ludicrous ruling that POTUS can nationalize the Guard but he can’t deploy them. One implies the other.

It’s like saying,sure you can own a gun but you can’t use it under any circumstances to shoot bullets out of it at people.

 

[Wrangler]

Remember that when you blow a fellow Christian soldier’s brains out.

Not really an answer to my question. This is because you are over-spiritualized, you ignore Christ’s command to give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.

 

[Matthias]

Not really an answer to my question.

I have you a clear answer to your question. You aren’t waiting on the Messiah. I am.

I worked for Caesar for over thirty years. It was a mixture of good and evil. I was occasionally ordered to do illegal and unethical acts and I refused. Paul makes it clear that there are times when Caesar must be told no, and then be willing to patiently accept the consequences for doing it.

This is because you are over-spiritualized, you ignore Christ’s command to give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.

You’re worldly minded and you’ve concocted requirements for following Jesus that don’t exist in scripture.

Caesar orders you to kill fellow Christians and you will kill fellow Christians. I won’t.

P.S.

This may be a little over the top - an extreme comment made in another effort to persuade you that you’re on the wrong path - but when the time comes for you to march off to war, I hope it will be a Christian who thinks like you do who kills or (better) only wounds you in service to his or her nation.



Russian Christian soldiers. May you and they repent before one day coming face to face with one another on a foreign or domestic battlefield.

 

[Matthias]

Ludicrous? It naturally follows from the command to buy a sword.

A recent judge issued a ludicrous ruling that POTUS can nationalize the Guard but he can’t deploy them. One implies the other.

It’s like saying,sure you can own a gun but you can’t use it under any circumstances to shoot bullets out of it at people.

“Ludicrous” was an understatement.

 

[Matthias]

“Caesar wants Wrangler killed.“

I won’t do it. Somewhere in the world, a Christian is willing to do it.

 

[Chihuahua]

I would have to be fifty years younger to be in the position of making that kind of decision. I’m very familiar with Doss’ story.

It is a hypothetical and such things are difficult. That is why I tried presenting it as realistically as possible. You are not the President, but a brother who is being asked, given the information known at the time (which we know now) how would you react? Would your view be to inform the Japanese that our firm stance is Pacificism and we have no intension of meddling in affairs of the Pacific outside of our territories? Perhaps he agrees and wonders if the US should cease embargos and supply raw materials for their war machine.

If we accept @Wrangler’s ludicrous requirement - “you are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill” - then that wouldn’t be a valid option for a CO. If we reject it - and I call upon everyone to reject it - then that might be a valid option.

I believe I should be ready to die for Christ. It becomes an ethical and psychological issue regarding taking the life of another human being. People return from conflict realizing the people they killed were not intrinsically evil. Soldiers return home having never actually shot an enemy, only towards them. The issue is they are supporting a cause.

One of my college degrees is in civil engineering. A more likely scenario for me would be bridge construction, road construction, airfield construction, etc. I wouldn’t be able to do that with a clear conscience. If my involvement could be restricted to demolish of ordinance or engineering structures, I could probably do that with a clear conscience.

I cannot speak against following a conviction. I do not have weapons, but I believe it can be justified if other alternatives are not available.

 

[Matthias]

It is a hypothetical and such things are difficult. That is why I tried presenting it as realistically as possible. You are not the President, but a brother who is being asked, given the information known at the time (which we know now) how would you react? Would your view be to inform the Japanese that our firm stance is Pacificism and we have no intension of meddling in affairs of the Pacific outside of our territories? Perhaps he agrees and wonders if the US should cease embargos and supply raw materials for their war machine.

Government is given the power, the authority, even the responsibility - by God - to use the sword. Neither Jesus nor the apostles offered the Roman Emperors advice on what they should or should not do about the threats they faced from other nations. I wouldn’t offer the US President any advice on what he should do.

I believe I should be ready to die for Christ.

I‘m ready to die for Messiah. If @Wrangler was for some reason ordered by the government to execute all conscientious objectors on sight, he would. (None of us, in his sight, are followers of Jesus anyway.) My only request - which probably wouldn’t be honored - would be that he be given my Bible, stained with my blood, and that he glance at it once a day, every day, for the remainder of his life. He believes he could do it with a clear conscience, but my blood would be crying out to God.

It becomes an ethical and psychological issue regarding taking the life of another human being. People return from conflict realizing the people they killed were not intrinsically evil. Soldiers return home having never actually shot an enemy, only towards them. The issue is they are supporting a cause.

My cause is witnessing to my enemies. Wrangler has rightly said that killing his enemies isn’t witnessing to his enemies. His cause is unquestioningly obeying Caesar.

I cannot speak against following a conviction. I do not have weapons …

And thus by Wrangler’s standard - not your standard, not my standard, not the Messiah’s standard, not by the apostles’ standard - and for that reason, you aren’t following Jesus. For that reason you are over-spiritualized. How can you not speak out against his conviction? If he’s consistent, what he thinks about one who doesn’t go along with his standard he thinks about all who don’t go along with his standard. I don’t think it‘s likely that you could persuade him that he’s wrong but what if you could? You’ve gained him. Wouldn’t it be worth the effort to try? What if you couldn’t persuade him but you could get through to someone else who thinks like he does? You would gain that person. Wouldn’t that be worth the effort?

…, but I believe it can be justified if other alternatives are not available.

There is always an alternative available for a follower of Jesus.

 

[Chihuahua]

There is always an alternative available for a follower of Jesus.

People have found themselves in a position where there are no alternative answers. Life shows many examples of it. They did not want to harm anyone and they did not do it for their protection, but to save a life and they live with guilt despite going over and over in their head if they could have done something else. A police officer may need to kill someone and taking time off is very understandable. They cannot reconcile that they did the right thing and go into work the next day like nothing happened.

 

[Matthias]

“Peace and Violence. Jesus promised his followers the blessing of being in God’s family if they would be ‘peacemakers’ (Mt 5:9), respond non-violently to aggressors (5:38-42) and even love their enemies (5:43-48).

Luke’s Gospel has been the center of pacifistic interpretations of the Gospels. J.H. Yoder argues persuasively that both Jesus and Luke are self-consciously instructing Christian hearers / readers to adopt the pacifistic model of Jesus in contrast to the violent political options available to Jesus, his followers, the early church and modern Christians. Christians are called to be peacemakers in situations of interpersonal, national and international conflict.

Jesus’ words to his disciples to ‘buy swords’ (22:35-38) has been variously judged as ironic, symbolic and unhistorical. Given the time designations marking Jesus’ passion at the turning point (‘then … but now’), however, it probably signifies the hostility with which Jesus’ disciples will be confronted (cf. Mt 10:34-36 / Lk 12:51-53; cf. Lampe). On any reading it is clear that Jesus did not endorse his disciples’ use of their swords. …”

(Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, p. 604)

 

[Matthias]

People have found themselves in a position where there are no alternative answers.

The alternative to not resist and submit to being killed is always an alternative answer.

Life shows many examples of it. They did not want to harm anyone and they did not do it for their protection, but to save a life and they live with guilt despite going over and over in their head if they could have done something else. A police officer may need to kill someone and taking time off is very understandable. They cannot reconcile that they did the right thing and go into work the next day like nothing happened.

A police officer is an authorized agent of the government. PTSD is real.

 

[Chihuahua]

The alternative to not resist and submit to being killed is always an alternative answer.

If it involves a third party, do you get to make the choice for their life?

 

[Matthias]

@Chihuahua if I were to adopt @Wranger’s conviction, I would have no alternative but to insist that you are not following Jesus. Let’s say, for the sake of discussion, that I just now decided Wrangler is a dadgum genius and I’m now on board with him. Forget Wrangler. Now it’s just you and me and, since you aren’t armed and ready to kill, I’m informing you that you aren’t a follower of Jesus. What is your response to me?

 

[Matthias]

If it involves a third party, do you get to make the choice for their life?

If it involves a third party, does God get to make the choice for their life?

If we would blame a person who is following Jesus for what happens to someone else by a person set on harming them, then why would we not blame God?

 

[Matthias]

If it involves a third party, do you get to make the choice for their life?

What are the details in your hypothetical? What are my options?

I’ll give you one. A man with a gun concealed under his coat is walking down the street. I’m observing him as I walk toward him. Another man approaches the first man from behind and words are exchanged between them. Suddenly the first man begins running toward me and the second man draws a weapon and aims it at him. I have a pocket knife on me. What do you expect me to do?

 

[Chihuahua]

If it involves a third party, does God get to make the choice for their life?

Can God have monkeys come out my buttocks? Is that going to happen? I cannot presume doing nothing and having me and an innocent kid die is what God wanted. It is one thing to risk my life and another to allow harm to come to another because I believe God is going to supernaturally intervene instead of giving me the courage to do what He wills.

 

[Matthias]

Can God have monkeys come out my buttocks? Is that going to happen? SI cannot presume doing nothing and having me and an innocent kid die is what God wanted.

I tell you that God could have ended the threat with a word from his mouth.

Setting that aside, who said anything about doing nothing? Not me.

Can you guarantee that whatever you or I decide to do in that vague scenario that the innocent child would not die?

It is one thing to risk my life and another to allow harm to come to another because I believe God is going to supernaturally intervene instead of giving me the courage to do what He wills.

 

[Chihuahua]

What are the details in your hypothetical? What are my options?

I’ll give you one. A man with a gun concealed under his coat is walking down the street. I’m observing him as I walk toward him. Another man approaches the first man from behind and words are exchanged between them. Suddenly the first man begins running toward me and the second man draws a weapon and aims it at him. I have a pocket knife on me. What do you expect me to do?

Get out of the way as the first man has a concealed weapon. An example of a third party is being informed by radio that a crazed individual has hijacked a large vehicle and is going to a festival in a crowded downtown area, having already hit many folks walking to the area. You can get out of the area and leave it to God, or you can smash your vehicle into his, which might kill one or both of you, but saving bystanders.