What Does the Bible Really Teach About Jesus and his Relationship with his Father ?

[rebuilder 454]

When did the Jews, who believed that Jesus Christ claimed to be God, ever do the right thing in His presence?

So you couldn't hold their mistake for your own.

A couple of them did recognize who he was/is.
Watchtower never got the memo.

I also recognize Him and correctly worship Him.
So that error of not recognizing his deity is not on me.

 

[soberxp]

A couple of them did recognize who he was/is.
Watchtower never got the memo.

I also recognize Him and correctly worship Him.
So that error of not recognizing his deity is not on me.

But you just made the same mistake as the Jewish you quote in that scriptures.and his deity doesn't mean God, but sinless or Holy.

You can be sinless or y as Jesus Christ
Or you can be God?

Which one is right?

 

[Wrangler]

I hope you guys figure it out. I'll be praying that you do.

I pray you help us figure that out by remaining an active member.

I came here because I'm lonely. I was hoping to find a place where I could fellowship with others who love and revere the Lord. I came here to encourage and be encouraged.

I get it. Obviously, you want to stay out of the theology and debate forums. Frequent more the Christian life, testimonial and worship forums.

There are a lot of great members here if you give them a chance. (There are a lot of folks whose POU seems to be to be disagreeable about every little difference of opinion. You'll soon sort them out.) I have a number of people on ignore. It's a calming feature.

Philosophy of Use? That's a good one. I have no use for philosophy.

That's too bad. Philosophy is a system of thought (traditionally consisting of 5 branches - metaphysics, epistemology and logic, ethics, politics and aesthetics), a world view and everyone needs one to effectively navigate the modern world. Not enjoying debate, I can understand your aversion to philosophy.

So, what are your hobbies? Did you create a thread in the Welcome Center? That's a great way for everyone to know what your POU is without getting too deep into the details. I like reading, writing, philosophy, politics, religion, history, science, travel and spending time with my 18 grandchildren. What's China like?

What type of music do you like? Are you married? Have any children? Siblings? What brought you to Christ and how has your spiritual journey been? (perhaps you can answer these questions by starting a thread in the Welcome Center?)

 

[JesusFan]

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The JW gets away with this by inserting with NO justification, as not in the Greek text, "all other things"

 

[Aunty Jane]

JW's and Mormons are not Christians.

Who made you the judge of what it means to be a “Christian”? That is the role of the Messiah...not you or anyone else. I am sure Jesus knows exactly who belong to him and who do not.

We have the assurance that Jesus himself gave that....”No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him”. . . .“Because of this I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has allowed him to come.” (John 6:44; 65 NET)

What’s the matter...don’t you trust him? No one can “snatch” a genuine disciple of Christ out of his hand.

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (John 10:27-29 ESV)

How many hands are mentioned there?

They preach a different Christ and a different Gospel, which is no Gospel at all.

Well, that is for any serious Bible student to discover for themselves....I was raised in Christendom and never did find out exactly what the “gospel” was.....it was just a word that was often used but never really explained.
And I prayed the Lord’s Prayer every week in church without knowing what Jesus taught us to pray for....
Once I learned the meaning of the Lord’s Prayer, it was a game changer for me.

Do you somehow hope to convert them?

No, because as Jesus said, no one can come to the Son without it being granted by the Father....so what are you worried about...a good argument ? To defend your faith, you first have to know what you believe and where those beliefs originated. Do you?

And why do so many genuine Christians spend so much time debating them

Because there can be no strengthening of anyone’s faith in an echo chamber....an undefended faith is not worth having, because the devil will see that person as gullible and an easy target for deception.
Knowledge reveals falsehood.

Jesus Wept.

“Jesus wept” because others were mourning the death of his close friend Lazarus...grief is contagious.

Let me ask you...why do you think Jesus resurrected Lazarus, if he had gone to a better place?
Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him from the dead?
Did he speak of his “after death experience”?

You see, many people are curious about details, rather than broad ideas that are never well explained, so they have no real basis or solid foundation for their faith. I asked all the hard questions of my church, and no one had satisfying Scriptural answers to them.....if they had...I wouldn’t be here challenging others to strengthen their faith, or to give them food for thought in making their spiritual decisions.
It’s called “informed consent” these days.

I am sorry that you are lonely and have no ‘brethren’ to associate with....but is it your choice to live so far away from everyone...or are you stuck out there against your will?

You’ve been here 5 minutes and already we see hostility and a bad attitude. Settle in and see that you have no need to throw punches. If the debate forums upset you, stay out of them.....there is an ‘echo chamber’ here if you stick to those other forums. It’s your choice.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The JW gets away with this by inserting with NO justification, as not in the Greek text, "all other things"

Now that makes me smile.....can we see the Scripture where the awful word “other” is used?

Col 1: 15-18 NASB...
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.”

What is this telling us?
First of all that Jesus is “the image” of the God who is “invisible”....how can that be? If the invisible man stood in front of a mirror, what would he see? Being an image is a reflection of a reality, but not the reality itself.
His qualities and his character is what Jesus reflected. And then it says that he is “the firstborn of ALL CREATION”...which makes him part of that creation...the very “beginning” of it.

Then, it speaks of his role in creation. “All things were created by him and for him” and because he is “before all things” he naturally existed before anything else.
“He is the beginning”...but an eternal God had no beginning...so what is he the beginning of? Creation. (Rev 3:14)
And since creation was also “FOR” him....he participated in creating something that his God was going to give him as a gift.
He is to be the King of his Father’s Kingdom in bringing all things back into reconciliation with his Father’s first purpose for us here on this carefully and lovingly prepared planet. (Rev 21:2-4)

Then it says....”He is....the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.”
How does God “come to have first place in everything”, when he already occupies that position? This is future tense...something Jesus will attain, not that he already possessed it.

So to defend the word “other” in the NWT, it alters nothing in the context. It is clearly implied in each instance.

And here it is in the NWT...
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16  because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17  Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18  and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things”.

This passage says the same thing with or without the “other”.

This is the difference between reading the Bible and actually studying what it says...rather than what you think it says, through the lens you have been taught to see it through.

 

[Jack]

Who made you the judge of what it means to be a “Christian”?

JW's judge themselves by twisting the HELL out of nearly ever verse in the Bible that their WatchTower masters don't approve of.

From the NWT: Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER ...

JW's don't even believe their own NWT!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Who made you the judge of what it means to be a “Christian”? That is the role of the Messiah...not you or anyone else. I am sure Jesus knows exactly who belong to him and who do not.

We have the assurance that Jesus himself gave that....”No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him”. . . .“Because of this I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has allowed him to come.” (John 6:44; 65 NET)

What’s the matter...don’t you trust him? No one can “snatch” a genuine disciple of Christ out of his hand.

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (John 10:27-29 ESV)

How many hands are mentioned there?


Well, that is for any serious Bible student to discover for themselves....I was raised in Christendom and never did find out exactly what the “gospel” was.....it was just a word that was often used but never really explained.
And I prayed the Lord’s Prayer every week in church without knowing what Jesus taught us to pray for....
Once I learned the meaning of the Lord’s Prayer, it was a game changer for me.


No, because as Jesus said, no one can come to the Son without it being granted by the Father....so what are you worried about...a good argument ? To defend your faith, you first have to know what you believe and where those beliefs originated. Do you?

Because there can be no strengthening of anyone’s faith in an echo chamber....an undefended faith is not worth having, because the devil will see that person as gullible and an easy target for deception.
Knowledge reveals falsehood.

“Jesus wept” because others were mourning the death of his close friend Lazarus...grief is contagious.

Let me ask you...why do you think Jesus resurrected Lazarus, if he had gone to a better place?
Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him from the dead?
Did he speak of his “after death experience”?

You see, many people are curious about details, rather than broad ideas that are never well explained, so they have no real basis or solid foundation for their faith. I asked all the hard questions of my church, and no one had satisfying Scriptural answers to them.....if they had...I wouldn’t be here challenging others to strengthen their faith, or to give them food for thought in making their spiritual decisions.
It’s called “informed consent” these days.

I am sorry that you are lonely and have no ‘brethren’ to associate with....but is it your choice to live so far away from everyone...or are you stuck out there against your will?

You’ve been here 5 minutes and already we see hostility and a bad attitude. Settle in and see that you have no need to throw punches. If the debate forums upset you, stay out of them.....there is an ‘echo chamber’ here if you stick to those other forums. It’s your choice.

Jesus is the Judge of you.
You are not at all Christian.
You deny the testimony of Jesus.
....as does every cult.
Watchtower is a cult started by Charles Russell.
His mind conflicted with the deity of Jesus, as does every cult.
Unless you repent and line up with the word of God, you are just as lost as is everyone who denies Jesus.

In fact you actually work as an Antichrist to bring unsuspecting people down.
Horrible what you do.

The Holy Spirit works to convict those that are working against God....and us who serve and revere His word.

Since you are not inwardly convicted, it is so sad the state you are in.

Without a miracle of the Holy Spirit, you will die in your sins.
Salvation is not a game on a forum.
It is not your false doctrine for sure.
It is a person.
His name is Jesus.

The Lord and God of every born again believer.

That spirit operating in you has you 100 % deceived.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Now that makes me smile.....can we see the Scripture where the awful word “other” is used?

Col 1: 15-18 NASB...
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.”

What is this telling us?
First of all that Jesus is “the image” of the God who is “invisible”....how can that be? If the invisible man stood in front of a mirror, what would he see? Being an image is a reflection of a reality, but not the reality itself.
His qualities and his character is what Jesus reflected. And then it says that he is “the firstborn of ALL CREATION”...which makes him part of that creation...the very “beginning” of it.

Then, it speaks of his role in creation. “All things were created by him and for him” and because he is “before all things” he naturally existed before anything else.
“He is the beginning”...but an eternal God had no beginning...so what is he the beginning of? Creation. (Rev 3:14)
And since creation was also “FOR” him....he participated in creating something that his God was going to give him as a gift.
He is to be the King of his Father’s Kingdom in bringing all things back into reconciliation with his Father’s first purpose for us here on this carefully and lovingly prepared planet. (Rev 21:2-4)

Then it says....”He is....the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.”
How does God “come to have first place in everything”, when he already occupies that position? This is future tense...something Jesus will attain, not that he already possessed it.

So to defend the word “other” in the NWT, it alters nothing in the context. It is clearly implied in each instance.

And here it is in the NWT...
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16  because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17  Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18  and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things”.

This passage says the same thing with or without the “other”.

This is the difference between reading the Bible and actually studying what it says...rather than what you think it says, through the lens you have been taught to see it through.

You don't get it.
You flat out are blinded.
IT SAYS..." HE CREATED ALL THINGS ,BOTH VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE."

NOW....you say..."Jesus is a created being."

THAT MEANS YOU AND YOUR WATCHTOWER COLLEAGUES HAVE PAINTED YOURSELF INTO A CORNER.

You guys have Jesus CREATING HIMSELF.

GAME
SET
MATCH.

Your leaders have deceived you big time.

 

[rebuilder 454]

JW's judge themselves by twisting the HELL out of nearly ever verse in the Bible that their WatchTower masters don't approve of.

From the NWT: Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER ...

JW's don't even believe their own NWT!

Watchtower has the blood of millions on their hands.

It is sick what they do.

 

[rebuilder 454]

But you just made the same mistake as the Jewish you quote in that scriptures.and his deity doesn't mean God, but sinless or Holy.

You can be sinless or y as Jesus Christ
Or you can be God?

Which one is right?

If you are trying to "figure out " how the bible can not be true, then watchtower has a place for you.
I don't need to know all the dynamics.

I need to line myself up with the word of God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

But you just made the same mistake as the Jewish you quote in that scriptures.and his deity doesn't mean God, but sinless or Holy.

You can be sinless or y as Jesus Christ
Or you can be God?

Which one is right?

All ANYONE has to do, is do a study on the deity of Jesus.

That is ALL.
Just do that one study.
Play "devils advocate" and pretend we are right.
Lay aside all the doctrine of the cults.
Humor us and do your own study.

You will, once enlightened, see truth for the first time.
Jesus is EXACTLY WHO the bible says He is.

God the Son.

 

[rebuilder 454]

My apologies...I had to go places and do things.....it’s a busy life.

Let me address this now that I have some time....please remember that I am a teacher, so details are important. The Bible is a big book....but it’s one story....with one author.

The word of God was attacked by a rogue church, long before you and I were even thought of.
It doesn’t teach what the RCC said that it taught...far from it.
A foretold apostasy started in the later years of the first century and continued on in full force, once the restraining influence of the apostles was gone....just as Jesus foretold.

Where do you think all those false doctrines came from?.....Roman Catholicism......which you say you left...but you didn’t if you still accept their doctrines....have you really just adopted old lies under a new banner?.....not one of them is biblical, but can be traced back to ancient Babylon. Why did you leave the Catholic Church, David?

He is not hate filled at all...he just disagrees with the indoctrinated ”church” system and the false doctrines they teach. So do I....and with good reason.
Acknowledging that Jesus was a monotheistic Jew, (Deut 6:4) and that he and his apostles did not teach what Christendom teaches, is a hard truth to swallow....but upon studying the Bible for myself apart from widely held “church theology”, you soon find out how much of it is borrowed from paganism, and not founded on the Bible at all.

What do you think Jesus would want us to do under those circumstances, especially when he said in John 15:18-21....
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19  If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20  Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21  But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.”

Drink that in.....who are hated by a deceived world? Why was Jesus hated.....and why were his disciples persecuted? Wasn’t it because he challenged the teachings of the accepted religion of the Jews as taught by those whom Jesus declared to be frauds and hypocrites? (Matt 23)

He exposed the way they twisted God’s word, and he said that they taught man-made doctrines, and passed them off as God’s truth. (Matt 15:7-9) So the hated minority were persecuted by the arrogant and overconfident majority who put faith in their wicked leaders, rather than listen to Jesus. Can you see the parallel today? Perhaps you do not want to....?

Let’s see what the Scripture you are referring to actually says.....
What is depicted by Jehovah’s throne? Where was Jehovah’s throne originally located in the days of ancient Israel?
1 Chron 29:23....
“And they ate and drank before the Lord on that day with great gladness.
And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and they anointed him as prince for the Lord, and Zadok as priest. Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king in place of David his father. And he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.” (ESV)

Who were sitting on Jehovah’s throne in those verses?....David and his son and successor, Solomon.
Did they need to be God in order to do so?

So what does it say in Revelation Chapters 4-5?

Starting in verse 2, John sees a throne in heaven and someone is sitting on it.....it was such a magnificent sight that John had trouble describing it in human terms.
Around this throne were 24 other thrones, and on these thrones were 24 elders, dressed in white robes and they had golden crowns on their heads....these represent Chris’s elect...his co-rulers in the Kingdom of God.(Luke 22:28-30) The white robes for holiness and the crowns for rulership.

In Rev 3:21 we have something else to take into consideration....Jesus said....
“He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (NASB)

So what is this picturing about those thrones in heaven? Obviously, they picture rulership....as Christ is sitting down on his Father’s throne....as his elect will sit down with him on his throne. It is a shared rulership.
Christ rules in heaven as the appointed King of his Father’s Kingdom.....and he has co-rulers who will take up positions in the heavenly government....the one foretold by Isaiah....as the “government” that is “on the shoulders” of the “Prince of Peace”. (Isa 9:6)

In Rev 5:6, Jesus is depicted as a slaughtered lamb, in the midst of this picture....the only one worthy to open an important scroll and reveal its contents.

Verse 9 is a heavenly chorus singing a new song.....
“And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” (NASB)

Please note what was said....the lamb was worthy to open the book because his blood purchased “for God” “men from every tribe, tongue, people and nation”, to be “a Kingdom of priests to our God”.
The lamb is not God, but sits on his Father’s throne, just a Jesus’ co-rulers sit on his throne with him.

What you are describing is really not there....because there are multiple thrones depicted in this heavenly scene....all hand picked by God to bring the human race back into reconciliation with him through the legal channels he used to accomplish it. Jesus is the “mediator between God and man”.....a mediator is one who acts to reconcile two estranged parties......he therefore cannot be one of the parties.

It’s the whole Bible that tells one story and yet Christendom seems to be in a lot of confusion about a lot of things. Where does 1 Cor 1:10 fit in here?

Try to address the points raised and defend your beliefs scripturally.....what do they actually say, compared with what you wish they did?

You post "companion verses" that are ALONGSIDE THE DEITY OF JESUS SCRIPTURES.
Then think you have cast down the deity verses.

What a shame.
To have such a false concept of God and His word, hoping to muddy up The deity of Jesus.

 

[Jack]

Watchtower has the blood of millions on their hands.

It is sick what they do.

Well said!

 

[JesusFan]

Well said!

Many have died due to their false not taking blood transfusions

 

[Aunty Jane]

You don't get it.
You flat out are blinded.

This made me smile....the champion of truth riding in with his bow and arrow, himself blindly firing into thin air.....

IT SAYS..." HE CREATED ALL THINGS ,BOTH VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE."

NOW....you say..."Jesus is a created being."

If you go back and see what I actually said, I quoted the whole passage, not the few words you quoted and left the rest out....”All things came into existence THROUGH him”...I mentioned “agency” which you ignored. The Son was the first and only direct creation of his Father and then through the Son, ALL (other) things were created.
It’s you who doesn’t “get it”.

THAT MEANS YOU AND YOUR WATCHTOWER COLLEAGUES HAVE PAINTED YOURSELF INTO A CORNER.

When I studied the Bible for myself, I was already in a corner, with no Scriptural answers offered to me by my church...just empty claims that they could not back up with direct statements. JW’s painted me out of that corner by providing Scriptural answers to ALL of my questions.

Being raised in Christendom, I have been where you are....you have never been where I am....therefore your insults are formed on hear-say....not on facts.
What were the insults that Jesus faced based on?....same thing....not facts...hear-say.
The devil was never going to allow Jesus and his apostles to have public acceptance, so he used his minions to create lying propaganda against them.....and it worked! Imagine! The devil got the majority of God’s own nation to turn against him.....with what result?

Matt 27:24-25...
“Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: “I am innocent of the blood of this man. You yourselves must see to it.” 25  At that all the people said in answer: “Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.”

Is history repeating? Can the devil maintain this blindness? (2 Cor 4:3-4)

You guys have Jesus CREATING HIMSELF.
GAME
SET
MATCH.

LOL.....In your dreams.
We have no such thing...that is something created in your imagination which can obviously be easily manipulated by a divided and very fragmented church system who don’t quite know what to believe about a lot of things.....but the big three created by the Roman Catholic Church remain as the crumbling foundation for all of Christendom.

The Holy Spirit of which you speak, unites God’s people (1 Cor 1:10)....it does not divide them except to “separate the sheep from the goats”.....and we will all see the results of that judgment in the very near future.

Your leaders have deceived you big time.

What if your own church has been deceiving people for centuries....? How long has Protestantism been around? How would you know the truth if all you were ever taught were the old lies...retained and been around so long, that they are part of the furniture....unquestioned and unquestionable....?

If you actually read what I posted and what the Scripture actually says instead of your selective quoting, you would see that the Bible backs us up 100%.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This made me smile....the champion of truth riding in with his bow and arrow, himself blindly firing into thin air.....

If you go back and see what I actually said, I quoted the whole passage, not the few words you quoted and left the rest out....”All things came into existence THROUGH him”...I mentioned “agency” which you ignored. The Son was the first and only direct creation of his Father and then through the Son, ALL (other) things were created.
It’s you who doesn’t “get it”.

When I studied the Bible for myself, I was already in a corner, with no Scriptural answers offered to me by my church...just empty claims that they could not back up with direct statements. JW’s painted me out of that corner by providing Scriptural answers to ALL of my questions.

Being raised in Christendom, I have been where you are....you have never been where I am....therefore your insults are formed on hear-say....not on facts.
What were the insults that Jesus faced based on....same thing....not facts...hear-say.
The devil was never going to allow Jesus and his apostles to have public acceptance, so he used his minions to create lying propaganda against them.....and it worked! Imagine! The devil got the majority of God’s own nation to turn against him.....with wha result?

Matt 27:24-25...
“Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: “I am innocent of the blood of this man. You yourselves must see to it.” 25  At that all the people said in answer: “Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.”

Is history repeating? Can the devil maintain this blindness? (2 Cor 4:3-4)


LOL.....In your dreams.
We have no such thing...that is something created in your imagination which can obviously be easily manipulated by a divided and very fragmented church system who don’t quite know what to believe about a lot of things.....but the big three created by the Roman Catholic Church remain as the crumbling foundation for all of Christendom.

The Holy Spirit of which you speak, unites God’s people (1 Cor 1:10)....it does not divide them except to “separate the sheep from the goats”.....and we will all see the results of that judgment in the very near future.

What if your own church has been deceiving people for centuries....? How long has Protestantism been around? How would you know the truth if all you were ever taught were the old lies...retained and been around so long, that they are part of the furniture....unquestioned and unquestionable....?

If you actually read what I posted and what the Scripture actually says instead of your selective quoting, you would see that the Bible backs us up 100%.

QUOTE
Rebuilder 454 said:
IT SAYS..." HE CREATED ALL THINGS ,BOTH VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE."

Your reply
""NOW....you say..."Jesus is a created being."
If you go back and see what I actually said, I quoted the whole passage, not the few words you quoted and left the rest out....”All things came into existence THROUGH him”...I mentioned “agency” which you ignored. The Son was the first and only direct creation of his Father and then through the Son, ALL (other) things were created.
It’s you who doesn’t “get it”.""

Watchtower and you say Jesus is a created being.
You can not honestly deny it.

Then you argue that when the bible says JESUS IS THE CREATOR, you attempt to deny scripture, and get a middle ground, by saying "all things are created "through Him".

There is NO MIDDLE.
EITHER THE BIBLE IS CORRECT, OR WATCHTOWER IS CORRECT.

But no matter what, your clever diversions are on display.

Of course they were created through Him.
No brainer...I can say both.
Watchtowers "smoking gun" is a cap pistol.

No matter the extra cunning twist, you can not avoid the written word.
....at least not honestly .
A Toyota car is created by Toyota.
Toyotas are all created through Toyota.

Watchtower,
""See, see, Toyota is not the creator."
Totally insane reasoning.
But keep reasoning. It works PERFECTLY inside watchtower headquarters.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This made me smile....the champion of truth riding in with his bow and arrow, himself blindly firing into thin air.....

If you go back and see what I actually said, I quoted the whole passage, not the few words you quoted and left the rest out....”All things came into existence THROUGH him”...I mentioned “agency” which you ignored. The Son was the first and only direct creation of his Father and then through the Son, ALL (other) things were created.
It’s you who doesn’t “get it”.

When I studied the Bible for myself, I was already in a corner, with no Scriptural answers offered to me by my church...just empty claims that they could not back up with direct statements. JW’s painted me out of that corner by providing Scriptural answers to ALL of my questions.

Being raised in Christendom, I have been where you are....you have never been where I am....therefore your insults are formed on hear-say....not on facts.
What were the insults that Jesus faced based on....same thing....not facts...hear-say.
The devil was never going to allow Jesus and his apostles to have public acceptance, so he used his minions to create lying propaganda against them.....and it worked! Imagine! The devil got the majority of God’s own nation to turn against him.....with wha result?

Matt 27:24-25...
“Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: “I am innocent of the blood of this man. You yourselves must see to it.” 25  At that all the people said in answer: “Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.”

Is history repeating? Can the devil maintain this blindness? (2 Cor 4:3-4)


LOL.....In your dreams.
We have no such thing...that is something created in your imagination which can obviously be easily manipulated by a divided and very fragmented church system who don’t quite know what to believe about a lot of things.....but the big three created by the Roman Catholic Church remain as the crumbling foundation for all of Christendom.

The Holy Spirit of which you speak, unites God’s people (1 Cor 1:10)....it does not divide them except to “separate the sheep from the goats”.....and we will all see the results of that judgment in the very near future.

What if your own church has been deceiving people for centuries....? How long has Protestantism been around? How would you know the truth if all you were ever taught were the old lies...retained and been around so long, that they are part of the furniture....unquestioned and unquestionable....?

If you actually read what I posted and what the Scripture actually says instead of your selective quoting, you would see that the Bible backs us up 100%.

Is Jesus created?
Yes?
No?
Don't pretend. Answer honestly.

If yes...( 100% watchtower position)
Then....YOUR BIBLE (not mine) MUST REFAME every deity verse declaring the deity of Jesus.
Watchtower has perfected that soft shoe dance and smokescreen.
"Perfected it"!!!
Ahem..to anyone NOT doing due diligence.

You claim to do your own study and miraculously ending up in the same errors.
No, they got ahold of you and duped you into that antichrist spirit.

But there is hope for every watchtower.
There is a Jesus coming on a white horse holding a bow.
He fits watchtower model perfect.
He is a created being

A created JESUS!!!!!
AND THE ENTIRE PLANET FOLLOWS HIM!!!
Watchtower dream!!!
The entire planet in your same religion!!!!

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you go back and see what I actually said, I quoted the whole passage, not the few words you quoted and left the rest out....”All things came into existence THROUGH him”...I mentioned “agency” which you ignored. The Son was the first and only direct creation of his Father and then through the Son, ALL (other) things were created.”

It’s you who doesn’t “get it”.""

Perhaps if you actually read what I actually said, and the Scriptural support for my statement, you would see what the Bible says, not what I said.

Watchtower and you say Jesus is a created being.
You can not honestly deny it.

Why would I deny what the Bible clearly states?

This is Jesus speaking, conveying the Revelation which was given to him by his God....and conveyed to an angel who then revealed it to John. (Rev 1:1)

Rev 3:14 ESV...
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.”

NASB...”
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:”

NKJV...
“And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:”

So these are clear statements and not a NWT in sight....
Can you provide a clear unequivocal statement from either Yahweh or his Son that they are part of a triune god with the Holy Spirit? I will wait with anticipation....

Then you argue that when the bible says JESUS IS THE CREATOR, you attempt to deny scripture, and get a middle ground, by saying "all things are created "through Him".

Nowhere does the Bible call Jesus “The Creator”.....him being the agency used by his Father in creation does not make him The Creator.

There is NO MIDDLE.
EITHER THE BIBLE IS CORRECT, OR WATCHTOWER IS CORRECT.

But no matter what, your clever diversions are on display.

Since the Watchtower is a magazine, I don’t recall it ever discussing the “middle” that you are suggesting.

The “diversions” are not clever...they are the truth, as anyone is free to see for themselves.

Of course they were created through Him.
No brainer...I can say both.
Watchtowers "smoking gun" is a cap pistol.

I have a sneaking suspicion that your own cap pistol is firing blanks....

No matter the extra cunning twist, you can not avoid the written word.
....at least not honestly .
A Toyota car is created by Toyota.
Toyotas are all created through Toyota.

What an interesting analogy....what a shame it fails to present anything close to biblical facts.

A Toyota is a motor vehicle created by the company who manufactures them.....but there are individuals who work on an assembly line who work for the company...the ones “through” whom the vehicles are made.
Can you see the flaw in your own analogy? Probably not....

Not all Toyota’s are the same model....but the same process creates them all.
I happen to drive a Rav 4....an awesome vehicle I have to say...

Watchtower,
""See, see, Toyota is not the creator."
Totally insane reasoning.
But keep reasoning. It works PERFECTLY inside watchtower headquarters.

LOL...Toyota is the creator of all its motor vehicles.....they are designed and manufactured to the company’s specifications and direction.....just as Jesus ‘manufactured’ all creation with “The Creator’s” specifications and under his direction.

 

[ReChoired]

@Aunty Jane, are you still around to have some discussion?