A Challenge

[Brakelite]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.


Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my first question is..... And yes it's rhetorical...

When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place.
Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And the entire OT terrified to this without exception, right from the Garden of Eden. And there are scores of scriptures in the NT that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 2:14,15; 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 1:18; 5:9

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1. Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2. Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3. Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a. Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity, and are therefore given immortality, being tortured in hell?

b. If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c. If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life, and granted as a gift (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive the gift of eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d. And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

 

[quietthinker]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.


Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my first question is..... And yes it's rhetorical...

When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place.
Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And the entire OT terrified to this without exception, right from the Garden of Eden. And there are scores of scriptures in the NT that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 2:14,15; 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 1:18; 5:9

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1. Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2. Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3. Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a. Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity, and are therefore given immortality, being tortured in hell?

b. If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c. If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life, and granted as a gift (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive the gift of eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d. And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

What if I have a terrible memory for scripture, are my replies/ answers/ myself disqualified/ not valid?

 

[JustMe]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.


Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my first question is..... And yes it's rhetorical...

When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place.
Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And the entire OT terrified to this without exception, right from the Garden of Eden. And there are scores of scriptures in the NT that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 2:14,15; 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 1:18; 5:9

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1. Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2. Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3. Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a. Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity, and are therefore given immortality, being tortured in hell?

b. If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c. If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life, and granted as a gift (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive the gift of eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d. And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

Start off with a., just to get things rolling

Immortality is not an inherent quality of human beings but a gift granted only to those who have faith in Jesus Christ, and then only upon their own resurrection into glory. There is no undefined or infinite period of time to torture those in unbelief.

Most people who think otherwise do not search the scripture for truth. They are the lukewarm believers, the one day, the Saturday or Sunday 'worshippers IMO.

 

[Brakelite]

What if I have a terrible memory for scripture, are my replies/ answers/opinions myself disqualified/ not valid?

Well, no. I listen to people's opinions. If they are away off base as far as Scripture is concerned, I can always remind you. But I would also be interested from whence your opinions came. How did they form? What influences were there that you came to your conclusions?
As for the topic of the thread, it's a challenge to validate current thinking with Scripture. Is that possible do you think?

 

[Brakelite]

There is no undefined or infinite period of time to torture those in unbelief.

“47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. ”
Luke 12:47-48 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

A metaphorical picture of punishment. Whoever the unrepentant sinner may be, from Satan himself to the 15yo gang affiliate killed in a drive by, eternal torment for both makes no logical, spiritual, or practical sense whatsoever. Jesus in the above analogy, puts to rest any argument in its favor.

 

[MatthewG]

Condensed Version of Your Challenge
Scripture affirms that Christ’s death was a full and final payment for sin.
• We were redeemed “with the precious blood of Christ” (1 Pet. 1:18–19).
• He bore our sins in His body on the tree (1 Pet. 2:24).
• Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust (1 Pet. 3:18).
• Christ died for our sins… was buried… and rose again (1 Cor. 15:3–4).
• Additional supporting passages: Rom. 3:25–26; 5:8–9; 6:10; Col. 1:20–22; Heb. 9:15–22.
From these Scriptures, three core principles follow:
1. Death is the just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23).
2. Christ paid that penalty fully through His death and shed blood.
3. Those who reject this atonement must bear the penalty themselves.

Your Questions (Condensed)
Given that Scripture teaches Christ paid the full penalty for sin through death:
a.
Why do many churches teach that the wicked do not die, but instead live forever in conscious torment—thus receiving immortality?

The bible says that people are outside the gates. I dont think they are being tortured and I believe they are fine with where they are at.

b.
If eternal torment is the true penalty for sin, why did Jesus not pay that penalty, since Scripture says He paid the full price?

He did pay the full price.

c.
If eternal life is the gift given only to believers (John 3:16, 36; Rom. 6:23), why do many churches teach that the wicked also receive eternal life—just in misery?

I believe that would be because Jesus said even the corrupt will be risen again, but I dont think they are in misery. I think they are fine where they are at outside the gate.

d.
If eternal torment is the real penalty for sin, then Christ did not pay that penalty, which would mean the gospel fails and all—saved and unsaved—must suffer eternally

Dont understand this question just sounds rhetorical.

 

[MatthewG]

Torture doesn't always mean on a board and being strectched out either...

People can be tortured by their own thoughts and ways.

Remember the man cutting himself in the graveyard, and seen Jesus and had a turn around, only because of Jesus himself healing him.

That still happens today I think, where people are tortured by their own selves, and they come to Jesus...

All individually.

 

[Brakelite]

The bible says that people are outside the gates. I dont think they are being tortured and I believe they are fine with where they are at.

Indeed, the Bible does state that outside the gates to the New Jerusalem the many who refused to receive and believe in Christ, would gather. The intent with which they surround the city is to forcibly take the throne. The result? Fire comes down out of the sky and destroys them. This is the lake of fire which also destroys everything on the surface of the earth in preparation for is recreation. Those wicked people die Matthew. They are destroyed. They are not immortal.

I believe that would be because Jesus said even the corrupt will be risen again, but I dont think they are in misery. I think they are fine where they are at outside the gate.

See above.

If eternal torment is the real penalty for sin, then Christ did not pay that penalty, which would mean the gospel fails and all—saved and unsaved—must suffer eternally

Dont understand this question just sounds rhetorical.

The popular belief is eternal torment for sinners as their just punishment. Jesus did not suffer in torment for eternity. Yet we agree that Jesus paid the full price for our redemption. Therefore eternal torment is not on the table as Christian truth. It's a lie. And it began when Satan deceived Eve telling her that sinners won't die. The pagan belief of natural immortality for all mankind began with that lie, and was adopted by the Christian Church in the dark ages.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have a challenge. Please read carefully the following, and then answer the concluding questions using Scripture only as the basis for your answers.


Peter 1:18,19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2:24,25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls
3:18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

In light of the above scriptures, and many more such besides,(Rom. 3:25,26. 5:8,9. 6:10. Colossians 1:20-22. Heb. 9:15,16,22.) my first question is..... And yes it's rhetorical...

When Jesus died upon the cross of Calvary, was this act a full and final settlement of the debt we owe due to our sin? In other words, has the full redemption price been paid, and what was that price?

Okay, that the full and final redemption price has been paid on behalf of a lost race would be disputed by few who know their Bibles. That Jesus paid the price, taking upon Himself the full punishment that was rightly due sinful man, is the great central theme of the gospel, in fact, all of scripture. It is called by many names. Redemption. Atonement. Salvation. Vicarius sacrifice. Propitiation. They all mean one and the same thing. That the just died for the unust. The sinless for the sinner. Christ died in our place.
Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. “With His stripes we are healed.” The punishment and full penalty that belonged justly and rightly to us, was laid upon Christ. He died that we might live. Very few would dare to argue with this most profound and fundamental of Biblical truths. And the entire OT terrified to this without exception, right from the Garden of Eden. And there are scores of scriptures in the NT that verify and support this most wonderful doctrine.
Romans 3:25,26; 5:8,9; 6:10.
Colossians 1:20-22.
Hebrews 2:14,15; 9:15,22.
1 Peter 1:18,19; 2:24; 3:18.
Revelation 1:18; 5:9

These are but a small selection but enough to deduce the following basic principles inherent in the atonement.

1. Because death is the due and just penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23), death therefore was the redemptive price.
2. Jesus, through the shedding of His own blood and His vicarius death upon the cross, paid that price in full.
3. Those who for whatever reason reject the offer of forgiveness inherent in the atonement, and thus are not included in the number of the redeemed, must pay the price themselves.

If the above be true, I have a number of questions.
a. Why is it that the majority of Christian churches today teach that men who die in their sins do not die, but live for all eternity, and are therefore given immortality, being tortured in hell?

b. If it be true that eternal torment is the just penalty for sin, then why did Jesus not pay it?

c. If the reward for those who do accept the gospel is eternal life, and granted as a gift (John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23) and no churches deny this, why do those same churches insist that the wicked also receive the gift of eternal life, which is denied by the very same scriptures?(John 3:16,36; Rom. 6:23)

d. And finally, if eternal torment is the just penalty for sin as most contend, we must logically conclude that because Jesus did not pay that price, then the gospel is a sham and we all, both Christian and pagan alike, are doomed to spend eternity suffering together.

Yeshua paid the price of sin.....thereby removing us from the Old Testament system of sin and tally. No redemption for sin the Old Testament.

Yeshua redeemed us from the Old Testament sin. When He "died" on the cross the veil in the temple was torn in two. Sin no longer separated us from Yahweh and we could have a relationship with Him. For those that believe in Him sin is between us and Yeshua and if we ask He forgives us of our sins. Grace perfects us from Yahweh's perspective.

Yeshua paid the price for sin and in doing so took authority over it.

 

[JustMe]

“47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. ”
Luke 12:47-48 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

A metaphorical picture of punishment. Whoever the unrepentant sinner may be, from Satan himself to the 15yo gang affiliate killed in a drive by, eternal torment for both makes no logical, spiritual, or practical sense whatsoever. Jesus in the above analogy, puts to rest any argument in its favor.

Hear, hear, Brakelite's Parliamentary voice is in session...

 

[Brakelite]

Yeshua paid the price of sin.....thereby removing us from the Old Testament system of sin and tally. No redemption for sin the Old Testament.

Yeshua redeemed us from the Old Testament sin. When He "died" on the cross the veil in the temple was torn in two. Sin no longer separated us from Yahweh and we could have a relationship with Him. For those that believe in Him sin is between us and Yeshua and if we ask He forgives us of our sins. Grace perfects us from Yahweh's perspective.

Yeshua paid the price for sin and in doing so took authority over it.

Agree. And what was that price?

 

[MatthewG]

Indeed, the Bible does state that outside the gates to the New Jerusalem the many who refused to receive and believe in Christ, would gather. The intent with which they surround the city is to forcibly take the throne. The result? Fire comes down out of the sky and destroys them. This is the lake of fire which also destroys everything on the surface of the earth in preparation for is recreation. Those wicked people die Matthew. They are destroyed. They are not immortal.

See above.

The popular belief is eternal torment for sinners as their just punishment. Jesus did not suffer in torment for eternity. Yet we agree that Jesus paid the full price for our redemption. Therefore eternal torment is not on the table as Christian truth. It's a lie. And it began when Satan deceived Eve telling her that sinners won't die. The pagan belief of natural immortality for all mankind began with that lie, and was adopted by the Christian Church in the dark ages.

All people die silly. But God gave people a soul to live by. Just as their was paradise and the separate part, so there is in heavenly realms.

So the argument of if the soul is eternal. I do believe it so cause God gave it, and will raise good and bad.

At least in my opinion.

 

[Brakelite]

Hear, hear, Brakelite's Parliamentary voice is in session...

Ummm...okay,I think?

 

[MatthewG]

One thing I will say too @Brakelite, there are so many people who are believers today wanting to get rid of all the darkness and evil in the world today - but God himself has allowed everything to be as it is. Im not someone who is looking forward to a new earth as I believe we are already on it but those who want this so bad, do not even realize they have evil in their own self they cant get rid of and need the help of Jesus.

Thats why I included that guy who wsa in the graveyard cutting himself and came to Jesus and was healed - however that doesn't mean we do not still wrestle around with our own selves.

 

[Grailhunter]

Agree. And what was that price?

He served as the perfect sacrifice.

 

[Brakelite]

All people die silly. But God gave people a soul to live by. Just as their was paradise and the separate part, so there is in heavenly realms.

At least in my opinion.

Not everyone died in the past, and not everyone will die in the future. But you are correct generally, "everyone" dies. And, everyone is resurrected. Some to life eternal, some to condemnation for whom the second death awaits. Jesus saved us from that second death. It was the second death that He took upon Himself in our place. The second death is a death without hope of a resurrection. Once dead, always dead. To borrow a term. And that isn't a death with awareness or feeling or emotion or any consciousness. It's the opposite to life. Hopeless oblivion and eventual destruction. It isn't a state of being where "they are fine with where they are at".

 

[Brakelite]

He served as the perfect sacrifice.

Amen. The redemption price was death...the wages of sin. Would you agree that those who do not accept by faith the redemption offered through Christ, they will have to pay the price themselves?

 

[MatthewG]

Not everyone died in the past, and not everyone will die in the future. But you are correct generally, "everyone" dies. And, everyone is resurrected. Some to life eternal, some to condemnation for whom the second death awaits. Jesus saved us from that second death. It was the second death that He took upon Himself in our place. The second death is a death without hope of a resurrection. Once dead, always dead. To borrow a term. And that isn't a death with awareness or feeling or emotion or any consciousness. It's the opposite to life. Hopeless oblivion and eventual destruction. It isn't a state of being where "they are fine with where they are at".

Oh what you are talking about is people who walk around who are spiritually dead. Well even so, God will raise them up to.

All you have to do is just share me this on question "What do you believe happens to a non-believer when the die?"

Typical answer they are done away with forever. Thank you for conversation, it is early in the morning and i dont want to bombard you.

I still believe people are living outside the gates in the heavenly realm as the bible proclaims, where God doesn't reside out there but he is constantly calling by the spirit or so the bible proclaims anyway.

 

[Brakelite]

One thing I will say too @Brakelite, there are so many people who are believers today wanting to get rid of all the darkness and evil in the world today - but God himself has allowed everything to be as it is.

So when you pass by someone who is homeless and hungry, does your belief that this was God's intention, absolve you from giving what you can to help him out?

 

[MatthewG]

So when you pass by someone who is homeless and hungry, does your belief that this was God's intention, absolve you from giving what you can to help him out?

Is your question just to judge me? What did Jesus say about the poor? You remember. They will always be with you...

Some people want to be homeless by intention. Some people want to get out of their situation. Does that mean I need to give 20$ to the person on the street... and I am struggling to pay my own bills... I don't believe I do... no sir.

But that judgement if you say well matthew that is not the christian way, I would just roll my eyes and scoff at that reply.