Reason for The Crusades explained

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Wrangler

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In theory, possibly. In practice God also protects and defend his people by killing their enemies - and he's had this done MANY times. This is why you ignore verses like 1 Samuel 15:3 put to death men and women, children and infants
No response to your false idea being refuted that God only protects without killing? Not surprising.

Why let facts get in the way of a narrative!
 

Matthias

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Your taking Scripture out of practical context of today …

The teachings of Jesus and the apostles are practical today.

- and disregarding Scripture that does talk about today.

I don’t disregard any scripture.

I'm talking about justice HERE AND NOW by human hands and I'm sure you know that.

I’ve already pointed out that the earliest followers of Jesus did not follow your teaching and they did do justice.

Scripture commands US to do justice. Being overly-spiritualized, you keep pretending it is not our job in any way.
1 Corinthians 6:3
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
 

Matthias

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No response to your false idea being refuted that God only protects without killing? Not surprising.

Why let facts get in the way of a narrative!

It isn’t, and never has been, my idea that God only protects without killing. It’s who he uses to do the killing that is the issue.
 

Matthias

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Like buy a sword and give to Caesar what is Caesars.

Jesus did not command his followers to buy a sword and fight against Caesar. Jesus did not command his disciples to buy a sword and fight for Caesar.

The crusaders were fighting for the pope and the Catholic Church. Jesus did not command his followers to fight for the pope and the Catholic Church.
 
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JustMe

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The Crusades should invoke the sense of glorious Christian times when men were men and defended their keep. Regarding the depths of human depravity, you should feel profound pride that with Christians, this is the exception. With the Jihadi's, this remains the rule to this very day.


The opposite is true. Those calling themselves Christian of these evil groups WHO REFUSE TO DO THE NEEDFUL ACTS FOR JUSTICE HERE AND NOW, are not truly Christian in spirit, only in name for they are over-spiritualized.
I understand that you lack enough information to make that judgment in your initial statement. I view this from the perspective of fallen human nature. I think it is wishful thinking on your part to believe there was a clear victory in the end, like riding off into the sunset; something resembling a fictional movie, such as the Lone Ranger and Tonto. These films only perpetuate a false idea of what a Christian is supposed to be, similar to a Hollywood-produced reenactment of the Crusades on stage.

We know very little about those who call for a Jihad. Most people were unaware of them until the US popularized this term about 50 years ago, using it as a dog whistle to justify war without cause. I do not accept this at all. Most of these individuals are peaceful. Many of those you see on TV are actually supported and aided by Western powers.

One must truly understand how the spirit guides someone during times of war and crisis. It is not the collective work of the Spirit to gather Christian soldiers for earthly battles. In my view, most participants in the Crusades were not genuinely Christian.

The spirit of God would not endorse warfare on the scale of the Crusades. As a Christian, I accept this as truth. It is only the world, with its arrogance and ego, that drives itself into senseless wars. This differs from the Old Testament, where God directly commanded open warfare and aggression.

What exactly do you mean by "when men were men"? Are you including genuine Christians in that?

There are seldom truly just wars when human nature is unreliable and always questionable, whether Christian or not. These words and statements become contradictory.
 

Wrangler

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It isn’t, and never has been, my idea that God only protects without killing. It’s who he uses to do the killing that is the issue.
Agh ha. Moving the goal posts. Who did God use in 1 Samuel 15:3 put to death men and women, children and infants?
 

Matthias

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Agh ha. Moving the goal posts.

No. The followers of Jesus don’t live like the people lived in the OT. “You have heard it said, but I say to you …”

Who did God use in 1 Samuel 15:3 put to death men and women, children and infants?

How many “men and women, children and infants” have you put to death? Out of that number, how many of them were followers of Jesus?
 

Aunty Jane

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Again with the enslaved mindset. Why do you keep ignoring there where the Lord is, there is freedom, 2 Corinthians 3:17?

Plus, there is plenty of sanction detailed in Scripture as summarized by these posts. You're just in denial.
LOL....well one of us is..... :no reply:

What is the Scripture you use for your defence?
Let’s see....

Wrangler said:
This question reveals you have not read or understood Scripture at all. Ever read my signature?
  1. He trains my hands for war. 2 Samuel 22:35
    • Do you suppose this training has no practical application? That God trains us to do a thing only for us NOT to do that thing?
  2. Ex 5:3 Yahweh is a man of war; Yahweh is his name.
  3. We are made in Gods image. Ge 1:27
    • Just who do you suppose we - being made in God' image, a man of war - should war against, if not our brothers and sisters that live in another Nation?
  4. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. 1 Samuel 15:3
    • I look forward to the over-spiritualized engaging in mental gymnastics and rationalizations on this one.
  5. Conquest of Canaan. Joshua 1:1-6
  6. And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. 1 Kings 22:20
Please tell me what those Scriptures meant to a Jew, living in the Promised Land, compared to Christians living in the whole world?
You should be Jewish, Wrangler....you were apparently born in the wrong era....those days of violence and war are well and truly over for worshippers of the true God in this time of the end, and for those who are disciples of “the Prince of Peace”.
Wrangler said:
Many do not grasp why Jesus is NOT called the king of peace. A prince is in the waiting, his power yet to be In full effect. Christ's ministry is to show us a better way that is yet to come, which explains why he said the Kingdom of God is near, i.e., not here yet. And also why his 2nd Coming will began by Jesus waging war and defeating his enemies. In the meantime, we war. Pay attention his story, history, our story is the story of war.

You ignore the fact that Jesus has no human soldiers in his military force.....the only ones doing the fighting are angels, authorized by God for one final war with the devil and all who have been fooled into following his violent ways. The end for all of them is elimination from existence. They have betrayed the Prince of Peace by continuing to make war. Violence is not part of the Christian personality.

In spite of all that you have been shown as regards the conduct of a mature Christian, you insist that your misapplication of Scripture is correct....I assure you, it isn’t....but you are sold on your love of violence and nothing will apparently dissuade you. That is on you.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Wrangler said:
I look forward to my prayers being answered in reading your honest answers to these questions tomorrow:

Let’s take them one at a time......
  1. What are the reasons FOR the Crusades?
Regardless of the reasons, no genuine Christian would have participated in that disgraceful violence. It shows the poor state of the Christian Faith in the hands of the Roman Catholic church, who ignored all the teachings of the Christ and his apostles....becoming exactly what their enemies were.

  1. What is your primary objection to the Crusades?
Christians are told not to “return evil for evil to anyone”.....who were the perpetrators of the evil and who responded with an equal level of evil. (Romans 12:17-21) How does that make the crusaders any better than their enemies?
  1. If attending to soulful, worldly and fleshy needs is inherently sinful, why is the Sabbath only 1 day/week?
Christians are not commanded to observe a Sabbath...that was exclusively for Jews. The majority of Christians are Gentiles.
  1. What are we supposed to do the other 6 days of the week if only one day is reserved exclusively for spiritual matters?
Are you serious? You mean that the Sabbath alone was the only day for spiritual matters? We are to serve our God every day of the week and because there is no longer a Sabbath....every day is an appropriate day to worship the true God...how many days of the week did Jesus and his apostles serve their God, even as Jews?
  1. Why do you not accuse Christ of having in his heart to kill people but do accuse me?
Jesus is authorized to take life at his Father’s command, as are his angelic forces. Just as the executioners in Israel were not guilty of murder because God’s law demanded the death penalty for certain crimes....what you are missing, as I have already mentioned, is “authorisation”. You have no sanction from God to take a life, regardless of the reason.
  1. Is following Jesus commands to buy a sword (with the intent to use it for its intended purpose) and give to government what is the government sinful?
You still harp on about the swords as if that justifies you using one (or whatever you may substitute) ....Jesus never intended for them to be used....as the account shows us. Peter was reprimanded for doing so. Two swords against an armed mob would have been suicide! Jesus said it was to fulfill prophesy about him being among lawless ones. To the Jews, they were.
  1. If killing people is inherently sinful, why did God command us to do justice, which always included killing people? See God’s judgement throughout the OT and Christ at Rev 19.
Again you fail to separate “Christians” from “the world”. God allows the authorities that govern the nations to do as they wish, and implement laws that have the death penalty...you fail to see that we are NOT to be part of what they do. We are separated from the world by the principles that Jesus gave us, and telling us in no uncertain terms to be “NO PART OF THE WORLD”.....if you are part of the world, you have no place with the true God...you are following the god of this world, who has the power to “blind” people. (2 Cor 4:3-4)
  1. If killing people is inherently sinful, why is murder prohibited in the 10C while killing is not prohibited?
For the simple reason that the death penalty administered under law is not murder. God gave permission to “the world” to carry out its own laws, and as we see, all nations don’t have the same penalties for crimes.
Some nations have the death penalty for crimes considered petty in others.
  1. If killing people is inherently sinful, why is it the first order of business upon Christ’s return?
Again it is his “authorisation” and the fact that no humans are involved in his military actions.
He is carrying out the will of his Father, under his instructions. God alone has the sole authority over life and death. He is the one who authorizes the death penalty in the nations whose political activities, we are to be no part of.
  1. If killing people is inherently sinful, why will Christ ultimately condemn many to death in The Lake of Fire on Judgment Day, aka The Second Death?
Because the “lake of fire” is the death penalty.....the “second death” is a permanent one, as opposed to Adamic death which we all inherited from the sin of Adam. Jesus came to rescue us from the death that we don’t have any choice about....the “second death” is merited from one’s own behaviour in disobedience to God and his Christ. This is what you are not seeing. The Crusades were nothing to do with God, but were fought among those who were disobeying him.....shedding blood without his sanction. Both sides equally guilty for committing the same atrocities. (Isa 1:15)

You really have a very skewed view of things Wrangler.....I hope you can take off the glasses that are giving you a completely wrong impression of what we as Christians must demonstrate in our lives.....we are to “conquer the evil with good”. It appears that you have no concept of the victory that lies in that stance. We are then not conquered by the evil unless we become evil ourselves. The real challenge is no retaliation....allowing God to do what he said he will...vengeance belongs to him...not us.

It’s simply not our job. And we can trust that God himself will repay all the injustice. Can you do that?
 
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Aunty Jane

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Western nations were actually threatened and currently are under the threat of communism right now
And there is another trigger word....”communism”....what do you really know about communism Big Boy?

It is a word that the west was taught to hate, but it was a great idea in theory.

As the name suggests, it is the community serving the community on equal footing. All the workers were to contribute their labors to the common good so that everyone was equal....no one went without and it eliminated the separation between the rich advantaged and the poor disadvantaged. Everyone got the same. A really fair system on paper.

Just as the first Christians were taught to share what they had with their brothers and sisters, so communism was working for the good of all in their community.....but do you know why it didn’t work in operation? Flawed human nature. The harder workers were putting in all the effort but the lazy ones contributed little but still got the same rewards. This was an unfair system for some but a terrific system for others....because of that, it was doomed to fail, just as democracy is collapsing in the west.....for all the same reasons. If you give sinful humans a process that they can abuse to their own advantage...they will.

The issue is not what “brand” of human rulership a nation chooses, but that ANY kind of human invention in this world is doomed to fail because flawed humans are running the show and power corrupts us.

Tell us what government on earth is free of corruption? Tell us what government has ever successfully catered to the needs of all in their nations? What nation has had genuine peace and security?

The divide has always been between the rich and the poor.....with the rich exploiting the poor for a profit that they seldom share fairly with their hardest workers....this creates a “slave and master” system that goes way back in history.

What is sad, is when the slaves have no idea that they are slaves to a system where greed knows no bounds and scruples do not exist. They do all the work and their masters get all the profit.
 
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Wrangler

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No. The followers of Jesus don’t live like the people lived in the OT.
1st, yes, you are moving the goalposts. You asked for Scripture, the restrict answers you’ll accept to NT - AS IF I haven’t already provided many verses.

2nd, people live today the way they always did in terms of morals. For instance, I know a guy whose a cowardly pacifist while thinking he’s morally superior.
 

Matthias

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You asked for Scripture, the restrict answers you’ll accept to NT - AS IF I haven’t already provided many verses.

We have been speaking about what Jesus commands his followers. Right?
 

Wrangler

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No one.

Who did Jesus, the apostles and the earliest followers of Jesus fight and kill with swords?

No one.
I see. Moving the goal posts again. 1st, you speak in the negative, who Jesus did not command to fight with a sword.

This begs the question I asked, then who. Now you say no one. This goes back to your implication that Jesus told his supporters to buy a sword for no application. You affirm in theory but deny in practice.

Theres a time to kill - except in practice.