A recent session I had with Chatgpt pertaining to some of the Discourse

[covenantee]

I believe the reason Christ warned them of the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple

Christ plainly tells them all the things of Old that represent the Old Covenant through Law and Prophets of Old will perish with the Old city and temple would be utterly destroyed.

The literal destruction of the city and temple of Old came as judgment and wrath of God in 70 AD just as Christ said the Kingdom of God would be taken from them. The Olivet Discourse though making mention of the physical destruction

@TribulationSigns denies all of that.

 

[TribulationSigns]

@TribulationSigns denies all of that.

Thank you! Amen!

 

[rwb]

@TribulationSigns denies all of that.

He doesn't deny it, rather he believes Christ uses familiar literal objects that must be discerned through spiritual fulfillment.

 

[covenantee]

He doesn't deny it, rather he believes Christ uses familiar literal objects that must be discerned through spiritual fulfillment.

He agrees in post 102 that he denies them. Thus he denies that the Olivet discourse spoke of a literal temple, literal Judaean Christians, a literal invasion by literal Roman armies, the literal destruction of literal Jerusalem, et al.

In short, he believes that it spoke of nothing literal.

Classic cultic gnosticism.

How do you not recognize that?

Thankfully, the literal Judaean Christians were not cultic gnostics. They literally heeded Jesus' literal warnings, literally escaped the literal Roman invasion, and literally survived.

 

[TribulationSigns]

He agrees in post 102 that he denies them. Thus he denies that the Olivet discourse spoke of a literal temple, literal Judaean Christians, a literal invasion by literal Roman armies, the literal destruction of literal Jerusalem, et al.

Amen! And according to Christ's Word, it is TRUE.

Classic cultic gnosticism.

Crying “gnosticism” is a convenient smear when you cannot answer the Scriptures presented. God’s Word is not the problem—your inability to discern it is. “Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not?” (Mark 8:18, KJV).

You are falsely equating biblical spiritual discernment with first-century gnosticism. My teaching is not derived from secret or mystical knowledge, but from truth openly revealed in Scripture, made understandable by the Holy Spirit. “God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit” (1 Corinthians 2:10).

There is no “hidden knowledge” here. Biblical truth is public, written, and testable—“Search the scriptures” (John 5:39). I did not invent this truth; I recognized what God has already revealed and confirmed it by comparing Scripture with Scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13).

Your accusation of gnosticism collapses under its own weight, because gnosticism adds extra-biblical, subjective sources—while I appeal to Scripture alone. The real issue is not doctrine, but discernment. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:14).


The confusion is yours, not mine, because you are hearing Christ only on the surface and not spiritually. I suggest you take this to prayer and to the Word—“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 11:15).

Selah!

Thankfully, the literal Judaean Christians were not cultic gnostics. They literally heeded Jesus' literal warnings, literally escaped the literal Roman invasion, and literally survived.

Scripture never uses the term “Judaean Christians.” The Bible speaks instead of “the churches of Judaea which were in Christ” (Galatians 1:22). That is a geographical description, not a separate Christian identity. From Acts through the Epistles, Jewish and Gentile believers are one body in Christ, not divided into sub-gospels or "regional Christianities" (Acts 9:31; Galatians 3:28). The modern version bible and label are extra-biblical and should not be read back into the text to build a false doctrine of "Judaean Christians" need to escape physical Judaea like you do. Beside this is not what Christ talked about anyway. Spiritual discernment. :)

 

[TribulationSigns]

Rev 7 IMO affirms this and is why we first read of the faithful of Old who were sealed before the gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be proclaimed unto all nations, tribes, kindreds, people and tongues. The Old Covenant faithful, all the tribes of the children of Israel are numbered with the innumerable multitude but they, being firstfruits of the Spirit being sealed through the Holy Spirit before the Spirit was poured out upon the whole earth are counted first...

...Once the saints of Old were spiritually sealed, the spiritual body living souls ascended spiritually alive to heaven with the Lord after His resurrection, the Spirit that had been universally held back but the time of Christ building the Kingdom of God through the power of the gospel and His Spirit had come to all mankind. That's why we read of only the remnant 144,000 of Old eternally saved, and after an innumerable multitude that no man can number. Rev 7:9 is a picture of the full embodiment of every faithful saint in heaven from the beginning of creation until the seventh trumpet sounds.

The 144,000 can only be all the fullness of the tribes or families of Israel. The total fullness of the children of God, bar none. That's the full body of Christ, whom is the ultimate Israel of God. It is spiritual covenant Israel. You believe they are strictly Old Covenant Saints alone.

I think we need to go to God's Word for an answer to understand exactly what 144,000 represents to God's eye, according to HIS WORD. First the number game:

The number 12 is the spiritual number of the Church or Congregation. For example, the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. And 1,000 is the spiritual number for the fullness (1000 years, 1000 cattle, 1000 hills, etc.). So the 12,000 from each family signify the fullness (1000) of each family or tribe of God's children (12). Or 12x1000. 12,000 from each tribe. Thus the number, a hundred and forty and four thousand "signify" the completeness or whole body of the children of God throughout time. 12,000 X the 12 tribes or families. It's God's way of illustrating through numbers His whole household, which is the entire body of Christ. Or as it says, "all the tribes of the children of Israel." All the Children of God through Christ. That means everyone who was ever saved since Creation.
What you are espousing is a unholy bifurcation of God's chosen people. There are not two separate bodies called "Israel" that are sealed separate bodies. There isn't a Old Testament Jewish Israel of God and then a New Testament Gentile Israel of God. Israel is one holy people of God. The Israel of God is not divided into 144,000 OC Israel, PLUS some Gentiles, for God has stated that there is neither Jew nor Greek, we are all "one" in Christ. Israel is all one body in Christ Jesus. But don't take my word for it, receive the witness of scripture.

Ephesians 2:12-19

• "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
• But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
• For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
• Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
• And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
• And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
• For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
• Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; "

How could it be written any plainer? The tribes or families of Israel that are sealed as servants of God are all one people. For us to say that Israel is one body of Jews and Gentiles at peace with God through one man Jesus Christ, and then to turn around and claim the 144,000 sealed of all the tribes of Israel are only OC Jews, is a non-sequitur. The word is the authority, not our own vain personal opinions or private interpretations.

Finally, we need to consider the rest of Scripture for confirmation on who 144,000 really is:
For example, how about the New Song that only the 144,000 could sing? Do you honestly believe they are all physical Jews from the Old Testament only? Have you read what they are singing?

Revelation 14:3-5

• "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
• These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
• And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

Now, according to God, only the 144,000 redeemed from earth can learn this new song, and yet we read that the 24 elders representing the church also sing this new song. Now who does the 24 elders represent? Jews only? Think about it Furthermore, this new song 24 elders sing states (as does Revelation 14) that they too were those redeemed unto God. But here the information goes further and declares they were redeemed out of every nation, language and people. So very clearly this new song that can only be learned by the 144,000, obviously cannot be only those with a literal physical Jewish heritage. The whole idea makes a mockery of sound exegesis.

Revelation 5:8-10

• "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
• And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
• And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

My only question now is, how will you wrest or twist these scriptures to make them not say what they very obviously say? Only the 144,000 can sing this, and yet it plainly declares they are from every nation, not just OC Israel. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation! They are a chosen people redeemed unto God by the blood of Christ out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation! 12,000 times 12,000, symbolizing the fullness of the household of God. Or did you think that there were only 12,000 literally sealed from every literal tribe or spiritually representing the OC Saints only?

(Continue to next post)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Continue from previous post)

Please read the Scripture about the Lamb's Bride:

Revelation 21:9-17

• And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
• And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
• Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
• And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
• On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
• And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
• And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
• And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
• And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

We need to understand that it is GOD who SPIRTUALIZES Israel, not anyone here. Not even me. Even if anyone don't know that, or if anyone don't accept that, or if anyone do not believe that, does not change the fact that it is absolutely true. I bore witness to the scriptures, not my own words concerning Israel. That there was a covenant nation of Israel once, does not change the fact that Christ is the true Israel of God. Nor that all those sealed of Israel are not the nation only. Nor that all the tribes/families of Israel that were sealed are all believers from all nations, is not true. So though someone say he have issues with my "spiritualization" of the sealing of Israel, it is truly God's spirtualizing. Because there is only one Israel that is sealed. There is one sealing, and there is one body of Christ. Not two. Consider wisely:

Revelation 21:12

• "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:"

The twelve gates for the twelve tribes, would represent the children of the Old Testament Covenant.

Rev 21:14

• And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The wall with twelve foundations, represents the children of the New Testament covenant. Now...read carefully:

Revelation 21:15-17

• And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
• And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
• And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

See? God told John to measure the whole city wall. For example, the whole city, including the gates and the wall. Which comes up to 144! That is what the 144 spiritually representing ALL THE ELECT from BOTH Gates and the wall! Not just Old Covenant Jews as you think. Not at all. John heard the number 144,000 as a symbolic number for the great multitude. This is how John saw the whole city as a bride of the Lamb.

Sorry to say but your intepreation for 144,000 is only strictly to the Old Covenant Jews is wrong. This is not support by the rest of the Scripture. You, me and all Elect since Creation are part of the spiritual 144,000 representing all men redeemed from Earth. The 24 elders of Revelation are representative characters of both the Old and New Testament and are characterized as elders becasue they have been given judgment, and they have rule, and they sit as kings upon twenty-four thrones signifying their appointment as priests of Israel. Being elder simple represents heads or rulers of the church with wisdom of Christ.

For more deep study on New Jerusalem and who are the 24 elders may read the following article.

Merry Christmas

 

[covenantee]

Scripture never uses the term “Judaean Christians.” The Bible speaks instead of “the churches of Judaea which were in Christ” (Galatians 1:22). That is a geographical description, not a separate Christian identity.

Yes, you're absolutely correct. The term “Judaean Christians” only ever refers exclusively to that unique genetic subspecies with Judaean hair, Judaean eyes, Judaean noses, Judaean mouths, Judaean arms, Judaean legs, Judaean fingers, Judaean toes, Judaean skin, and Judaean organs. It could never possibly refer to "them which are in Judaea". Luke 21:21

Thanks for the correction.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes, you're absolutely correct. The term “Judaean Christians” only ever refers exclusively to that unique genetic subspecies with Judaean hair, Judaean eyes, Judaean noses, Judaean mouths, Judaean arms, Judaean legs, Judaean fingers, Judaean toes, Judaean skin, and Judaean organs. It could never possibly refer to "them which are in Judaea". Luke 21:21

Thanks for the correction.

Good grief, sure we can accept your theology if we disregard the whole context and trample upon what Christ "CLEARLY" stated.

Matthew 24:16-19

• "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
• Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
• Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
• And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!"

To treat “flee Judaea” as nothing more than a physical escape route is not faithfulness to Scripture—it is willful blindness. Judaea here is not merely dirt and borders. It represents God's congregation that once belonged to God but now stands under judgment because of her unfaithfulness. In other words, it is the New Testament Church when it becomes corrupt prior to Second Coming.

Christ did not randomly mention housetops, houses, fields, and clothes. He is telling His people not to cling to or stay in the unfaithful church when judgment comes. Do not come down to gather your garments. Do not go back church for your garments. The garments is the clothes of righteousness. Leave it all behind and leave. Keep what you already have.

Revelation 16:13-16

• And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
• For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

• And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Do you realize that the judgment of the unfaithful New Testament congregation "is" indeed the battle of Armageddon? God is not talking about physical war upon physical mountain of a cplace called Megiddo. Rather, God is using the biblical name Megiddo because the name literally means assembly, meaning a getting-together, or a rendzvous. God is assembling the army of false prophets and christs (men with spirits of devils) as a tool of judgment upon unfaithful church! It is a war or battle of [Har Magedon] is the report of the battle of the war of the deceived nations (spiritual Gentiles). They are spiritually called Gog and Magog as the church is spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation. This is where the Judaea symbolics where we, Elect, need to flee when they see the army are coming into the congregtations of God all over the world and they need to stay away to avoid being partake of her plagues.
See, Judaea is a "woman" with "child" and "giving suck" is not about a tragic nursing problem in 70AD or whatever when they see Roman Soliders. Please!!! Look, again, the woman, the congregation, "is" Judaea itself -- still producing followers (children) but no longer feeding them with true gospel at that time! Her children suffer BECAUSE she has replaced Gospel Truth with lying signs and wonders. This sis why Christ says, "Woe"! 70AD was not a time of "woe", selah!

Your problem is simple: you confuse taking Scripture “literally” with understanding it. That mistake is not new. It is exactly how the Jews read the Scriptures while missing the Messiah standing right under their nose. You read the words, ignore the meaning, and call it faithfulness according to Josephus. LOL! You have no clues what you are talking about.

This is not deep. It is not complicated. You simply refuse the spiritual meaning because it would expose what Christ is actually warning about—come out of unfaithful congregation when you "see" it "IF" you have an understanding what it really is.

Matthew 24:15-16
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Let him understand requires spiritual understanding by checking with context and comparing Scripture with Scripture. Its not what you think Christ talked about. He did not talking about people with Judaean hair, Judaean eyes, Judaean noses, Judaean mouths, Judaean arms, Judaean legs, Judaean fingers, Judaean toes, Judaean skin, and Judaean organs, nor physical temple or physical land of Judea.

Until you stop clinging to surface readings and start listening to what Christ is actually saying, you will keep missing the warning He could not have made clearer. Selah!

 

[rwb]

What you are espousing is a unholy bifurcation of God's chosen people. There are not two separate bodies called "Israel" that are sealed separate bodies. There isn't a Old Testament Jewish Israel of God and then a New Testament Gentile Israel of God. Israel is one holy people of God. The Israel of God is not divided into 144,000 OC Israel, PLUS some Gentiles, for God has stated that there is neither Jew nor Greek, we are all "one" in Christ. Israel is all one body in Christ Jesus. But don't take my word for it, receive the witness of scripture.

Neither I, nor the Bible separates God's chosen people into two separate bodies since the advent of Christ coming to earth to save His sheep (Jew & Gentile). But we cannot deny there was a "first Covenant" according to Levitical Law as well as the New Covenant according to grace. The first Covenant according to Law, though applicable to ALL people, was primarily for the Jews.

The Bible defines Israel of God through two distinct Covenants. Belonging to true Israel of God has always been by grace through faith under both the Old and New Covenant. There was an Israel of God born under the Old Covenant which according to Law one must submit to Judaism to be numbered with the Old Covenant body called, Israel. Before the advent of Christ Israel of faith were a single flock with one King, the Shepherd ordained of Old who was to come. It wasn't until the advent of Christ' coming that we learn of "other sheep" who are not of the fold of Israel of Old, and the two becoming "one fold, and one Shepherd", called "Israel of God."

John 10:14-16 (KJV) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Matthew 10:5-7 (KJV) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luke 24:47 (KJV) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Romans 9:23-24 (KJV) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I don't disagree the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children are together with the innumerable multitude and the fullness of the One Covenant body since the advent of Christ. But those of Old came to the Messiah by grace through faith according to faithfulness to the Law. Those of the New Covenant come to the same Messiah, called Christ Jesus our Lord by grace through the faithfulness of Christ alone and power of His Spirit.

You're conflating two different visions John saw of heaven, one from before creation, and the other after the 144,000 saints of Old were sealed with the Spirit a spiritual body, living souls, faithful saints coming from the Old Covenant.

John is given this first vision of heaven, that is a view from eternity before creation. Read in context beginning with vs 1-5 John is shown the plan of redemption enacted in heaven between the triune Godhead. The Covenant of Redemption came about because the book of God with the names written therein of all who were ordained to eternal life was sealed and no man in heaven or earth was found worthy to open the book. John wept because he realized that if the book could not be opened to look and know who was to be eternally saved, then none who are ordained to be saved would be saved. Christ was given to know His sheep, calling them by name.

But then as John watches he sees in the midst of the throne "a Lamb as it had been slain". The Lamb took the book from the hand of the Father, and all the hosts of heaven, with all the prayers of the saints sang a new song, no longer the song of Moses that was of Old when Israel was set free from captivity of Egypt. Now John hears a new song of the Lamb being slain He was worthy to open the Lamb's Book of Life that the redeemed written in the book would be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 5:6-10 (KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

In this vision John sees a sea of glass, symbolizing all the saints of heaven, mingled with fire, symbolizing how they/we were must come through fiery trials/testing Christians throughout the ages are called to endure. Notice, not only are they singing the son of Moses, representing Christ, of Old Covenant saints, but also singing the New Covenant song of the Lamb, together representing the fullness of the Covenant body from both old and new together.

Revelation 15:2-4 (KJV) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Luke 10:20 (KJV) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Revelation 20:12 (KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The vision John sees here symbolizes the 144,000 after being sealed a spiritual body/living souls who ascended with Christ to heaven after He arose from the grave. They sing a new song the song of the Lamb which only they were then privy to being the firstfruits of spiritual life, living souls in heaven who are as the angels of God spirit beings without human form.

Revelation 14:1-3 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Neither I, nor the Bible separates God's chosen people into two separate bodies since the advent of Christ coming to earth to save His sheep (Jew & Gentile). But we cannot deny there was a "first Covenant" according to Levitical Law as well as the New Covenant according to grace. The first Covenant according to Law, though applicable to ALL people, was primarily for the Jews.

Just because there are two covenant does not prove that the 144,000 need to apply to the Old Covenant people only. This is not what the rest of Scripture confirms. Again, the number 144,000 in Revelation 7 signifies the fullness of the spiritual children of Israel. Not the "literal tribes of the children of Israel of Old." John heard the number which has spiritual signifies and he saw a great multitude as a result. It is all about spiritual Israel making up of both old and new testament. This is what the number 144,000 SIGNIFIES! I also explain a bible proof about the 144 in Revelation 21. John measured the WHOLE CITY which clearly make up of ALL Elect, Not the OC Jews only.

Rev 21:15-17
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

John didn't measure only the gates or the wall but the whole CITY as the 144 cubits. He measured the WHOLE city, that includes the twelves gates and twelves foundations of the Lambs. Now do you see that the WHOLE CITY as strictly Old Covenant Jews only? I do not think so! It is your interpretation for 144,000 in revelation 7 therefore, isn't accurate and wishfully thinking.

The Bible defines Israel of God through two distinct Covenants. Belonging to true Israel of God has always been by grace through faith under both the Old and New Covenant. There was an Israel of God born under the Old Covenant which according to Law one must submit to Judaism to be numbered with the Old Covenant body called, Israel.

This does not change anything. This does NOT make the Old Covenant body "the" 144,000, apart from the New Covenant.

Before the advent of Christ Israel of faith were a single flock with one King, the Shepherd ordained of Old who was to come. It wasn't until the advent of Christ' coming that we learn of "other sheep" who are not of the fold of Israel of Old, and the two becoming "one fold, and one Shepherd", called "Israel of God."

And? This still does not prove that they are the 144,000 before some other group of sheep. No—the one fold is the 144,000. They are the tribes of spiritual Israel in Christ, not ethnic fragments arranged in stages. They sing one and the same song, because they are one redeemed people. The 144,000 also correspond to the 24 elders, who sing that same song.

In short: 144,000 = the great multitude = all saints in Christ. Scripture never divides them into competing redeemed classes.

Now, concerning the Old Covenant. When it ended at the Cross, what happened to the elect Jews of the Old Testament?

They lived by faith, not by the Law. “The just shall live by faith” (Habakkuk 2:4). “Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness” (Romans 4:3, quoting Genesis). The Old Covenant Law never saved anyone—it exposed sin and pointed forward to Christ. “It is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins” (Hebrews 10:4).

Therefore, Christ’s death was retroactive. When He died, His sacrifice covered all sins of all the faithful, both Old Testament and New. “For the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25). That includes Adam, Seth, Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, and all the faithful. They were not saved apart from Christ; they were saved because of Christ, even though they lived before the Cross. They did not remain under the Old Covenant. This explains why they are the one same virgins along with us, Revelation 14:4.

Thus, Old Testament saints are indeed part of the New Covenant. They belong to one redeemed people, saved by one sacrifice, under one Mediator. The Old Covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). There is no parallel salvation track for Jews.

Old Testament believers looked forward to Christ. New Testament believers look back to Christ. The object of faith is the same, because “Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever” (Hebrews 13:8).

So yes—Christ died for them, and they fully share in the same salvation accomplished at the Cross. We are all 144,000 in God's eyes that spiritually representing the great multitude of us!

 

[covenantee]

To treat “flee Judaea” as nothing more than a physical escape route is not faithfulness to Scripture—it is willful blindness.

Why did "them which are in Judaea" flee over a physical escape route?

Were they willfully blind?

 

[rwb]

Just because there are two covenant does not prove that the 144,000 need to apply to the Old Covenant people only. This is not what the rest of Scripture confirms. Again, the number 144,000 in Revelation 7 signifies the fullness of the spiritual children of Israel. Not the "literal tribes of the children of Israel of Old." John heard the number which has spiritual signifies and he saw a great multitude as a result. It is all about spiritual Israel making up of both old and new testament. This is what the number 144,000 SIGNIFIES! I also explain a bible proof about the 144 in Revelation 21. John measured the WHOLE CITY which clearly make up of ALL Elect, Not the OC Jews only.

Rev 21:15-17
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

John didn't measure only the gates or the wall but the whole CITY as the 144 cubits. He measured the WHOLE city, that includes the twelves gates and twelves foundations of the Lambs. Now do you see that the WHOLE CITY as strictly Old Covenant Jews only? I do not think so! It is your interpretation for 144,000 in revelation 7 therefore, isn't accurate and wishfully thinking.

This does not change anything. This does NOT make the Old Covenant body "the" 144,000, apart from the New Covenant.

And? This still does not prove that they are the 144,000 before some other group of sheep. No—the one fold is the 144,000. They are the tribes of spiritual Israel in Christ, not ethnic fragments arranged in stages. They sing one and the same song, because they are one redeemed people. The 144,000 also correspond to the 24 elders, who sing that same song.

In short: 144,000 = the great multitude = all saints in Christ. Scripture never divides them into competing redeemed classes.

Now, concerning the Old Covenant. When it ended at the Cross, what happened to the elect Jews of the Old Testament?

They lived by faith, not by the Law. “The just shall live by faith” (Habakkuk 2:4). “Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness” (Romans 4:3, quoting Genesis). The Old Covenant Law never saved anyone—it exposed sin and pointed forward to Christ. “It is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins” (Hebrews 10:4).

Therefore, Christ’s death was retroactive. When He died, His sacrifice covered all sins of all the faithful, both Old Testament and New. “For the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25). That includes Adam, Seth, Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, and all the faithful. They were not saved apart from Christ; they were saved because of Christ, even though they lived before the Cross. They did not remain under the Old Covenant. This explains why they are the one same virgins along with us, Revelation 14:4.

Thus, Old Testament saints are indeed part of the New Covenant. They belong to one redeemed people, saved by one sacrifice, under one Mediator. The Old Covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). There is no parallel salvation track for Jews.

Old Testament believers looked forward to Christ. New Testament believers look back to Christ. The object of faith is the same, because “Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever” (Hebrews 13:8).

So yes—Christ died for them, and they fully share in the same salvation accomplished at the Cross. We are all 144,000 in God's eyes that spiritually representing the great multitude of us!

Prior to the two witnesses being sent out unto all nations, John was instructed to measure the temple of God, the altar, and them that worship therein. This measuring was of the temple of God, the altar and them that worship therein after Christ came to build the Kingdom of God as the gospel is preached in the power of the Holy Spirit. The temple, altar and them that worship therein before the two witnesses are sent out to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all nations of the world were those faithful saints who came from the Old Covenant faithful body. The counting included not only faithful Jews and Gentiles converted to Judaism still alive when Christ came, but also the Old Covenant faithful saints waiting under the altar, who died in faith, symbolizing being under the blood of the Messiah who was to come. This symbolizes the partial body of Christ in heaven while the passage in Rev 21 symbolizes not only the twelve tribes from the nation of Israel, symbolizing the fullness of those belonging to Christ from Old, who are saved by grace through faith believing the Law and Prophets of Old, and also the twelve apostles of the Lamb, symbolizing the fullness of those belonging to Christ from the New who are saved by grace through faith as they hear the gospel of the Kingdom of God through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 11:1-2 (KJV) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 6:9-10 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 21:12-14 (KJV) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

One last point for you to consider. The 144,000 do not symbolize all the saints in Christ, they symbolize only the remnant of saints in Christ saved by grace through faith being obedient to the Law and Prophets of Old. All the saints of Christ are symbolized as both the remnant of Old (144,000) and the great innumerable multitude of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues both Old and New together as one complete body of Christ.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Why did "them which are in Judaea" flee over a physical escape route?

Were they willfully blind?

Easy

You got wrong judaea. Context didn’t support your literal interpretation.

 

[covenantee]

Easy

You got wrong judaea. Context didn’t support your literal interpretation.

List all of the non-Olivet instances of non-literal Judaea in NT Scripture.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Prior to the two witnesses being sent out unto all nations, John was instructed to measure the temple of God, the altar, and them that worship therein.

"Prior to" Two Witnesses' ministry? Really?

First...

Revelation 11:1-3

• And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
• But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
• And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Do you understand what does the "reed like unto a rod" represented and for what purpose? Where is this Holy Temple of God told John to measure exactly? What about the altar? Worshippers therein?

And you also need to explain who is the court that is without the temple represents? And why God will give this up to the Gentiles? Who are the Gentiles in God's eye while the HOLY city tread underfoot for 42 months? Do you honestly think all of these have occurred before the ministry of Two Witnesses, humm? Answer all the questions above and explain this biblically.

Revelation 21:12-14 (KJV) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

One last point for you to consider. The 144,000 do not symbolize all the saints in Christ, they symbolize only the remnant of saints in Christ saved by grace through faith being obedient to the Law and Prophets of Old. All the saints of Christ are symbolized as both the remnant of Old (144,000) and the great innumerable multitude of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues both Old and New together as one complete body of Christ.

Did you skip Revelation 21:15-17 on purpose? Did you avoid answer my question if the whole city is 144? Read again which is in the same context that you quoted:

Rev 21:15-17

• And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
• And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
• And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Answer this questions carefully:

1.) What part of the city did the Lord measured for 144 cubits to?

2.) Is 144 strictly limited to the gates to fit your "OC Saints" theory, or the wall of whole city, including the gates AND the walls? Yes or no?

 

[TribulationSigns]

List all of the non-Olivet instances of non-literal Judaea in NT Scripture.

Well, I can do better than this. You were thinking that I made this up or inventing symbolism out of thin air. No, you are wrong. It only show that you deny spiritual discernment and call anything you don't like to hear as gnostic. Typical!

The New Testament itself redefines “Judaea,” “Jerusalem,” “temple,” and “holy place” after the cross, relocating them from geography to covenant identity in Christ. What you are trying to do is to demand actually does exist in Scripture—just not in the wooden, literal way you think! For example... if you have spiritual ears to hear:

1. The “Holy Place” is no longer a physical building — it "IS" the Church on this side of the Cross:​

Eph 2:19-22
(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
(20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
(21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
(22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Holy Place = habitation of God = believers together. Likewise, the holy place before the Cross before its fall, before the Church takes its place in three days, are the Old Covenant people who have rejectged the chief corner stones. Didn't you read Scripture like Jesus said? Else you are as blind as the Jews.

The Holy place was not about physical stones. Not geography. Not Judaea-the-province.

2. The Church is explicitly called the Temple of God​

1Co 3:16

• Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2Co 6:16

• And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The only places that qualify as the Holy Place on this side of the Cross are:

1.) Christ (He "IS" the Temple)
2.) Chosen Elect ("we are temple of God")
3.) Church (Once holy but can eventually fall)

So if the abomination stands in the “holy place”, and the holy place on this side of the Cross is the Church, then the warning applies to the New Testament congregation, not the unholy physical temple in 70AD.

3. Jerusalem is redefined as spiritual, not earthly​

Gal 4:25-26

• For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
• But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Paul explicitly contrasts the earthly Jerusalem with the spiritual one. The Church belongs to the Jerusalem above, not the old Judaean system and she already established at Pentecost and has spreaded into regionally neighbors long before 70AD, else Saul did not chase after Christians in Syria. So your belief that the church cannot start until the physical temple in 70AD falls first is WRONGO!

4. Believers are said to have already come to Heavenly Jerusalem​

Heb 12:22-24

• But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
• To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
• And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This is present reality, not future geography in 70AD after the Cross where Old Covenant already fell. No physical stones falling is needed.

5. The Church is the true circumcision, replacing ethnic boundary markers​

Php 3:3

• For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

If circumcision (the sign of Judaea) is redefined spiritually, then Judaea itself cannot remain a purely ethnic/geographic category. :-)

6. The “Israel of God” is the Church​

Gal 6:15-16

• For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
• And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Paul applies Israel-language to believers in Christ, not national borders nor physical city.

The New Testament repeatedly redefines Judaean categories after the cross. After being enlightened by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, long before 70AD. The disciples wrote that they understood what Christ talked about. That is why in Matthew 24:15, "whoso readeth, let him understand" which requires the Holy Spirit. Therefore, after the fall of old Covenant and the New Covenant establsiehd on the same day at the Cross, the "holy place" is now the Church (1st Cor 3:16; Eph 2:21-22). And the physical temple was made unholy the moment veil torn. Jersualem is no longer earthly but heavenly (Gal 4:26; Heb 12:22). This made Judaea spiritaully the church where believers are the true circumcision and the Israel of God. Therefore, when Matthew 24 warns of an abomination standing in the holy place, it cannot be confined to ethnic Judaea or physical stone temple in 70AD.

The Word of God itself relocates Judaea, Jerusalem, temple, etc. into Christ and His church, making up of chosen Elect AND the professed believers who are building the temple until all Elect are secured. THEN the New Testament congregation will fall into apostasy and desolation which Christ prophesied in His Olivet Discourse - all of the context, after the fall of Old Testament congregation in the first two verses.

You are asking for permission to keep literalism where the apostles themselves, with the Spirit of God, did not. The New Testament already answers them. Selah!

 

[covenantee]

Well, I can do better than this. You were thinking that I made this up or inventing symbolism out of thin air. No, you are wrong. It only show that you deny spiritual discernment and call anything you don't like to hear as gnostic. Typical!

The New Testament itself redefines “Judaea,” “Jerusalem,” “temple,” and “holy place” after the cross, relocating them from geography to covenant identity in Christ. What you are trying to do is to demand actually does exist in Scripture—just not in the wooden, literal way you think! For example... if you have spiritual ears to hear:

1. The “Holy Place” is no longer a physical building — it "IS" the Church on this side of the Cross:​

Eph 2:19-22
(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
(20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
(21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
(22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Holy Place = habitation of God = believers together. Likewise, the holy place before the Cross before its fall, before the Church takes its place in three days, are the Old Covenant people who have rejectged the chief corner stones. Didn't you read Scripture like Jesus said? Else you are as blind as the Jews.

The Holy place was not about physical stones. Not geography. Not Judaea-the-province.

2. The Church is explicitly called the Temple of God​

1Co 3:16

• Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2Co 6:16

• And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The only places that qualify as the Holy Place on this side of the Cross are:

1.) Christ (He "IS" the Temple)
2.) Chosen Elect ("we are temple of God")
3.) Church (Once holy but can eventually fall)

So if the abomination stands in the “holy place”, and the holy place on this side of the Cross is the Church, then the warning applies to the New Testament congregation, not the unholy physical temple in 70AD.

3. Jerusalem is redefined as spiritual, not earthly​

Gal 4:25-26

• For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
• But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Paul explicitly contrasts the earthly Jerusalem with the spiritual one. The Church belongs to the Jerusalem above, not the old Judaean system and she already established at Pentecost and has spreaded into regionally neighbors long before 70AD, else Saul did not chase after Christians in Syria. So your belief that the church cannot start until the physical temple in 70AD falls first is WRONGO!

4. Believers are said to have already come to Heavenly Jerusalem​

Heb 12:22-24

• But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
• To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
• And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This is present reality, not future geography in 70AD after the Cross where Old Covenant already fell. No physical stones falling is needed.

5. The Church is the true circumcision, replacing ethnic boundary markers​

Php 3:3

• For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

If circumcision (the sign of Judaea) is redefined spiritually, then Judaea itself cannot remain a purely ethnic/geographic category. :-)

6. The “Israel of God” is the Church​

Gal 6:15-16

• For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
• And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Paul applies Israel-language to believers in Christ, not national borders nor physical city.

The New Testament repeatedly redefines Judaean categories after the cross. After being enlightened by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, long before 70AD. The disciples wrote that they understood what Christ talked about. That is why in Matthew 24:15, "whoso readeth, let him understand" which requires the Holy Spirit. Therefore, after the fall of old Covenant and the New Covenant establsiehd on the same day at the Cross, the "holy place" is now the Church (1st Cor 3:16; Eph 2:21-22). And the physical temple was made unholy the moment veil torn. Jersualem is no longer earthly but heavenly (Gal 4:26; Heb 12:22). This made Judaea spiritaully the church where believers are the true circumcision and the Israel of God. Therefore, when Matthew 24 warns of an abomination standing in the holy place, it cannot be confined to ethnic Judaea or physical stone temple in 70AD.

The Word of God itself relocates Judaea, Jerusalem, temple, etc. into Christ and His church, making up of chosen Elect AND the professed believers who are building the temple until all Elect are secured. THEN the New Testament congregation will fall into apostasy and desolation which Christ prophesied in His Olivet Discourse - all of the context, after the fall of Old Testament congregation in the first two verses.

You are asking for permission to keep literalism where the apostles themselves, with the Spirit of God, did not. The New Testament already answers them. Selah!

So the evasive squirming begins.

Just satisfy the request.

List all of the non-Olivet instances of non-literal Judaea in NT Scripture.

Couldn't be more simple.

Waiting.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So the evasive squirming begins.

Just satisfy the request.

List all of the non-Olivet instances of non-literal Judaea in NT Scripture.

Couldn't be more simple.

Waiting.

Can't help you with this becasue obviously you do not have spirit of Christ to "understand" what Christ talked about in Olivet discourse. Not up to me.

Revelation 2:17

• "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

The understanding of Revelation, as well as Matthew, Daniel, etc. are like receiving a white stone that no one can understand except him that receives it. Much like the mystery of the kingdom that not everyone is privileged of God to understand its true nature. God gives to His elect the Spiritual knowledge to understand that this is a Spiritual kingdom, rather than a physical, political one in the Middle East. Our Lord speaks in a mystery (paraboloc, symbolic, secretive) form that others would not see, nor understand. Same with when Christ told those who "can" see" are the ones with spiritual understanding because it was given to them, not the others: E.g.

Mark 4:11

• "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables."

It is given to them that is within the Spiritual Mountain Retreat or refuge of God to know, but to those without (outside), it is not given them to know. We have to trust God, because He is the only peace and safety that is efficacious to secure and seal us in this world. Flee to the mountain refuge. Selah!

Psalms 62:8

• "Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah."

 

[covenantee]

Can't help you with this becasue obviously you do not have spirit of Christ to "understand" what Christ talked about in Olivet discourse. Not up to me.

Revelation 2:17

• "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

The understanding of Revelation, as well as Matthew, Daniel, etc. are like receiving a white stone that no one can understand except him that receives it. Much like the mystery of the kingdom that not everyone is privileged of God to understand its true nature. God gives to His elect the Spiritual knowledge to understand that this is a Spiritual kingdom, rather than a physical, political one in the Middle East. Our Lord speaks in a mystery (paraboloc, symbolic, secretive) form that others would not see, nor understand. Same with when Christ told those who "can" see" are the ones with spiritual understanding because it was given to them, not the others: E.g.

Mark 4:11

• "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables."

It is given to them that is within the Spiritual Mountain Retreat or refuge of God to know, but to those without (outside), it is not given them to know. We have to trust God, because He is the only peace and safety that is efficacious to secure and seal us in this world. Flee to the mountain refuge. Selah!

Psalms 62:8

• "Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah."

Waiting.