Reason for The Crusades explained

[Aunty Jane]

So, total abdication of responsibility of you or other human beings personally doing justice as Micah 6:8 commands.

You quote Scripture without knowledge.....always referring back to old Israelite times.....
what is the saying Wrangler?....”a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”....do you know why?

The little knowledge you have is so misunderstood and so misinterpreted that your application becomes comical.

Please do some real study and see that the Bible is one story, and that eras are involved, each with its own actions, people and understanding, but surrendering the former when replaced by the newer. There is a new era to come when the final battle is over, and non-combatants are the only ones who will pass the test for entry into God’s new world. They have done what Isaiah said they would in this “final part of the days”....

Isaiah 2:2-4....
“In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream.
3  And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.”
For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
4  He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight respecting many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.”

God has no place in his new world for war mongers, and those who can happily justify what God condemns.

 

[Wrangler]

It’s pointless trying to argue with your mindset Wrangler....you have convinced yourself that disobeying Christ is somehow your right

Projecting. Buy a sword. Give to government what is government‘s (including military service, such as killing enemies) is what you are disobeying.

 

[Wrangler]

God has no place in his new world for war mongers,

LOL. God is a warrior in practice, not just theory.

 

[Matthias]

”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill”

“There are more than 2.5 million post 9/11 military veterans that have served our nation, which is less than 1% of the population.”

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Our military veterans are facing unprecedented challenges as a result of their service to our nation. Their dedication in protecting our freedoms, going undeterred into hostile environments, cannot be overlooked, especially upon returning home. We must watch out for them. It’s time to take...

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> 99% of the U.S. population hasn’t served in the military. Most followers of Jesus aren’t armed, aren’t ready to kill, have not served in the military, and never will.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Projecting. Buy a sword. Give to government what is government‘s (including military service, such as killing enemies) is what you are disobeying.

No matter how many times you are shown, you just don’t get it and by the look of things, you never will.....
Both of those verses are misunderstood and misapplied.

Can you tell me what a martyr is Wrangler? Because I don’t think you could ever be one.

LOL. God is a warrior in practice, not just theory.

God can be whatever he wants to be....he created life and has authority to eliminate it if disobedience is entrenched in an unteachable mind.......what he doesn’t need is people jumping into his position and deciding for themselves how to administer his justice.....it’s not our job. The nations of “the world” were given authority to set their own standards of justice.....but as citizens of God’s Kingdom and not man’s, we are not at liberty to disobey Jesus and the apostles because we are lovers of violent retaliation....and want to be self-appointed vigilantes....heroes in our own estimations.....champions of justice? Or puppets of the devil?
God knows.....even when we don’t. Our hearts are obeying the god we serve.

 

[Matthias]

“We have been called to overcome evil with good, to make peace, not fleshly war. In so doing we can combat Satan with God’s peace.”

(Chuck Jones, Living Today The Kingdom Way, p. 64)

The Kingdom living calling of the followers of Jesus vs. the carnal living calling of the followers of the devil.

***

“We are called now to replace the world’s doubts with God’s love, its confusion with God’s peace. The world needs this, and you have been called into active duty.

‘Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man will see God’ (Hebrews 12:14)”

(Ibid., p. 65)

 

[Wrangler]

Both of those verses are misunderstood and misapplied.

Yes - misunderstood and misapplied by the over-spiritualized who OBVIOUSLY have no Biblical sense of justice. Micah 6:8 is explicit; DO justice (not wait for God to do justice). This is why you avoid the thread question; the reasons FOR the Crusades.

The Crusades were a soulful, practical response to restore justice in Christian nations by Christians acting on practical Christian principles, such as Buy a sword. Give to government what is government‘s (including military service, such as killing enemies).

Profound lack of humility to claim centuries of soulful Christians tested with extinction didn’t understand the Bible but you, who benefit from the fruit of their labor - understand principles that would have led to Christianity’s extinction.

 

[Wrangler]

Let’s take them one at a time......

1. What are the reasons FOR the Crusades?

Regardless of the reasons

Everyone can see the total dodge.

 

[Matthias]

Killing, murdering, torturing, raping, pillaging, enslaving Christians and desecrating churches. -> the crusaders did all of those things, and more.

What everyone should see is who opposes those things (no matter who does them) and who approves those things (depending on who does them).

Regardless of whether everyone sees or not -> true followers of Jesus must oppose those actions and those who condone them.

 

[Matthias]

Everyone can see the total dodge.

He has chosen not to see me any longer, and that’s fine, but anyone who cares to can see that she and billions of others who stand against him aren’t dodging the reasons for the crusades. “Do unto others the evil that others have done unto you” is contrary to the teaching given by Jesus and the apostles to his followers.

P.S.

See how the early followers of Jesus responded when others did evil unto them. That’s the example to follow. That’s the example he doesn’t want you to look at, and that‘s the example that he is adamantly opposed to you following.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Everyone can see the total dodge.

Sorry mate, one of us is the artful dodger…..so if you cannot see what is right in front of your nose….there is nothing more to say….

I’ll just let Jesus give you his version of how it is…..you might listen to him once you run out of justification.

Take care….over and out….

 

[Matthias]

“• Before 313, Christian leaders consistently taught that Christians should not do violence in defense, retribution, war, or in general.

• The early Christian leaders do not leave any exceptions where Christians can do violence.

• Concerning the state, the early Christian leaders consistently teach that governments may use violence as part of carrying out their duties.

• While Christian leaders taught against joining the military, some converted soldiers remained and served nonviolently, with their permission, and others violently.”

Early Church Fathers on War, Violence, and Pacifism | Anabaptist Faith

This article is the third of a series on the doctrine of nonresistance, which is based on Jesus’ command to do no violence. More specifically, nonresistance is the view that even when striving for justice, Christians, unlike earthly governments, must only employ methods other than violence. This...

anabaptistfaith.org

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias … your worldview is nihilistic, saying what the Crusaders did is NOT right.

“Indeed crusaders did many evil things! Many crusaders plundered, raped, and murdered. Sometimes they even did this to Jews and other Christians! But, sadly, that’s what people do. Again, however, this is absolutely contrary to the teaching of Christ.”

The Truth about the Crusades

Of all the kinds of hypocrisy that is attributed to the Christian, none looms as large as the crusades. What motivated the crusades and were they just?

clayjones.net

What did the crusaders do? “Many evil things … absolutely contrary to the teaching of Christ.”

What Wrangler says is “NOT right” to say is, on the contrary, what every honest person - follower of Jesus or not - must say.

 

[Matthias]

“Introduction

Few events in the history of Christianity are as contentious and misunderstood as the Crusades and the Inquisition.,These periods are often cited as examples of religious zealotry and violence, seemingly in direct contradiction to the teachings of Jesus Christ. This article explores the complex relationship between historical events and Christianity’s core messages. …

The Crusades: A Holy War?

The crusades lasted from the 11th to the 15th centuries and were a series of military campaigns sanctioned by the Latin Church. Their primary aim was to reclaim Jerusalem and other sacred sites from Muslim control. Pope Urban II’s call to arms in 1096 framed the First Crusade as a holy war, promising spiritual rewards and indulgences for those whi took up the cross.

While many Crusaders were driven by genuine religious fervor, the campaigns quickly devolved into brutal conflicts marked by significant violence. Their primary aim sack of Jerusalem in 1099, where thousands of civilians were massacred, remains one of the most infamous episodes. The Crusades left a legacy of deep-seated hatred between Christians and Muslims and internal divisions within Christianity itself.

The Inquisition: Protecting the Faith or Persecuting the Innocent?

The Inquisition, particularly the Spanish Inquisition, is another dark chapter in the history of the Church. Established in 1478, it aimed to root out heresy and enforce religious orthodoxy. Inquisitors were granted immense power, often using torture and execution to extract confessions and punished thise deemed heretical.

The Inquisition’s actions starkly contrast with the teachings of Jesus, who emphasized love, forgiveness, and non-violence. The persecution, torture, and execution of thousands under the guise of religious purity are seen today as grave injustices and a misuse of spiritual authority.

Jesus’ True Message

The actions during the Crusades and the Inquisition stand in stark opposition to Jesus Christ’s core messages. In the New Testament, Jesus preaches love, compassion, and forgiveness. The Sermon on the Mount is a cornerstone of his teachings, advocating for humility, mercy, and peace. ‘Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God’ (Matthew 5:9).

Jesus’ message is one of radical love and non-violence. He taught his followers to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies, and to pray for those who persecuted them. The militaristic and punitive actions of the Crusades and the Inquisitions represent a departure from these teachings, illustrating how religious beliefs can be distorted to justify actions that are fundamentally un-Christian. …

Learning from History

The Crusades and the Inquisition serve as powerful reminders of the dangers of religious extremism and the misuse of faith for political and personal gain. They underscore the importance of interpreting religious teachings in a way that promotes peace, understanding, and compassion. …

Conclusion

Reflecting on the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the current political use of the Bible, it is crucial to recognize the discrepancies between these actions and the teachings of Jesus. By understanding and acknowledging these dark chapters and present challenges, we can work towards a more compassionate and just expression of our faith. Let us strive to embody the true message of Jesus …”

https://medium.com/@kirby.jamey/the-crusades-the-inquisition-and-the-true-message-of-jesus-lessons-for-modern-america-04a987431e20

The true message of Jesus is not carrying out “many evil things” which are “absolutely contrary to the teachings of Christ” (post #1013).

 

[Lambano]

* Attributed to Abbot Arnaud Amalric, commander of the Crusader forces, prior to the massacre at Beziers in the Albigensian Crusade in the Year of Our Lord 1209 when a subcommander reported the difficulty of distinguishing friend from foe. The Latin translates to "Kill them, for the Lord will know his own". I've seen t-shirts with the modern Americanized version, "Kill them all, and let God sort 'em out!" (Available on Amazon for $21.99 plus shipping.)

Is that who we are?

Is that who the Lord Jesus Christ wants us to be?

It's not an easy question, because I do believe Christians have an obligation to defend those who cannot defend themselves. And it is so easy to embrace violence as a way of life, and so become Christ's enemy.

 

[Wrangler]

Sorry mate, one of us is the artful dodger…..so if you cannot see what is right in front of your nose

Agreed. Millions of Christians for 17 centuries fought and killed in wars to protect Christian nations. You engage in revisionist history to rationalize your pacifism, then deny any Christian who rejects your pacifist ideology is not a "real" Christian.

Take care….over and out….

Yup

Is that who we are?

Yes, it IS who Millions of Christians have been for the last 17 centuries, ever since we formed a Christian nation via the Roman Empire.

Is that who the Lord Jesus Christ wants us to be?

Yes, when we have to be.

This is why Thomas Aquinas came up with Ordo amoris, the proper ordering of Christian love. How would the church today react to someone at a fund raising event flipping over tables and whipping at people because they were fund raising? Ecclesiastes say there is a time for war and killing.

It's not easy to have responsibility, especially the responsibility of doing justice. Michah 6:8. It can feel mean but it remains righteous. In my experience, the critic does not object to justice being done; they only object to the HOW. You shouldn't have said it THAT way, etc. For more go to

No More Christian Nice Guy, Revised and Expanded

Part inspiration, part instruction, and part manifesto, this book has been changing lives since it was first published. In this revised and expanded edition, Coughlin shares vital insights on the changes he's seen in churches and the greater culture. He also looks at the shifting expectations...

www.christianbook.com

 

[Matthias]

* Attributed to Abbot Arnaud Amalric, commander of the Crusader forces, prior to the massacre at Beziers in the Albigensian Crusade in the Year of Our Lord 1209 when a subcommander reported the difficulty of distinguishing friend from foe. The Latin translates to "Kill them, for the Lord will know his own". I've seen t-shirts with the modern Americanized version, "Kill them all, and let God sort 'em out!" (Available on Amazon for $21.99 plus shipping.)

Is that who we are?

That‘s not who Jesus, the apostles and the primitive Christians are.

Is that who the Lord Jesus Christ wants us to be?

That’s a great question. No, it isn’t who the lord Jesus Messiah wants his followers to be. He didn’t teach his followers to kill one another for Caesar.

It's not an easy question, because I do believe Christians have an obligation to defend those who cannot defend themselves.

It‘s the governments role to protect its citizens. It wasn’t a hard question until the church merged with the state in the 4th century.

And it is so easy to embrace violence as a way of life, and so become Christ's enemy.

If those teaching and embracing the teaching ”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill” don’t repent, they will one day hear Jesus say to them, “I never knew you.”

 

[Matthias]

Millions of Christians for 17 centuries fought and killed in wars to protect Christian nations. You engage in revisionist history to rationalize your pacifism, then deny any Christian who rejects your pacifist ideology is not a "real" Christian.

There is a critical 3 century gap in his historical record, readers. The apostles and the Christians who lived in that time period remained faithful to the Messiah’s teaching on how to treat their enemies. There have also been Christians throughout the 17 centuries since who have remained faithful to his teachings.

The kingdoms of the world have not yet become the Kingdom of God, and won’t until the Messiah returns and conquers them (Revelation 11:15).

Wrangler has said that he will not wait for the Messiah to return. I beseech you, do not fall for his teaching. The Messiah does not want his followers in one nation to kill his followers in another nation when nations war against nations.

Imitate the example of the apostles and the primitive Christians. Wait patiently for the Messiah to return.

 

[Lambano]

It's not an easy question, because I do believe Christians have an obligation to defend those who cannot defend themselves.

It‘s the governments role to protect its citizens. It wasn’t a hard question until the church merged with the state in the 4th century.

1. In a 21st-century democracy, who is "the government"?
2. In any form of government, who executes government policy?

 

[Lambano]

That’s a great question. No, it isn’t who the lord Jesus Messiah wants his followers to be. He didn’t teach his followers to kill one another for Caesar.

At a Bible Study about 30 years ago, an old pastor of mine told this story: Back when he was a much younger pastor during the Vietnam war, he met a friend who was an Army recruiter over coffee one day.

"Preacher, you Christians don't know what you believe!", the recruiter started out.

"What do you mean, Bill?", Pastor W. responded.

"Half of your young people are parading outside the recruiting office protesting the war. The other half are inside enlisting!"

"Well, Bill, God calls some to defend those who cannot defend themselves. And God calls some to be peacemakers."

Now you guys, you do what you're called to do.