"what shall be the sign of thy coming"

[Jay Ross]

Jay, here are biblical verses regarding the seventh vial (bowl) of God's wrath...

Revelation 16:

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

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Jay, what is your proof that any of those things of seventh vial (bowl) of God's wrath took place in the 20th century as you are claiming ?

The evidence is the conformation of the prophesied events, in the above quoted passage, have already taken place during the 20th century.

But then the bible states to let him who has eyes see and ears hear. So, have you turned your hearing aid on and put on your glasses? From where I live, that does not seem to be the case.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One of the forum rules is not to goad.

Here is an except from that rule....

No Flaming, Goading or Harassment. All members should be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy at all times following the rules of civil discourse.

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@Spiritual Israelite, if you disagree with something I wrote regarding the meaning of "after" and "generation", please go that specific thread and post, and make your response post there. You could also start your own thread regarding the meaning of "generation".

Here's a rule you need to go by. Stop trying to tell everyone what to do, including which terms and phrases they can use.

 

[Douggg]

The evidence is the conformation of the prophesied events, in the above quoted passage, have already taken place during the 20th century.

Jay, are there islands (as it says in verse 20) that disappeared in the 20th century ? Did the great hail stone event of verse 21 take place in the 20th century ?

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

But then the bible states to let him who has eyes see and ears hear. So, have you turned your hearing aid on and put on your glasses? From where I live, that does not seem to be the case.

Jay, the forum rules say don't make personal attacks on other posters.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You fail to accept that Jesus, in Matthew 24:15-22, was answering the question about when the temple buildings would be destroyed. Your failure to accept that results in you resorting to this dual prophecy nonsense.

What about the “nonsense” you are promoting? Who in Christendom agrees with your take on things?
What particular “branch” of “Christianity” do you subscribe to? I noticed you dodged that question...why?
Let’s put the spotlight on your denomination and see what truths they promote....

Christ died, was buried for three days, and was then resurrected by his Father, as he foretold.....he remained for 40 days, ‘appearing’ to his apostles and disciples in order to prepare them for the rough road ahead of them......his ascension to heaven was witnessed by only his closest associates. The angels told them that he would return in “the same manner” as he left. And yet the return of Christ with his angels to destroy all of God’s enemies, was to be a global public spectacle. Observed by all, so that they panic in fear.
Care to explain that?

He had told them that they would be “witnesses” of him “to the most distant part of the earth”, and stated that a “great tribulation” was coming....but that was still years away.
Christ died in 33CE, but the destruction of Jerusalem was not carried out until 70CE, when the Romans returned to finish what they started in 66CE.
The “tribulation” that befell Jerusalem was the most devastating in the history of God’s people, but if they had listened to Jesus and fled to the mountains, as he instructed, leaving their homes, businesses and possessions behind, they would have saved themselves.
Would that be the greatest tribulation in the history of mankind? Was the flood of Noah’s day? Or was that something yet future?

Did God’s Kingdom “come” back then. And do we see God’s will being “done on earth as it is in heaven”?
Please explain...

Once you start with the dual prophecy nonsense, you can make that claim about any prophecy. Where does it end? Are you going to claim that another Messiah is going to come and die for our sins and rise again? Can we say that the prophecies about the Messiah could have dual fulfillments? You can make scripture say anything you want it to say if you resort to this dual prophecy nonsense.

Many things that Jesus spoke had present and future applications, as well as using events from the past as a warning example....like “the days of Noah”. History repeated because the lessons from the past were not acknowledged or observed.
So history would repeat in the future as the apostate Jewish system was mirrored by the apostate “Christianity” we see today, fractured and fragmented into so many sects and denominations that we can no longer count them all. But the one thing they all have in common is their disobedience to the teachings of the Christ, which would have united them rather than dividing them. This is proof of the absence of God’s spirit. (1 Cor 1:10) if God’s spirit was guiding them, they would all teach the same things.

You are quick to point out that my brotherhood must be wrong because we don’t accept the doctrines of Christendom as Bible truth. Just like the Jews rejected Jesus and his apostles because they preached a different truth to their hypocritical religious leaders.

As was prophesied, only a “remnant” of the Jews responded to Jesus and accepted him as Messiah. “Majority rules” don’t apply with God’s people.....they have always been in a hated minority, worshipping one God (Yahweh) who had no equals. (Psalm 83:18)

Jesus said it would be the same way in this time of “the end”, when the message his true disciples present will again fall on deaf ears because the religious leaders of today are also hypocritical frauds, masquerading as Christ’s representatives.

I don't think you're getting the memo here, Aunty Jane. You are part of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult and you need to come out of that and embrace true Christianity and accept that Jesus is your God and that only His blood pays for your sins - not your death and not anything else. Until you do that, you will continue to be very lacking in spiritual discernment. You need to get away from the Jehovah's Witnesses, surrender your life to the great God and Savior Jesus Christ and start a personal relationship with the Mighty God Jesus Christ.

Let me just take that statement apart....
What “memo” did the first Christians need according to what the teachings the Pharisees promoted? (Matt 15:7-9) What did the majority come to think of the Christians? And to this day, did the Jews ever get that “memo”?

I have embraced true Christian teachings that are all taught clearly in the Bible...I reject anything that is a mere suggestion, implied by dodgy translations, that make God Almighty into something he never was. (Deut 6:4)
Christendom invented a god that Jesus and his first century disciples never knew.

Because this Almighty God is immortal, he cannot die, and therefore was never a human sacrifice because there is no way that he could be the equivalent of Adam. God’s law demanded equivalency. How could God become the equivalent of his own creation?

Jesus is our High Priest...one who represents God and directs the worship of his people. Can God become his own High Priest?

Jesus is also said the be “God’s holy servant” (Acts 4:27, 30) Can God become his own servant?

Jesus is the “one mediator between God and men”....since a mediator is the one who facilitates communication between estranged parties, he cannot be one of the parties.
If Jesus was God, we would need a mediator for him as well. You seem to have no idea how illogical Christendom’s beliefs are.

Christ was provided as our Redeemer and this process had to follow the rules for redemption that were well known in Israel......what was offered had to be the equivalent of what was lost. What did Adam lose for all his children? Perfect sinless human life....and Jesus was “sent” from heaven to become an offering to God to pay for what Adam did. He did so willingly, knowing that he would save the human race from sin and death, and provide the basis to restore his Father’s purpose for the human race he created to live on earth forever.

My spiritual discernment comes from decades of deep Bible study and an early departure from any connection to Christendom, in which I was raised. I know what I left, and why I left it, as did all of Jesus’ first disciples when they became aware of why they were spiritually “lost” in a hopeless and doomed religious system, and who was “sent” to “find” them....the fine Shepherd.

I have an amazing relationship with my God and with the one he sent to teach us everything we need to know. You presume to know a lot of things about my brotherhood but we know nothing about yours....can we scrutinise your particular branch of Christianity and see if they stand up to being examined....?

Will you dodge this question again?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What about the “nonsense” you are promoting?

I'm not promoting any nonsense. But, thanks for your concern.

Who in Christendom agrees with your take on things?

Plenty of people agree with my take on things. We're not part of any organization like the Jehovah's Witnesses. We are just Christians with no need to identify with any fringe group.

What particular “branch” of “Christianity” do you subscribe to?

I am a Christian. I don't subscribe to any branch of Christianity. I believe it is foolish to subscribe to anything or anyone but the great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

I noticed you dodged that question...why?

What question? I dodge nothing. I answer whatever I want to answer. I'm not obligated to answer any of your questions.

Let’s put the spotlight on your denomination and see what truths they promote....

I promote the Bible and Christianity. Feel free to speak against the Bible and Christianity, but at your own peril.

Christ died, was buried for three days, and was then resurrected by his Father, as he foretold.....he remained for 40 days, ‘appearing’ to his apostles and disciples in order to prepare them for the rough road ahead of them......his ascension to heaven was witnessed by only his closest associates. The angels told them that he would return in “the same manner” as he left. And yet the return of Christ with his angels to destroy all of God’s enemies, was to be a global public spectacle. Observed by all, so that they panic in fear.
Care to explain that?

What is there to explain? Jesus is God and is fully capable of making Himself visible to all people when He returns. Why question that? He will indeed descend from heaven in the manner He ascended there (visibly and bodily).

He had told them that they would be “witnesses” of him “to the most distant part of the earth”, and stated that a “great tribulation” was coming....but that was still years away.
Christ died in 33CE, but the destruction of Jerusalem was not carried out until 70CE, when the Romans returned to finish what they started in 66CE.
The “tribulation” that befell Jerusalem was the most devastating in the history of God’s people, but if they had listened to Jesus and fled to the mountains, as he instructed, leaving their homes, businesses and possessions behind, they would have saved themselves.
Would that be the greatest tribulation in the history of mankind? Was the flood of Noah’s day? Or was that something yet future?

In the context of what Jesus was talking about in the Olivet Discourse it was the greatest tribulation of its kind in history. Nothing could be greater in scope than the flood of Noah's day, so Jesus was clearly not speaking in that context.

 

[Douggg]

Because this Almighty God is immortal, he cannot die, and therefore was never a human sacrifice because there is no way that he could be the equivalent of Adam. God’s law demanded equivalency. How could God become the equivalent of his own creation?

Hi Aunty Jane,,

I may be misunderstanding you, but are you of the view that Jesus is not God ?

If that is your view, I say we have to think back before anything existed but God. I don't think anyone can comprehend the how of God's always existence. God is so far above our ability to do so.

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So, lets look as what we can discern.

In John 16:28, Jesus speaking about Himself. "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father."

Well, what did Jesus mean by that highlighted in red ? We are told in John 1:10 that the world was made by Jesus.

So coming forth the Father is God Himself coming forth in a form that all which He would create would be able to perceive.

Thus, Jesus is the manifested form that God decided to present Himself to His creation (I am talking about the angels, men, all beings).

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In order to redeem man from the penalty of sin, Jesus the Lord God, entered the world, taking on the form of a man that He might die on the cross to atone for our sins.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay, are there islands (as it says in verse 20) that disappeared in the 20th century ? Did the great hail stone event of verse 21 take place in the 20th century ?

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Jay, the forum rules say don't make personal attacks on other posters.

Dougggggggggie, if you cannot reference the Rev 16:17-21 passage to reveal all of the prophecies the seventh Bowl Judgement reveals, then you are insulting not only my intelligence but yours as well.

An island represents a people group or nation/kingdom/empire and once again the islands fled away from each other.
A mountain represents religion and during the later part of the 20th century, and religion has faded in preference to becoming a secular world.

Now in verse 18: -

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

The Greek word "Seismos" is better understood to have the English meaning of "turmoil" which points us to WW1 and WW2 but because you have blindly accepted that the translators have not made a mistake, you are missing this link and understanding.

In verse 19 we are told: -

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

The great city, Jerusalem, was divided into three parts in 1948 by the UN and the control of the three partitions was Jordan, Britian and the UN.

The cities of the nations' fell in the middle east during WW1 when they were levelled by the artillery bombardment as the British Army took progressive control of the Otterman Empire.

In 1926 AD, Britian and France established a nation to have dominion over the land of Babylon. The name of this established nation was Iraq, which became the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy for God to once more to pour out the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Then in verse 21 we are told this: -

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Which occurred during WW1 and WW2 when artillery shelling and aerial bombardments fell from the sky like great hail, forcing people to hide in caves and shelters where people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail.

This is why we need to use our eyes and ears to understand what the scriptures are telling us which cannot always be understood as requiring a literal understanding. We really do need a God centred revelation.

 

[Douggg]

Dougggggggggie, if you cannot reference the Rev 16:17-21 passage to reveal all of the prophecies the seventh Bowl Judgement reveals, then you are insulting not only my intelligence but yours as well.

An island represents a people group or nation/kingdom/empire and once again the islands fled away from each other.
A mountain represents religion and during the later part of the 20th century, and religion has faded in preference to becoming a secular world.

Now in verse 18: -


The Greek word "Seismos" is better understood to have the English meaning of "turmoil" which points us to WW1 and WW2 but because you have blindly accepted that the translators have not made a mistake, you are missing this link and understanding.

In verse 19 we are told: -


The great city, Jerusalem, was divided into three parts in 1948 by the UN and the control of the three partitions was Jordan, Britian and the UN.

The cities of the nations' fell in the middle east during WW1 when they were levelled by the artillery bombardment as the British Army took progressive control of the Otterman Empire.

In 1926 AD, Britian and France established a nation to have dominion over the land of Babylon. The name of this established nation was Iraq, which became the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy for God to once more to pour out the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Then in verse 21 we are told this: -


Which occurred during WW1 and WW2 when artillery shelling and aerial bombardments fell from the sky like great hail, forcing people to hide in caves and shelters where people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail.

This is why we need to use our eyes and ears to understand what the scriptures are telling us which cannot always be understood as requiring a literal understanding. We really do need a God centred revelation.

Thanks Jay, for providing your interpretation and understanding of those verses. I disagree with all of you view, but at least now others can evaluate your interpretation and understanding for themselves.

 

[Jay Ross]

Thanks Jay, for providing your interpretation and understanding of those verses. I disagree with all of you view, but at least now others can evaluate your interpretation and understanding for themselves.

Dougggggg, that is because you have placed the timing of the events of the seventh bowl judgement at the end of the seventh age just before the final judgement, whereas I have placed the fulfilment of the prophetic events in the Seventh Bowl Judgement as having occurred during the 20th century.

I also know that the Sixth Bowl Judgement is presently unfolding at this time and that its completion will occur somewhere around the years 2044-2045 AD. But this understanding also does not fit with your future 1,000 years plus for when the 6th and 7th bowl judgements will occur according to your "diagrams."

Yes, other can evaluate my understanding and interpretations for themselves and in the process decide whether or not your prolific posts are also inline with the End Time prophecies.

Either one of us is right and the other is wrong, or we are both wrong. We both cannot be right.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Plenty of people agree with my take on things. We're not part of any organization like the Jehovah's Witnesses. We are just Christians with no need to identify with any fringe group.

Who is “we” if you cannot identify them? With whom do you worship? The non-denominationals? Those who just don’t talk about what they disagree with? (1 Cor 1:10)

Perhaps you are unaware that Jehovah’s Witnesses number over 9 million world wide....hardly a “fringe group”....and they are still preaching the same message of the Kingdom as they have been doing since the last days began. They use the same method as the first Christians did....door to door, (Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20) and wherever people are.

Where are the churches out preaching about the kingdom to their neighbors, as the first Christians did? (Matt 10:11-14) Most just sit in a building waiting for the sheep to wander in.....is that what Jesus taught us to do? (Matt 28:19-20)

I am a Christian. I don't subscribe to any branch of Christianity. I believe it is foolish to subscribe to anything or anyone but the great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

And if you don’t identify with any particular denomination, how do you regularly meet together as Paul admonished in Heb 10:24-25?....and “all the more so” he said, as we “beheld the day drawing near”.

What “day” was he speaking about, remembering that all the first Christians were Jewish.....what “day” were they told to expect? “The great and fear inspiring day of Jehovah” is what the prophets spoke about.

So, what is “Armageddon”?...mentioned in the Revelation as something monumental to occur in the future? The Revelation was written around 96CE....long after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE.

If Jesus returned tomorrow, who would he identify as his “sheep” as opposed to the ones he judges as “goats”? What is the difference? (Matt 25:31-46) It has to do with their actions, not just their beliefs.

I promote the Bible and Christianity. Feel free to speak against the Bible and Christianity, but at your own peril.

I never speak against the Bible or Christianity.....because after careful study I know what the Bible teaches and what the first Christians believed.....it’s nothing close to what Christendom offers its members who seem to know a lot about “what”...is in the Bible, but cannot explain “why”. If you do not understand the “why” of any Bible teaching...the “what” becomes meaningless.

Those in Christendom are not taught to think or reason, but to just “believe” whatever they are told, as if it’s impossible for the ones who taught them to be wrong....think again.

What is there to explain? Jesus is God and is fully capable of making Himself visible to all people when He returns. Why question that? He will indeed descend from heaven in the manner He ascended there (visibly and bodily).

For God to become a human and die is impossible for so many reasons.
Since equivalency was the basis for redemption, how could the immortal Creator ever be the equivalent of his own mortal creation? All Jesus needed to be was sinless. And God made sure that his transfer to the womb of Mary was a perfect conception, without a single strand of her DNA.

If Jesus was in any way equal to his Father as an immortal, the over-payment would be something like using 700 trillion cans of bug spray to kill one mosquito!
The very reason why Jesus could come to earth as one “sent” by his God and Father, was because he was not an immortal. He was granted immortality upon his resurrection as a reward for his successful mission on earth...but an immortal cannot die. If Jesus did not die the same death as Adam, the redemption fails and we are not saved.

Paul wrote at Rom 6:9...”For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is no longer master over him.”...and in 1 Tim 6:16...he speaks of God as....”the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.”
So Jesus was once mortal and is now immortal, just as his elect are also granted immortality upon their resurrection to heaven. Jesus was not resurrected bodily because the body he sacrificed was not taken back.
Life in heaven is in spirit form as “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the Kingdom. (1 Cor 15: 50-57)

Christ only “appeared” to his disciples after his resurrection, and in bodies that they did not always recognise. He did not stay with them as he had done for the three and a half years before.
Spirit beings have the capacity to materialise in visible form, as the Bible reveals. Gabriel for example appeared to both Daniel and Mary some 500 years apart. Jesus appeared and disappeared....only a spirit can do that.

In the context of what Jesus was talking about in the Olivet Discourse it was the greatest tribulation of its kind in history. Nothing could be greater in scope than the flood of Noah's day, so Jesus was clearly not speaking in that context.

Jesus was pointing to the future.....way into the future....to a time that mirrored the situation in the first century. We are living in that time right now......if you don’t believe that Jesus will soon manifest as judge, then nothing I say will convince you....except the event itself......like the first century Jews, you already know it all and have no need to accept anyone else’s word for anything. All the best with that.

Did you never ask why it took Messiah over four thousand years to come to man’s rescue in the first place? What is time to an eternal Being? He has a timetable that is certainly not in line with earth time. As Peter said...”one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.”...(2 Peter 3:8) ....echoing the words of Psalm 90:4...”For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past:, Just as a watch during the night.”

So you trying to suggest that things have already happened, doesn’t explain where we are now....
When do the words of the Lord’s Prayer come true....? With the coming of God’s Kingdom, his will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”.....where is the world of today in your scenario?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hi Aunty Jane,,

I may be misunderstanding you, but are you of the view that Jesus is not God ?

It is not my view, but the Bible’s clear teaching. Nowhere does Jesus ever say that he is God with a capital “G”. (John 10:31-26)

If that is your view, I say we have to think back before anything existed but God. I don't think anyone can comprehend the how of God's always existence. God is so far above our ability to do so.

We are finite beings at present and everything in our creation has boundaries and limits. Our lifespan is limited, but it was never supposed to be. It was sin that introduced death and we have been fighting with that reality ever since. Death to us is foreign because God did not design us to die. We, out of all creation, were “made in God’s image” so we alone were given the opportunity to live forever in mortal flesh.

All the humans had to do was obey one simple command that imposed no hardship on them whatsoever....and access to “the tree of life” would never have been denied. (Gen 3:22-24)

So, lets look as what we can discern.

In John 16:28, Jesus speaking about Himself. "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father."

Well, what did Jesus mean by that highlighted in red ? We are told in John 1:10 that the world was made by Jesus.

So coming forth the Father is God Himself coming forth in a form that all which He would create would be able to perceive.

That is one way of reading that statement...but saying that Jesus “came from his Father” is the same thing as saying that you came from your father....he is the one responsible for your conception....and therefore your existence. All living beings have a father....none could exist without one.
The angels in heaven all have the same Father and all came into existence the same way.....through the agency of God’s firstborn.

The way Jesus came into the world was by the operation of God’s spirit.....he transferred the lifeforce of his son into the womb of Mary so that her child was born as a perfect sinless human. He had to be the exact equivalent of Adam in order to pay the price of man’s redemption.....

God’s law was “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life”. Since all human life on earth was now tainted by sin, the redeemer had to come from outside the now defective human race to act as the rescuer, offering to God the exact payment for Adam’s sin.
Left to himself, man could never provide the only thing that could undo what Adam did....to cancel the debt by paying it. Out of love, Jesus volunteered to do that for us.

Thus, Jesus is the manifested form that God decided to present Himself to His creation (I am talking about the angels, men, all beings).

Where will I find that stated anywhere in the Bible? Nowhere does it say that God became flesh....and if you choose John 1:14 to prove it, think again.

Go back to John 1:1-3 and see what happened to the translation that most Bibles today retain....

The NASB renders those verses.....
“In the beginning was the Word, (ho logos) and the Word (ho logos) was with God, (ho theos) and the Word (ho logos) was God. (theos) He was in the beginning with God. (ho theos) All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”

In Greek, identification of Yahweh was by the use of the definite article “ho” (the) before the word “theos” (god) Look this up in an interlinear and see what was written and what was ignored by translators in order to support their doctrine.
So wherever you see “ho theos” that is where the divine name should be. When you see “theos” without the definite article, the context will indicate who is spoken about...but not once is Jesus ever referred to as “ho theos”....only as “theos” which in Greek means ‘any god or goddess or divine person’. There is no doubt that Jesus was divine, but nowhere does it state that he was an equal deity with his own God and Father.

Verse 14 states....“And the Word (ho logos) became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

Again we see that it was “ho logos” who became flesh not “ho theos”. The Word is described as having “glory as the only begotten from the Father”...again in non ambiguous language...he was God’s “only begotten son”...which is what he called himself.
So, “coming from the Father” simply means that he was “sent” as it clearly states in John 17:3....and this “knowing the only true God and the one he sent” is such an important belief that our eternal life hangs on it.

In order to redeem man from the penalty of sin, Jesus the Lord God, entered the world, taking on the form of a man that He might die on the cross to atone for our sins.

Again that is nowhere found in the Scriptures. Jesus, as God’s “firstborn”, came from heaven as a human son to pay for what Adam did to all his children.

Col 1:15-18 makes another clear statement.....speaking of Jesus Paul states....
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.” (NASB)

Read that passage carefully.....
Jesus is the visible “image of the invisible God”.....what is an “image”? What do you see in the mirror? It is your reflection but it’s not you. A photograph is an image, but it’s not you either. Jesus reflected his Father’s character and qualities perfectly.....but it didn’t make him God.

He is the “firstborn of ALL creation” which makes him older than any created thing....he was God’s first and only direct creation (Rev 3:14) which makes him unique......and was then used as the agency “through” whom all things were created.

Being an agent of his Father, doesn’t make him God either, since he was working with his Father, and no doubt following his directions carefully.....together, Father and son are the “us” and “our” in Gen 1:26.

It also says that creation was made “through him and for him”....so creation was to be God’s gift to his son....a son he was so very proud of. He is before all “things”, but this is because his God created him first.

How is Jesus “firstborn from the dead”....when he was certainly not the first person to be raised from the dead. Jesus was the first human raised to spirit life in heaven....this opened the way for other humans, called to rule with their King, to follow later, at his return.

And Jesus “will come to have the first place in everything”.....future tense....but how can that be if he already holds that position? There can be no one who is God the Father’s equal. (Psalm 83:18)

This is the difference between reading and comprehending what is actually said, rather than what you assume it says. Doctrine should never dictate belief...it must always be the other way around.

Please consider the evidence....and what statement the apostles collectively made concerning who was their God...
“For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” (1 Cor 8:5-6 (NASB)

Jesus was their “Lord” (not another name for God), but they only had ”one God, the Father”....Yahweh.

 

[Douggg]

Again that is nowhere found in the Scriptures. Jesus, as God’s “firstborn”, came from heaven as a human son to pay for what Adam did to all his children.

Jesus was their “Lord” (not another name for God), but they only had ”one God, the Father”....Yahweh.

That Jesus is God is stated by Jesus Himself in Ezekiel 39. Things to come, 7 years after the Gog/Magog event.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in text having returned to this world. The Jews (Judaism) presently don't believe Jesus is God, correct ?

But let's look at that verse, Ezekiel 39:22....to see how the Jews' view is going to change.


Ezekiel 39:
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So there is the statement in the bible, right there in Ezekiel 39:22, of Jesus saying who He is.

 

[Douggg]

@Aunty Jane

Let's look at these steps of analysis...

1. God existed before anything.

2. God came forth from Himself, as the Lord God, so that them He would create could perceive Him. Who them he would create, He would be Lord over them.

3. As the Lord God, He created everything.

4. Then later because man fell into sin, the Lord God entered this world, taking on the form of a man, called Jesus. Being a man, God in human form, Jesus became known as the Son of man, and the only begotten Son of God,

5. Jesus, following His time here on earth, returned to heaven to the Father (God, pre-existing creation), Who's throne in heaven, as an interface with God's in His beyond comprehension Supreme Being Self.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who is “we” if you cannot identify them?

Why do you ask dumb questions? I told you that I'm a Christian. So, "we" are Christians. Those who follow our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. What is hard to understand about this?

With whom do you worship? The non-denominationals?

Yes.

Those who just don’t talk about what they disagree with? (1 Cor 1:10)

Of course we don't all agree on literally everything, but we agree on the main things and can respectfully agree to disagree on the non-essentials.

Perhaps you are unaware that Jehovah’s Witnesses number over 9 million world wide....hardly a “fringe group”.

That's not many compared to how many Christians there are in the world.

...and they are still preaching the same message of the Kingdom as they have been doing since the last days began. They use the same method as the first Christians did....door to door, (Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20) and wherever people are.

That means nothing because they preach falsehood such as denying the deity of Jesus Christ and claiming that physical death frees people from sin rather than the blood of Christ (because of a terrible out of context interpretation of Romans 6:7).

Where are the churches out preaching about the kingdom to their neighbors, as the first Christians did? (Matt 10:11-14)

You expect me to know what all the churches in the world are doing? I know there's plenty of Christians out there preaching to the lost, so you are boring me with this holier than thou nonsense.

And if you don’t identify with any particular denomination, how do you regularly meet together as Paul admonished in Heb 10:24-25?....and “all the more so” he said, as we “beheld the day drawing near”.

LOL! Where did Paul say that we should identify with any particular denomination? Nowhere! You speak so much nonsense! I meet together with those who identify as Christians or followers of Christ. That is who Paul said we should be meeting together with.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That Jesus is God is stated by Jesus Himself in Ezekiel 39. Things to come, 7 years after the Gog/Magog event.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in text having returned to this world. The Jews (Judaism) presently don't believe Jesus is God, correct ?

Are you confusing Ezekiel, (God’s prophet) with Jesus Christ, just because he is called “son of man”?

Ezekiel 2:1-5....God speaks to Ezekiel....
“And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. And He said to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day. For they are impudent and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God.’ As for them, whether they hear or whether they refuse—for they are a rebellious house—yet they will know that a prophet has been among them.” (NKJV)
Ezekiel is addressed, not by his personal name, but as “Son of man [Ben adám].” Throughout the entire book of his prophecy Ezekiel is addressed ninety-three times in this form ofaddress. Only once again does the prophet’s personal name appear in the book, and this time in Ezekiel 24:24, where the prophet quotes Jehovah as saying to the house of Israel....
“Thus Ezekiel is a sign to you; according to all that he has done you shall do; and when this comes, you shall know that I am the Lord God.’ (Yahweh)” (NKJV)

“The Lord God” is Yahweh/Jehovah.

In this way no prominence is given to the prophet’s own name, but he is continually reminded of his lowly estate and origin. He is but an offspring of earthling man. A servant of his God.

Over six hundred and forty years later Jesus Christ is reported seventy-six times (from Matt 8:20 to John 13:31) as speaking of himself as “the Son of man.” But by this he is not comparing himself with Ezekiel, nor does this make Ezekiel a type of Christ. He is in human form.....but still “the Son of God”....”begotten” long before creation came into existence at his hand.

Ezekiel’s fellow exile Daniel, is also addressed as “son of man.” (Daniel 8:17) It is an expression of their humanity.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
So there is the statement in the bible, right there in Ezekiel 39:22, of Jesus saying who He is.

Since it is clear that this is not Jesus making the statements there, Ezekiel is acting as God’s prophet, speaking for him as all the prophets did. Expressing Jehovah’s words to his wayward people.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Aunty Jane

Let's look at these steps of analysis...

1. God existed before anything.

Yes, as an eternal and immortal God, nothing pre-existed him.

2. God came forth from Himself, as the Lord God, so that them He would create could perceive Him. Who them he would create, He would be Lord over them.

No...Jesus came forth from God. As an immortal, God cannot die, so sending himself, would have been ridiculous......he sent his most trusted son to do the job of taking on human flesh and dying the same death that Adam did. Otherwise the redemption was a fraudulent transaction....redemption requires a set price and God could not pay it because he cannot die. He “sent” his son, not himself.

3. As the Lord God, He created everything.

As I have mentioned previously, the Bible does not ever call Jesus “The Lord God”...that title is reserved only for the Father. The title “Lord” doesn’t mean “God” because it was used commonly in Bible times as a mark of respect. Slaves called their masters “Lord”...
Sarah called Abraham “Lord”, but she didn’t think he was God.

4. Then later because man fell into sin, the Lord God entered this world, taking on the form of a man, called Jesus. Being a man, God in human form, Jesus became known as the Son of man, and the only begotten Son of God,

And there is not a single verse in Scripture that says so. Jesus was created as “the son of God”.....the first and only direct creation of his God and Father, (Rev 3:14) which made him a unique “only begotten” son of God. (Monogenes theos) God-like...divine....but not God.
The Bible says that God has many “sons” but none are like his “firstborn”.

5. Jesus, following His time here on earth, returned to heaven to the Father (God, pre-existing creation), Who's throne in heaven, as an interface with God's in His beyond comprehension Supreme Being Self.

Jesus returned to his Father’s side...a position he occupied from the beginning of his existence.
He is said to be at his Father’s right hand......but can you find me a single verse that states that the holy spirit is at his left?

Can you tell me why John 17:3 tells us that we must “know the only true God AND the one he sent”? No mention of the third party again...but don’t you have to ask why, if this third “person” is equally God with the other two? How many “people” is God? (Deut 6:4)

Can you tell me why the apostles collectively stated that “the Father” was their “one God” and that Jesus was their “Lord”.....the title does not mean “God”. (1 Cor 8:5-6)

Over to you....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why do you ask dumb questions? I told you that I'm a Christian. So, "we" are Christians. Those who follow our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. What is hard to understand about this?

What is hard to understand is that not all “Christians” agree with other “Christians” and so Paul’s words at 1 Cor 1:10 become a sad joke.

Of course we don't all agree on literally everything, but we agree on the main things and can respectfully agree to disagree on the non-essentials.

Can you tell me what is “non essential” when it comes to the truth?
In my experience, when it comes to non-denominationals, when you raise an issue they just avoid it.
So where is the agreement that all Christians must have if they are to worship the true God acceptably?

Why did Jesus tell the Pharisees and Sadducees that they were in error, since they only disagreed on a few issues? Why did Jesus tell these religious leaders...

Matt 15:7-15...
“Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” (NKJV)

If the ones who teach you are not agreeing on all that is truth, then “blind leaders” will lead them all into the same “ditch”.
As Jesus points out at the judgment, when the professed “Christians” are trying vainly to offer their excuses.....

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt 7:21-23 NKJV)

How many among professed “Christians” even know what “the will of the Father” is...or what “the Kingdom of God” is....

Can you tell me?

That's not many compared to how many Christians there are in the world.

If we were in a majority, I’d be worried....Jesus said that ”few” (relatively speaking), will be saved.
I’d rather be among the “few” than the “many” who are all travelling down a road that doesn’t lead to anywhere good. (Matt 7:13-14)

That means nothing because they preach falsehood such as denying the deity of Jesus Christ and claiming that physical death frees people from sin rather than the blood of Christ (because of a terrible out of context interpretation of Romans 6:7).

Who told you that?....it’s nonsense. The Bible clearly states that Christ’s blood is what redeems mankind from sin and death....
What is not taken into account is one of the many false doctrines that permeates all false religions....and that is immortality of the soul. It is a universal belief among those whom satan has convinced that we “surely will not die”. Yet we all do...the same death that Adam and all his descendants die. It means time spent in Sheol/hades...translated as “the grave” in Jewish Scripture. A place from which all the dead are to be raised in the future, not immediately by the release of some spirit entity that inhabits the body, and flits off to destinations unknown.....because they don’t go to heaven or hell, which is another false belief common in pagan religions.

Since immortality of the soul makes the teaching of the resurrection redundant, most are unaware that death is actually death as Eccl 9:5, 6, 10 state....a belief held by the Jews and reinforced in their Scripture.

“For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.” (NKJV)

If the dead “know nothing” and are not remembered for long, and they can feel no emotions (even love) or do anything in this world again...the grave sound like a place to “sleep”.....just as Jesus said of his friend Lazarus. (John 11:11-14) He called him out of his grave in a resurrection...which is a return to life, not a continuation of it somewhere else. Where was Lazarus before Christ raised him?

Jesus will do the same to all the dead once his Kingdom is established over the earth. (John 5:28-29)

You expect me to know what all the churches in the world are doing? I know there's plenty of Christians out there preaching to the lost, so you are boring me with this holier than thou nonsense.

If you are all one brotherhood...yes. The commission to preach was given to all Christ’s disciples and it was to continue until “the end”. (Matt 24:14: 28:19-20)
Surely they would have called at your door if they had been active...but they are clearly “missing in action”.

LOL! Where did Paul say that we should identify with any particular denomination? Nowhere! You speak so much nonsense!

In the first century there were no denominations and all met together in unity of belief and practice.
When problems or differences arose, they were not just left to create divisions.....they were brought up to the elders and apostles in Jerusalem for clarification and a clear decision....as we saw in the circumcision issue.
You think God’s spirit tells one group of Christians one thing, and another contradictory thing to another group?God’s spirit unites his people...divisions are a symptom that God’s spirit is absent.

I meet together with those who identify as Christians or followers of Christ. That is who Paul said we should be meeting together with.

If you don’t discuss doctrines and come together in agreement and unity....how can you qualify to call yourselves “Christians” at all? (1 Cor 1:10) Unity was their identification.....disunity is proof that not all who claim to be “Christians“.....actually are.....and the fact that they are in the majority is another red flag. It’s not the “many” but the hated “few” who are the genuine ones. (John 15:18-21)

Apparently ‘the pot can call the kettle black’. The Religious leaders did that to Jesus and his disciples.....and were so successful that God’s own people put their Messiah to death....and even cursed themselves and their children with his blood! (Matt 27:25)

Be careful of overconfidence....(1 Cor 10:12) In a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it seems. Why do you think the master deceiver has the majority of the human race on the wrong road?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is hard to understand is that not all “Christians” agree with other “Christians” and so Paul’s words at 1 Cor 1:10 become a sad joke.

That isn't my problem. I know the truth and whether someone agrees with me or not is out of my control.

Can you tell me what is “non essential” when it comes to the truth?

When I talk about essentials I'm talking about what is essential to being saved and being a true Christian. Here is what Paul wrote...

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

I can have fellowship with anyone who believes that "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" and that "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.". With the understanding that works do not save anyone, but only faith and God's grace. Unfortunately for you, you don't understand that confessing that Jesus is Lord includes confessing that He is God because the Greek word for "Lord" that Paul used there is "kyrios" which is a word that is used to refer to The Lord God.

In my experience, when it comes to non-denominationals, when you raise an issue they just avoid it.

I couldn't care less about your experience. It has nothing to do with me.

So where is the agreement that all Christians must have if they are to worship the true God acceptably?

See above.

Why did Jesus tell the Pharisees and Sadducees that they were in error, since they only disagreed on a few issues? Why did Jesus tell these religious leaders...

Matt 15:7-15...
Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.” Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” (NKJV)

If the ones who teach you are not agreeing on all that is truth, then “blind leaders” will lead them all into the same “ditch”.
As Jesus points out at the judgment, when the professed “Christians” are trying vainly to offer their excuses.....

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt 7:21-23 NKJV)

How many among professed “Christians” even know what “the will of the Father” is...or what “the Kingdom of God” is....

What are you going on about here? The Pharisees and Sadducees were not professed Christians, so why are you talking about them while making a point about professed Christians who are not true Christians?

Can you tell me?

If we were in a majority, I’d be worried....Jesus said that ”few” (relatively speaking), will be saved.
I’d rather be among the “few” than the “many” who are all travelling down a road that doesn’t lead to anywhere good. (Matt 7:13-14)

He was speaking relatively there, but you can't even discern that. While it's relatively few compared to all people, Revelation 7:9 says that a great multitude of people that no one can count from all nations will be saved.

Who told you that?....it’s nonsense. The Bible clearly states that Christ’s blood is what redeems mankind from sin and death....

The Jehovah's Witnesses official website says that and you've said it yourself before. Based on a faulty understanding of Romans 6:7, JWs claim that one's physical death frees them from sin. That is false. That verse is talking about becoming spiritually dead to the wages of sin and being spiritually alive in Christ because of belonging to Jesus Christ.

What is not taken into account is one of the many false doctrines that permeates all false religions....and that is immortality of the soul. It is a universal belief among those whom satan has convinced that we “surely will not die”. Yet we all do...the same death that Adam and all his descendants die.

We all physically die. Soul sleep is just another false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If the souls of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead, then God is not their God. But, He is because only their bodies are dead, not their souls and spirits.

It means time spent in Sheol/hades...translated as “the grave” in Jewish Scripture. A place from which all the dead are to be raised in the future, not immediately by the release of some spirit entity that inhabits the body, and flits off to destinations unknown.....because they don’t go to heaven or hell, which is another false belief common in pagan religions.

Since immortality of the soul makes the teaching of the resurrection redundant, most are unaware that death is actually death as Eccl 9:5, 6, 10 state....a belief held by the Jews and reinforced in their Scripture.

“For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.” (NKJV)

If the dead “know nothing” and are not remembered for long, and they can feel no emotions (even love) or do anything in this world again...the grave sound like a place to “sleep”.....just as Jesus said of his friend Lazarus. (John 11:11-14) He called him out of his grave in a resurrection...which is a return to life, not a continuation of it somewhere else. Where was Lazarus before Christ raised him?

The dead knowing nothing is related to no longer living "under the sun" and knowing the things that they knew and experiencing the things they experienced while being physically alive on the earth. As is so often the case with JWs like you, you are missing the context. Revelation 6:9-11 portrays the souls of physically dead believers as having consciousness.

Jesus will do the same to all the dead once his Kingdom is established over the earth. (John 5:28-29)

If you are all one brotherhood...yes. The commission to preach was given to all Christ’s disciples and it was to continue until “the end”. (Matt 24:14: 28:19-20)
Surely they would have called at your door if they had been active...but they are clearly “missing in action”.

In the first century there were no denominations and all met together in unity of belief and practice.
When problems or differences arose, they were not just left to create divisions.....they were brought up to the elders and apostles in Jerusalem for clarification and a clear decision....as we saw in the circumcision issue.
You think God’s spirit tells one group of Christians one thing, and another contradictory thing to another group?God’s spirit unites his people...divisions are a symptom that God’s spirit is absent.


If you don’t discuss doctrines and come together in agreement and unity....how can you qualify to call yourselves “Christians” at all? (1 Cor 1:10) Unity was their identification.....disunity is proof that not all who claim to be “Christians“.....actually are.....and the fact that they are in the majority is another red flag. It’s not the “many” but the hated “few” who are the genuine ones. (John 15:18-21)

Apparently ‘the pot can call the kettle black’. The Religious leaders did that to Jesus and his disciples.....and were so successful that God’s own people put their Messiah to death....and even cursed themselves and their children with his blood! (Matt 27:25)

Be careful of overconfidence....(1 Cor 10:12) In a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it seems. Why do you think the master deceiver has the majority of the human race on the wrong road?

I don't need to heed any warnings from someone as deceived as you are.

 

[Jay Ross]

Thanks Jay, for providing your interpretation and understanding of those verses. I disagree with all of your view, but at least now others can evaluate your interpretation and understanding for themselves.

Be careful Dougg, everybody is also evaluating, and I believe that your theories are coming up short because you have openly stated that your views do not agree with what is recorded in the scripture which is what I had based my explanation upon for all to read.

If they agree with me, then well and good, if they disagree with me, I trust that they are able to present their rebuttal out of their understanding showing the reasoning as to why they may disagree.

Goodbye Douggggggie

 

[ewq1938]

No...Jesus came forth from God. As an immortal, God cannot die, so sending himself, would have been ridiculous......

He could have inhabited a mortal human body which could die. Jesus only died in the sense that his human body died, not he himself dying. The one called Jesus cannot die anymore than his Father can die, but either of them could have had a human body that dies. The Son was chosen for this task. This type of fting is the same fort all of us, where only the body dies not us, soul and spirit etc.