The extortion gospel - "believe or burn" - not really a choice

[St. SteVen]

The extortion gospel - "believe or burn" - not really a choice​

Is the gospel preached from most pulpits really a choice?
What are the stated consequences for refusing the "free gift" of eternal life?

The "believe or burn" gospel amounts to extortion.
A decision based on fear of the stated consequences for refusal.

- Does God honor a decision based on fear?
- Does God support the "believe or burn" gospel?
- If so, what sort of God is He?

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

 

[Behold]

- Does God support the "believe or burn" gospel?

New International Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

New American Standard Bible
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

NASB 1995
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

NASB 1977
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Legacy Standard Bible
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[Jack]

The extortion gospel - "believe or burn" - not really a choice​

Is the gospel preached from most pulpits really a choice?
What are the stated consequences for refusing the "free gift" of eternal life?

The "believe or burn" gospel amounts to extortion.
A decision based on fear of the stated consequences for refusal.

- Does God honor a decision based on fear?
- Does God support the "believe or burn" gospel?
- If so, what sort of God is He?

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

You must have RIPPED out the Bible comments of Jesus that you don't like.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

 

[Hiddenthings]

The extortion gospel - "believe or burn" - not really a choice​

Is the gospel preached from most pulpits really a choice?
What are the stated consequences for refusing the "free gift" of eternal life?

The "believe or burn" gospel amounts to extortion.
A decision based on fear of the stated consequences for refusal.

- Does God honor a decision based on fear?
- Does God support the "believe or burn" gospel?
- If so, what sort of God is He?

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

I often wonder what bubble you exist in and then I remember you are antiestablishment which is a good cause if it leads you into truth.

The Bible consistently presents the choice as life or death, not life or endless torment:

• “The wages of sin is death” (Rom 6:23) - read all of Romans 6 to learn about the true Atonement
• “God so loved the world… that whoever believes in Him should not perish” (John 3:16) - John asks you to come and see!
• “The soul who sins shall die” (Ezek 18:4) Ezekiel revealed the judgements of God upon a wayward people whose end was final.

Death, destruction, and exclusion from life are the stated consequences, not divine sadism.

You are like a pendulum that has swung far left when the truth is in the centre.

Not all saved!...be one of them SteVen...

However, God still sends rain on the just and unjust...to know the difference is where the rubber meets the road. You and @quietthinker need to learn this.

 

[Jack]

I often wonder what bubble you exist in and then I remember you are antiestablishment which is a good cause if it leads you into truth.

The Bible consistently presents the choice as life or death, not life or endless torment:

Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER!

Yes those knowingly returning to the ground will be forgotten

Psalm 30:9 –“What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you?”

 

[Jack]

Yes those knowingly returning to the ground will be forgotten

And tormented FOREVER!

Psalm 30:9 –“What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you?”

 

[Hiddenthings]

And tormented FOREVER!

Can dust praise Him Jack?

 

[Jack]

Can dust praise Him Jack?

Luke 16:19-26
19 The rich man died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hell, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

 

[Hiddenthings]

Luke 16:19-26
19 The rich man died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hell, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

Can dust praise Him Jack?

 

[quietthinker]

I often wonder what bubble you exist in and then I remember you are antiestablishment which is a good cause if it leads you into truth.

The Bible consistently presents the choice as life or death, not life or endless torment:

• “The wages of sin is death” (Rom 6:23) - read all of Romans 6 to learn about the true Atonement
• “God so loved the world… that whoever believes in Him should not perish” (John 3:16) - John asks you to come and see!
• “The soul who sins shall die” (Ezek 18:4) Ezekiel revealed the judgements of God upon a wayward people whose end was final.

Death, destruction, and exclusion from life are the stated consequences, not divine sadism.

You are like a pendulum that has swung far left when the truth is in the centre.

Not all saved!...be one of them SteVen...

However, God still sends rain on the just and unjust...to know the difference is where the rubber meets the road. You and @quietthinker need to learn this.

No doubt you know that proof is not the convincing factor for most, particularly the religious. A person can win an argument but not be persuasive. So why is it that attempts to change another persons view is attempted with 'proof'?
When a persons mind is made up, so to speak, not even one rising from the dead is sufficient to shift the perspective.

The qualification of 'deception' is when one is sufficiently convinced of a falsehood to irreversibly trust it is the truth.

We are all on our own when it comes to how and what we embrace or reject in our innermost selves irrespective of the image we desire others to have of us.

.....anyway, this obvious blurb is not intended to tell you how to suck eggs!

 

[Jack]

Can dust praise Him Jack?

Why are you evading what Jesus said?

Luke 16:19-26
19 The rich man died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hell, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

You're question is EVASIVE to be kind.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Why are you evading what Jesus said?

Luke 16:19-26
19 The rich man died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hell, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

You're question is EVASIVE to be kind.

I simply wanted to highlight, once again, your inability to answer even basic questions. When this happens repeatedly over the course of a person’s life, it should eventually prompt self-reflection and a willingness to change.

 

[Jack]

I simply wanted to highlight, once again, your inability to answer even basic questions. When this happens repeatedly over the course of a person’s life, it should eventually prompt self-reflection and a willingness to change.

Actually I think you're totally EVADING what Jesus said about EVERLASTING Hell Fire! A sure road to Hell! Are you trying to lead people to Hell?

 

[Hiddenthings]

No doubt you know that proof is not the convincing factor for most, particularly the religious. A person can win an argument but not be persuasive. So why is it that attempts to change another persons view is attempted with 'proof'?
When a persons mind is made up, so to speak, not even one rising from the dead is sufficient to shift the perspective.

The qualification of 'deception' is when one is sufficiently convinced of a falsehood to irreversibly trust it is the truth.

We are all on our own when it comes to how and what we embrace or reject in our innermost selves irrespective of the image we desire others to have of us.

.....anyway, this obvious blurb is not intended to tell you how to suck eggs!

Your response reminded me of an important lesson the Apostle Paul taught me many years ago.

Set the immediate context aside for a moment.

In Romans 14:5, Paul writes: ‘One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind.’

Paul was not encouraging you to base you faith on SteVen’s views, or anyone else’s. Rather, the call is to seek God diligently, to prove all things by His Word, so that each believer may be fully persuaded in their own mind. This principle is true of matters of conscience however matters of core doctrine Paul would judge more harshly as the evidence leaves us without excuse.

Take @Jack as an example. He is a hyper-literalist, which reflects a weak conscience and an inability to interpret the symbolic meaning in Scripture. Having been deceived into reading literalism into passages that require interpretation, he struggles to mature in the things of God.

Can he change?
Will he change?

He can, but only by renewing his mind and setting aside strongly held beliefs will he be able to gain a proper understanding of the subject of the state of the dead. Until this happens he will misrepresent the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and always be stunted in growth.

In the end whether it is you, Jack, SteVen or I - we can only "prove all things" from the inspired Word of God for who has the Mind of God?

 

[quietthinker]

Your response reminded me of an important lesson the Apostle Paul taught me many years ago.

Set the immediate context aside for a moment.

In Romans 14:5, Paul writes: ‘One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind.’

Paul was not encouraging you to base you faith on SteVen’s views, or anyone else’s. Rather, the call is to seek God diligently, to prove all things by His Word, so that each believer may be fully persuaded in their own mind. This principle is true of matters of conscience however matters of core doctrine Paul would judge more harshly as the evidence leaves us without excuse.

Take @Jack as an example. He is a hyper-literalist, which reflects a weak conscience and an inability to interpret the symbolic meaning in Scripture. Having been deceived into reading literalism into passages that require interpretation, he struggles to mature in the things of God.

Can he change?
Will he change?

He can, but only by renewing his mind and setting aside strongly held beliefs will he be able to gain a proper understanding of the subject of the state of the dead. Until this happens he will misrepresent the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and always be stunted in growth.

In the end whether it is you, Jack, SteVen or I - we can only "prove all things" from the inspired Word of God for who has the Mind of God?

Can you change?
Will you change?
Why put the spotlight on others?

 

[Jack]

Take @Jack as an example. He is a hyper-literalist,

That's me! I believe exactly what God said, the Bible.

which reflects a weak conscience and an inability to interpret the symbolic meaning in Scripture.

That's JW doctrine. Whenever they don't like what God said it's "symbolic". See how God reveals His Truth and exposes unbelievers!

Having been deceived into reading literalism into passages that require interpretation, he struggles to mature in the things of God.

So eternal salvation is not literal? You have my eternal sympathy!

Can he change?
Will he change?

Nah, I'll keep believing what Jesus said. Hell Fire is FOREVER!

He can, but only by renewing his mind and setting aside strongly held beliefs will he be able to gain a proper understanding of the subject of the state of the dead. Until this happens he will misrepresent the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and always be stunted in growth.

IOW listening to doctrines of demons, like One 2 question!

In the end whether it is you, Jack, SteVen or I - we can only "prove all things" from the inspired Word of God for who has the Mind of God?

IOW you still EVADE what Jesus said about EVERLASTING Hell Fire! Gee, how many have you led to Hell Fire? How much blood will you have on your hands on Judgment Day?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Can you change?
Will you change?
Why put the spotlight on others?

Jack is an extreme example of someone who struggles to learn and grow. No matter how often the truth is presented, he reverts to the falsehoods he was taught as a child. The same scrutiny has been applied to SteVen and to you multiple times; the evidence has been clear and irrefutable, yet you continue to deny it and respond with one-liners.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@quietthinker, is there a reason you consistently avoid engaging with the deeper wisdom of Scripture and instead focus on trivial matters in our discussions? It’s rather like being served a carefully prepared three‑course meal, only to respond, when it’s your turn, by offering Maccas. Is it because your pantry lacks more nourishing substance?

 

[quietthinker]

Jack is an extreme example of someone who struggles to learn and grow. No matter how often the truth is presented, he reverts to the falsehoods he was taught as a child. The same scrutiny has been applied to SteVen and to you multiple times; the evidence has been clear and irrefutable, yet you continue to deny it and respond with one-liners.

So you can't and wont change but others need to?