The deepest human desire. - The longing to be safe at home.

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, how would you "prove" that you were born again?
The evidence is pretty clear. There is a noticeable change in the individual.
The proof is in the pudding.

I don’t think that answers my question....”evidence” is offered to Jesus at the judgment...he rejects it outright. (Matt 7:21-23) So is that really evidence? I see something more sinister in a world ruled by the master of deception.

A change in an individual can be seen in a wide range of scenarios, where such an individual simply made a choice to clean up their lives. AA for example, uses whatever “god” you accept as your own, to help you facilitate change in your life and then whoever your god is, will get the credit and maybe you will become attached to that one in your choice of worship? You changed your life by modifying your behaviour with good results, but is that proof of God being the reason for the change? Or was it simply self motivation?

What “pudding” is that proof of?

It is a verification or repentance.
They have turned away from sin and turned toward Christ.

Again I see the deceiver at work....I see Christendom as his most successful tool. The devil is a mimic and he will masquerade as any god you want him to be, even the trinitarian god of Christendom, in order for you not to find “the only true God”, and direct your worship to Him.

All worship that does not go to the true God, goes to the only other “god” there is by default. This “god” has the ability to “blind the minds” of those he sees as easy targets (2 Cor 4:3-3).....those who operate on emotions, rather than solid Bible knowledge. There is only one truth and I know that Christendom, in all its divisions, cannot provide it. It’s a tangled mess of conflicting opinions. Can God be the author of that?

The divided ”church” system doesn’t require its adherents to possess knowledge...at least not outside of its set doctrines. No one is encouraged to ask the hard questions, because they don’t have the answers.
Many know what their churches teach, or what they want to believe, but they know very little about what the entirety of Scripture teaches......It is one story, with one author.

We are living in the last chapter of his book. If our name is not in his other “book” we will be denied what God’s Kingdom will provide. So what is God’s Kingdom and what does it provide?

If we don’t know the truth, but rely on our church to provide only limited knowledge of all that is contained in God’s word, we may well find ourselves on the receiving end of Jesus’ words...”I never knew you”....followed by marching orders.

No, no...
To renewed a relationship with God is to be born again.

How do you renew a relationship with a God you didn’t know in the first place?
What is the purpose of being “born again”. Why did Jesus use that terminology?

Why did you not address the points I raised?
There is no logic...no “big picture” in your response.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus discourse with Nicodemus is worth a reread.
There are no prerequisites including theological understandings or none at all, there are no formulas.
Jesus is presented to the person, God's Spirit impacts the heart and choices are made.

I know it suits you to take that position, but reading about Christ’s encounter with Nicodemus is revealing....

Only about six months after Jesus started his earthly ministry, Nicodemus recognized that Jesus ‘as a teacher who had come from God.’ Impressed by the miracles that Jesus recently performed in Jerusalem at the Passover of 30 C.E., Nicodemus comes, under the cover of darkness, to confess his belief in Jesus and to learn more about this teacher.
Why did he come to Jesus under cover of darkness?

As a ruler of the Jews and a teacher in Israel, Nicodemus had a good knowledge of God’s Word. He identified Jesus as a teacher “sent by God”. Nicodemus was a spiritual man, and he was unusually humble.
How difficult it must have been for a member of the highest court of the Jews to acknowledge a lowly carpenter’s son as a man sent from God! All these qualities are invaluable in a disciple of Jesus.

Two and a half years later, at the Festival of Booths, Nicodemus attends a meeting of the Sanhedrin. At this time, Nicodemus is still “one of them.” The chief priests and the Pharisees send officers to arrest Jesus.
Them saying that “Not one of the rulers or of the Pharisees has put faith in him, has he? But this crowd that does not know the Law are accursed people” sparks something in Nicodemus and he cannot hold back any longer. He speaks up in Jesus’ defence.

Some six months later, on Passover Day of 33 C.E., Nicodemus sees Jesus’ body being taken down from the stake. He joins Joseph of Arimathea, another member of the Sanhedrin, in preparing Jesus’ body for burial. Yet, like Joseph, Nicodemus has not yet identified himself as a follower of Christ. He has believed all this time but has not publicly acknowledged his position. John 19:38-39 explains why he may have held back....”fear of the Jews”. It was not a nice place to be as Jesus’ agonising death, proved.

So there is a lesson there for us too. Did Nicodemus get to understand the meaning of being “born again”? It doesn’t say, nor does it say what became of this man who hesitated to declare his faith out of fear, or for other reasons not stated...regardless of what may have happened if he had acted on what he learned from his first encounter with Jesus, he could well have become a great asset as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

People may have similar experiences or different. Some overt, some covert. Either way, a person is conscious of change. It is not culturally or educationally connected as it transcends any and all boundaries men establish.
It is accompanied by a profound sense of security and peace which inevitably is/ will be tested.

I am sure that satan has the ability to reproduce such feelings....the one thing that all of Christ’s disciples needed was knowledge...which is what Nicodemus sought. No doubt he had heard Jesus preach and seen his miracles, but he wanted to know more. This hunger for spiritual truths is the basis for all of Christ’s disciples. They needed to learn these truths and be baptized publicly to demonstrate a change in their lifestyle, in imitation of their master. It was a public declaration of their faith.

God does not sneak up on people and imbue them with his spirit unawares and uninvited. It has to be a willing decision, made out of a heart that is drawn to God and his Christ, first. Knowledge was the important thing, given in the preaching work that Jesus assigned to all his disciples. (Romans 10:13-15; Matt 10:11-14)

Its purpose is to align the spirit of men/ women with God's Spirit and purposes. Fundamentally it turns the 'Queen Mary' going one direction and turns it to another.

Consider the account in Acts 10 of Peter sharing the story of Jesus in a Gentiles house. That whole family was turned around.....to the total surprise of the Jewish cohort.

What are you missing in that account QT? Read it again and see that Cornelius was given a vision by God, which corresponded to a vision given to Peter. Cornelius was a seeker, and he was genuine in his care for the Jewish people....he prayed, and was guided to the true God....Peter in turn was guided to Cornelius. This was the first gentile to convert to Christianity without first needing to convert to Judaism. Peter was entering the home of a gentile, something Jews would never have done. (Acts 10:28) God had opened a door that had previously been closed, fulfilling Peter’s words at verses 34-35.

I find convenient meanings put into things that were never there...it is typical of all all who subscribe to their own ideas about what Jesus taught. Why can’t we let the Scriptures speak for themselves?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your attempts to play down what Jesus said was absolutely essential for one to understand and enter into the kingdom of God is because you don't have the faith that God could do that for you if you asked, yet He promised the holy Spirit to all who would ask. Does a father refuse good gifts to his children? Does he give a scorpion if you ask for a fish? This has nothing to do with emotion. It's about God wanting a relationship with you and longing to reveal the truth and reality of the gospel. This has nothing to do with the church you belong to, the translation of the bible you trust in, or the number of bible studies you've done. This is about your eternal destiny and what the Creator of the universe has done for you and what you can partake of today.

Please read my response to the previous posts.....no one is “playing down” anything.
It is clear to me that no one can come to the son without an invitation from his God and Father. (John 6:44; 65) That invitation comes after one has shown interest in becoming a disciple of Christ.

To understand what it means to “enter the Kingdom of God”, you first have to understand what the Kingdom is...what it’s purpose is, and who will reign with Christ in that Kingdom. What positions do they hold? And over whom do they rule with their “joint heir” Jesus Christ.

There are 144,000 “joint heirs” with the heavenly Bridegroom Jesus Christ, and no one holding false religious beliefs will be among them. They are a distinct heavenly “body” of rulers.....something brand new. Being no longer of human nature, they come to have the “divine nature.” They have the prospect of becoming a “new creation.” (2 Peter 1:4; 2 Cor 5:17) They have met the requirements for a disciple on earth to enter into the heavenly kingdom.

They were “born again,” “born from water and spirit,” “born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (John 1:12-13; 3::3, 5) Water baptism has to come first.....only then can they receive the Holy Spirit. God does not take the first step...he waits for us to show him that we are interested in wanting to learn more about his son.

In Rom 6:5, 8, the spirit-begotten disciples of Christ say: “If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection. Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.”

Like Jesus Christ, his spirit-begotten disciples must be “faithful even to death” in the flesh. (Rev 2:10)
For them to be united with him “in the likeness of his resurrection,” they also, like him, have to be “made alive in the spirit,” (1 Pet 3:18) as spirit “sons of God” by adoption. (Romans 8:14-17)

At 1 Cor 15: 42-54, we can read about the kind of resurrection they will receive. This is not the resurrection that takes place in John 5:28-29. This is “the first resurrection”. (Rev 20:6)

Only the elect are chosen for this role, and only after they have proven worthy of their calling.

 

[quietthinker]

I know it suits you to take that position, but reading about Christ’s encounter with Nicodemus is revealing....

Only about six months after Jesus started his earthly ministry, Nicodemus recognized that Jesus ‘as a teacher who had come from God.’ Impressed by the miracles that Jesus recently performed in Jerusalem at the Passover of 30 C.E., Nicodemus comes, under the cover of darkness, to confess his belief in Jesus and to learn more about this teacher.
Why did he come to Jesus under cover of darkness?

As a ruler of the Jews and a teacher in Israel, Nicodemus had a good knowledge of God’s Word. He identified Jesus as a teacher “sent by God”. Nicodemus was a spiritual man, and he was unusually humble.
How difficult it must have been for a member of the highest court of the Jews to acknowledge a lowly carpenter’s son as a man sent from God! All these qualities are invaluable in a disciple of Jesus.

Two and a half years later, at the Festival of Booths, Nicodemus attends a meeting of the Sanhedrin. At this time, Nicodemus is still “one of them.” The chief priests and the Pharisees send officers to arrest Jesus.
Them saying that “Not one of the rulers or of the Pharisees has put faith in him, has he? But this crowd that does not know the Law are accursed people” sparks something in Nicodemus and he cannot hold back any longer. He speaks up in Jesus’ defence.

Some six months later, on Passover Day of 33 C.E., Nicodemus sees Jesus’ body being taken down from the stake. He joins Joseph of Arimathea, another member of the Sanhedrin, in preparing Jesus’ body for burial. Yet, like Joseph, Nicodemus has not yet identified himself as a follower of Christ. He has believed all this time but has not publicly acknowledged his position. John 19:38-39 explains why he may have held back....”fear of the Jews”. It was not a nice place to be as Jesus’ agonising death, proved.

So there is a lesson there for us too. Did Nicodemus get to understand the meaning of being “born again”? It doesn’t say, nor does it say what became of this man who hesitated to declare his faith out of fear, or for other reasons not stated...regardless of what may have happened if he had acted on what he learned from his first encounter with Jesus, he could well have become a great asset as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

I am sure that satan has the ability to reproduce such feelings....the one thing that all of Christ’s disciples needed was knowledge...which is what Nicodemus sought. No doubt he had heard Jesus preach and seen his miracles, but he wanted to know more. This hunger for spiritual truths is the basis for all of Christ’s disciples. They needed to learn these truths and be baptized publicly to demonstrate a change in their lifestyle, in imitation of their master. It was a public declaration of their faith.

God does not sneak up on people and imbue them with his spirit unawares and uninvited. It has to be a willing decision, made out of a heart that is drawn to God and his Christ, first. Knowledge was the important thing, given in the preaching work that Jesus assigned to all his disciples. (Romans 10:13-15; Matt 10:11-14)

What are you missing in that account QT? Read it again and see that Cornelius was given a vision by God, which corresponded to a vision given to Peter. Cornelius was a seeker, and he was genuine in his care for the Jewish people....he prayed, and was guided to the true God....Peter in turn was guided to Cornelius. This was the first gentile to convert to Christianity without first needing to convert to Judaism. Peter was entering the home of a gentile, something Jews would never have done. (Acts 10:28) God had opened a door that had previously been closed, fulfilling Peter’s words at verses 34-35.

I find convenient meanings put into things that were never there...it is typical of all all who subscribe to their own ideas about what Jesus taught. Why can’t we let the Scriptures speak for themselves?

Too many words AJ. What is it with the need to make so many words? Is it thought that greater insight is communicated with volume?

Consider all the many words you've made in all your posts and yet none have supplied any insight to shift my view in your direction. What they have done if anything is confirm your muddled puddle of understanding.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The longing to be safe ? why only at home ?

I would say the reason to do with safety comes from being truly educated in how to deal with anything. as one has a handle on reality and can deal with issues and not just run away and hide, or only just able to take cheap shots like a mongrel dog.

I have seen that many people only want to hide their children from reality and to be as gutless as they can become. so they totaly fear reality. and live in a fantasy world. if religioust they only have fantasy gods ! Idols !

 

[Aunty Jane]

Too many words AJ. What is it with the need to make so many words? Is it thought that greater insight is communicated with volume?

Has the Bible got too many words for you too QT? Why would explanations require few words just because you have a short attention span...?
Didn’t Jesus spend a lot of time teaching his audience things that they thought they already knew? He was a Jew teaching fellow Jews....you apparently have nothing to learn.....which is entirely your problem.

You can put both fingers in your ears, but it won’t make any difference to the way I respond to people who think they know more than they actually do. Someone else may benefit from my research.

Consider all the many words you've made in all your posts and yet none have supplied any insight to shift my view in your direction. What they have done if anything is confirm your muddled puddle of understanding.

LOL...if my responses were only for you, I would have given up a long time ago....when we have conversations on these boards, there are many more readers that there are posters....so my replies, whilst answering your one liners, can be read by any who want to know more than you do and who don’t have a problem reading more than one paragraph. I guess you don’t read books?

 

[quietthinker]

Has the Bible got too many words for you too QT? Why would explanations require few words just because you have a short attention span...?
Didn’t Jesus spend a lot of time teaching his audience things that they thought they already knew? He was a Jew teaching fellow Jews....you apparently have nothing to learn.....which is entirely your problem.

You can put both fingers in your ears, but it won’t make any difference to the way I respond to people who think they know more than they actually do. Someone else may benefit from my research.

LOL...if my responses were only for you, I would have given up a long time ago....when we have conversations on these boards, there are many more readers that there are posters....so my replies, whilst answering your one liners, can be read by any who want to know more than you do and who don’t have a problem reading more than one paragraph. I guess you don’t read books?

Oh AJ....conceit rules I see!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Oh AJ....conceit rules I see!

Any excuse for a cheap shot eh? You can dish it out but you can’t take it back....We’re Aussies mate....we aren’t thin skinned. Are you gonna beat me into submission with sarcasm? It won’t work.

It’s called confidence QT...nothing to do with arrogance or conceit....I think you see only what you want to see...and again that is your choice. No body is forcing you to read anything.

If nothing will alter your worldview, I will simply answer the substance of your posts more broadly, thereby not obligating you to read too many words....I know how taxing it is for you...

 

[quietthinker]

Any excuse for a cheap shot eh? You can dish it out but you can’t take it back....We’re Aussies mate....we aren’t thin skinned. Are you gonna beat me into submission with sarcasm? It won’t work.

It’s called confidence QT...nothing to do with arrogance or conceit....I think you see only what you want to see...and again that is your choice. No body is forcing you to read anything.

If nothing will alter your worldview, I will simply answer the substance of your posts more broadly, thereby not obligating you to read too many words....I know how taxing it is for you...

Not intended to be cheap or mean, just direct and honest. I do understand this could be misunderstood and I take a risk that it is, but being Aussies as you say, take it on the chin and do a self honest evaluation. If it's true yet uncomfortable you have learned something. If it's not true then let it go through to the keeper.
Ohhhh, and by the way, 'not taking it back' as you say, hmmmm, I think that's questionable....unless you want to take issue with my thinking on this.

Re answering the substance of my posts, yeahhhh, be succinct ie, cross the street opposite you. No need to go around the block....and patronising is unnecessary as well.

 

[Jack]

It's almost interesting watching Bible attackers arguing with each other. Where's STV and O2q when you need them?

 

[Brakelite]

I know it suits you to take that position, but reading about Christ’s encounter with Nicodemus is revealing....

Only about six months after Jesus started his earthly ministry, Nicodemus recognized that Jesus ‘as a teacher who had come from God.’ Impressed by the miracles that Jesus recently performed in Jerusalem at the Passover of 30 C.E., Nicodemus comes, under the cover of darkness, to confess his belief in Jesus and to learn more about this teacher.
Why did he come to Jesus under cover of darkness?

As a ruler of the Jews and a teacher in Israel, Nicodemus had a good knowledge of God’s Word. He identified Jesus as a teacher “sent by God”. Nicodemus was a spiritual man, and he was unusually humble.
How difficult it must have been for a member of the highest court of the Jews to acknowledge a lowly carpenter’s son as a man sent from God! All these qualities are invaluable in a disciple of Jesus.

Two and a half years later, at the Festival of Booths, Nicodemus attends a meeting of the Sanhedrin. At this time, Nicodemus is still “one of them.” The chief priests and the Pharisees send officers to arrest Jesus.
Them saying that “Not one of the rulers or of the Pharisees has put faith in him, has he? But this crowd that does not know the Law are accursed people” sparks something in Nicodemus and he cannot hold back any longer. He speaks up in Jesus’ defence.

Some six months later, on Passover Day of 33 C.E., Nicodemus sees Jesus’ body being taken down from the stake. He joins Joseph of Arimathea, another member of the Sanhedrin, in preparing Jesus’ body for burial. Yet, like Joseph, Nicodemus has not yet identified himself as a follower of Christ. He has believed all this time but has not publicly acknowledged his position. John 19:38-39 explains why he may have held back....”fear of the Jews”. It was not a nice place to be as Jesus’ agonising death, proved.

So there is a lesson there for us too. Did Nicodemus get to understand the meaning of being “born again”? It doesn’t say, nor does it say what became of this man who hesitated to declare his faith out of fear, or for other reasons not stated...regardless of what may have happened if he had acted on what he learned from his first encounter with Jesus, he could well have become a great asset as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

I am sure that satan has the ability to reproduce such feelings....the one thing that all of Christ’s disciples needed was knowledge...which is what Nicodemus sought. No doubt he had heard Jesus preach and seen his miracles, but he wanted to know more. This hunger for spiritual truths is the basis for all of Christ’s disciples. They needed to learn these truths and be baptized publicly to demonstrate a change in their lifestyle, in imitation of their master. It was a public declaration of their faith.

God does not sneak up on people and imbue them with his spirit unawares and uninvited. It has to be a willing decision, made out of a heart that is drawn to God and his Christ, first. Knowledge was the important thing, given in the preaching work that Jesus assigned to all his disciples. (Romans 10:13-15; Matt 10:11-14)

What are you missing in that account QT? Read it again and see that Cornelius was given a vision by God, which corresponded to a vision given to Peter. Cornelius was a seeker, and he was genuine in his care for the Jewish people....he prayed, and was guided to the true God....Peter in turn was guided to Cornelius. This was the first gentile to convert to Christianity without first needing to convert to Judaism. Peter was entering the home of a gentile, something Jews would never have done. (Acts 10:28) God had opened a door that had previously been closed, fulfilling Peter’s words at verses 34-35.

I find convenient meanings put into things that were never there...it is typical of all all who subscribe to their own ideas about what Jesus taught. Why can’t we let the Scriptures speak for themselves?

Nothing of what you have said counters or contradicts the born again experience. All you are doing is adding fluff in an attempt to deviate people away from the main issue. People need a change of heart. A change of mind. True repentance. A turning away from the world in mindset and choosing to embrace the principles and truths of the kingdom of God and His Gospel. You filing out the story of Nicodemus and Cornelius doesn't explain the miracle of the radical about turn, along with the willingness to face persecution and loss of position either in court or the military, for the sake of truth.

In his sinless state, man held joyful communion with Him “in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” Colossians 2:3. But after his sin, he could no longer find joy in holiness, and he sought to hide from the presence of God. Such is still the condition of the unrenewed heart. It is not in harmony with God, and finds no joy in communion with Him. The sinner could not be happy in God’s presence; he would shrink from the companionship of holy beings. Could he be permitted to enter heaven, it would have no joy for him. The spirit of unselfish love that reigns there—every heart responding to the heart of Infinite Love—would touch no answering chord in his soul. His thoughts, his interests, his motives, would be alien to those that actuate the sinless dwellers there. He would be a discordant note in the melody of heaven. Heaven would be to him a place of torture; he would long to be hidden from Him who is its light, and the center of its joy. It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship. The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them.
It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.” “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Job 14:4; Romans 8:7. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness.
The Saviour said, “Except a man be born from above,” unless he shall receive a new heart, new desires, purposes, and motives, leading to a new life, “he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3, margin. The idea that it is necessary only to develop the good that exists in man by nature, is a fatal deception. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:7. Of Christ it is written, “In Him was life; and the life was the light of men”—the only “name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” John 1:4; Acts 4:12.
It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, “I consent unto the law that it is good.” “The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.” But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, “I am carnal, sold under sin.” Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?” Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” John 1:29.

 

[St. SteVen]

A change in an individual can be seen in a wide range of scenarios, where such an individual simply made a choice to clean up their lives. AA for example, uses whatever “god” you accept as your own, to help you facilitate change in your life and then whoever your god is, will get the credit and maybe you will become attached to that one in your choice of worship? You changed your life by modifying your behaviour with good results, but is that proof of God being the reason for the change? Or was it simply self motivation?

That's an interesting point.
What is the difference between the born again experience and a self-determined choice of an individual to clean up their life?

Perhaps nothing, but Jesus requires it.
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”- John 3:3 NIV

Before Christ's ministry, John the Baptist was administering the baptism of repentance. (a turning)
And James reminds us that faith without works (confirmation of repentance) is dead.

So, while a "born again" (start over) experience can be had through various means, it is a requirement for faith in Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

How do you renew a relationship with a God you didn’t know in the first place?

That is a reference to renewing the relationship that was lost at the Fall.
Fellowship with God was broken due to original sin.
That is the relationship that is renewed.

 

[St. SteVen]

That's an interesting point.
What is the difference between the born again experience and a self-determined choice of an individual to clean up their life?

Perhaps nothing, but Jesus requires it.
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”- John 3:3 NIV

Before Christ's ministry, John the Baptist was administering the baptism of repentance. (a turning)
And James reminds us that faith without works (confirmation of repentance) is dead.

So, while a "born again" (start over) experience can be had through various means, it is a requirement for faith in Christ.

Born again. And not without tremendous effect. Born again of imperishable seed.

1 Peter 1:23 NIV
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed,
but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That's an interesting point.
What is the difference between the born again experience and a self-determined choice of an individual to clean up their life?

Perhaps nothing, but Jesus requires it.
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”- John 3:3 NIV

Before Christ's ministry, John the Baptist was administering the baptism of repentance. (a turning)
And James reminds us that faith without works (confirmation of repentance) is dead.

So, while a "born again" (start over) experience can be had through various means, it is a requirement for faith in Christ.

My view on what it means to be “born again” is vastly different to Christendom’s. For the majority in the ”church” system, regardless of denomination, the expectation is for all Christians to go to heaven....but according to Scripture that is not the case....only those invited to heaven will “enter” and “see” the kingdom of God.

So what is the “Kingdom of God”? Also called “the Kingdom of heaven” by John B (Matt 3:2)

In Isaiah’s prophesy he spoke about a “government” being “on the shoulders” of the “Prince of Peace”. (Isa 9:6)
The word “government there is “miśrâ” and it means...”rule, dominion, government”

In verse 7 it says...
“There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.” (NASB)

So God’s Kingdom is a government with the “Prince of Peace” at the helm. It will rule the whole world in “justice and righteousness” from its establishment over the redeemed human race, and this rulership will last forever. Who accomplishes this? “The LORD (Yahweh) of hosts.”

This Kingdom is the re-stablishment of God’s rule over mankind, crushing failed human rulerships out of existence and replacing them with one righteous government for all mankind, as it was supposed to be in the beginning. (Foretold in Dan 2:44)

Psalm 2 was a far reaching prophesy concerning this rulership that God would place in the hands of his son.
It shows the nations being in tumult, and world rulers banding together against God and his anointed king. (Also spoken about in Revelation as the prelude to Armageddon.)
God laughs at them and vents his anger on them.....

“But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.” . . . ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession. . . . ‘You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’” . . . Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!” (NASB)

As a Jew, David had an entirely earthly view of the Kingdom, as did Jesus’ first disciples, but with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, these disciples were anointed for a role in the government/kingdom that was foretold.....but even though its rule would be over the earth, it’s location would be in heaven.

Hebrews 12:22-24...
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.” (NASB)

Those looking to geographical Israel and fleshly Jews as the fulfilment of the Messianic prophesied are looking in the wrong place, and concentrating on the wrong people.

“The Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) are Christ’s anointed disciples who are heaven bound....those who are personally chosen by God for the role of “kings and priests”, ruling over the earth. (Rev 14:1-5; Rev 20:6)

That means that Jesus’ words to his early disciples....those who were to be “born again”.....had a different destination to those resurrected later, back to the earth. (John 5:28-29) There are clearly two resurrections...the “first resurrection” is to heaven, (necessitating a rebirth to spirit life, as all those in the heavenly realm must be in spirit form, as God is) and the general resurrection of the dead takes place once the Kingdom’s rule is established on the earth.

So being “born again” is not just something that happens to all who claim Jesus as their Lord. (Matt 7:21-23) It’s not just a change of personality and direction in life. It is an anointing that gives these ones an inordinate desire to be where their Lord Jesus is.....to go and live where he went to “prepare a place” for them. That anointing was a token or guarantee of their choosing. The NIV calls it a “deposit”.

Paul wrote to the Ephesians....
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph 1:13-14 ESV)
It was implanted as an expectation of something not yet acquired.

You had to hear the message of the gospel first, and then respond to it. There was no being “born again” out of the blue....the Holy Spirit does not arrive, unannounced and uninvited. Those who have that experience need to rethink the basis for it.

Those who will be “born again” are resurrected in a completely new body.....the kind that Christ received at his resurrection. They die a death like his and receive a resurrection like his....which is called being “baptized into his death”.

There is so much confusion about the “Kingdom”...what it is...where it is...what it’s for...and who goes there?

The Bible answers all those questions if we really study it, rather than a cursory reading through one of Christendom’s many lenses.

 

[TazzJazz]

The story of the prodigal, the parable of the lost son,
is a beautiful picture of this longing to be safe at home.
What I would call the deepest human desire.

Can you imagine a stronger human desire?

This is why I don't buy the idea that any human would not want to be home in heaven.
That anyone would be unhappy to arrive in the place prepared for them. Home.

Luke 15:17-20 NIV
“When he came to his senses, he said,
‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare,
and here I am starving to death!
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him:
Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’
20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off,
his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him;
he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

[

What about Psalm 115:16 & Isaiah 45:18?

Get rid of wicked people (Psalm 37:10,11) & no more death (Revelation 21:3,4), living on this Earth would be great! It will be!
No more fear, even animals will be at peace w/ men! -- Isaiah 11:6-9

 

[TazzJazz]

Hell will be filled with BILLIONS of humans who don't believe in Hell. Payday is dead ahead.

PITY those who convince them there is no eternal Hell!

Man, you worship one FIENDISH God!
How is "death and Hell thrown /cast into the Lake of Fire"? You really don't understand, like the millions in christendom. Yet you're so sure! Amazing

 

[Jack]

Man, you worship one FIENDISH God!

You mean God of the Bible Who drowned all but 8 and burned all but 4 in Sodom alive, "making them an example"?

How is "death and Hell thrown /cast into the Lake of Fire"?

How? lol

Why don't you quote Scripture? Do you need permission from the GB JW masters?

You really don't understand, like the millions in christendom. Yet you're so sure! Amazing

I do understand! Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people there is no eternal Hell Fire!

 

[TazzJazz]

Why don't you quote Scripture?

I was hoping you'd look it up.

But just like before, you ignore the question.

Have a good day.

 

[Jack]

I was hoping you'd look it up.

But just like before, you ignore the question.

Have a good day.

I looked it up many times. What would you like to know about the Bible? Jesus is God? Hell Fire is FOREVER?