Maybe I Am Not Understanding the Post Tribulation Rapture. - Can You Help?

[The Light]

There will be some Christians still alive when Jesus comes. The text CLEARLY says that they will be caught up TOGETHER with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. That means the dead in Christ and those who are alive when Jesus comes are caught up to meet Him TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME. Very simple. You are missing something obvious here and the only explanation for that is your extreme doctrinal bias.

1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The alive that remained will be caught together with them in the clouds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The alive that remained will be caught together with them in the clouds.

It does not say "the alive that remained". You are twisting the text. It says those who are alive and remain until Jesus comes will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. That's one event involving both the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive when Christ returns being caught up from earth together at the same time to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[The Light]

It does not say "the alive that remained". You are twisting the text. It says those who are alive and remain until Jesus comes will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. That's one event involving both the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive when Christ returns being caught up from earth together at the same time to meet the Lord in the air.

From what I remember, you don't think the feasts of God have anything to do with what is to come. If I am remembering wrong, I apologize.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

From what I remember, you don't think the feasts of God have anything to do with what is to come. If I am remembering wrong, I apologize.

You are remembering correctly. We're under the new covenant now. The feasts were an old covenant thing.

 

[Davy]

Exactly. John just saw future events.


The seals are not opened so the events have not happened yet.

When each seal, which John had a vision of, is actually opened, the event will occur.

It's actually more basic than that.

The Seals of Rev.6 are like declarations of events, SIGNS of the end leading up to Lord Jesus' return. They directly parallel the 7 Signs Jesus gave His disciples in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Not all events in the Rev.6 Seals happen in the order as they are written. For example the 'assumed'... 1st Seal about the rider on the white horse with a bow of cheap fabric and a crown represents the coming false-Messiah at the end, playing God in Jerusalem. That false-Messiah actually appears on one of the latter Seals (6th). And Rev.6:1 does not specifically say that is the 1st Seal, it is only assumed... that it is.

Rev 6:1-2
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
KJV

We know that rider is not Lord Jesus' coming, even though Lord Jesus comes riding a white horse per Rev.19. Lord Jesus' coming is the LAST event of the Seals.

Thus Jesus gave us the Seals in the same manner as He gave His disciples upon the Mount of Olives the 7 Signs of the end. That is why both His Olivet discourse and Rev.6 parallels.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's actually more basic than that.

The Seals of Rev.6 are like declarations of events, SIGNS of the end leading up to Lord Jesus' return. They directly parallel the 7 Signs Jesus gave His disciples in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Not all events in the Rev.6 Seals happen in the order as they are written. For example the 'assumed'... 1st Seal about the rider on the white horse with a bow of cheap fabric and a crown represents the coming false-Messiah at the end, playing God in Jerusalem. That false-Messiah actually appears on one of the latter Seals (6th). And Rev.6:1 does not specifically say that is the 1st Seal, it is only assumed... that it is.

Rev 6:1-2
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
KJV

We know that rider is not Lord Jesus' coming, even though Lord Jesus comes riding a white horse per Rev.19. Lord Jesus' coming is the LAST event of the Seals.

Thus Jesus gave us the Seals in the same manner as He gave His disciples upon the Mount of Olives the 7 Signs of the end. That is why both His Olivet discourse and Rev.6 parallels.

LOL. I can't believe some of the nonsense I see on this forum. You deny that the seals occur in the order they are listed. Douggg tries to claim that the 7th trumpet sounds before the 5th trumpet. Some of you need to take a class in basic math and learn how to count.

Revelation 6:1
Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. 3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

After this it describes Him opening the third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh seals, so it's very obvious that the seal He opens in Revelation 6:1 is the first seal and that event happens before any of the events related to the rest of the seals.

 

[ewq1938]

The great tribulation begins when the beast sets up the abomination of Desolation. The great tribulation is when the beast is killing Jews and Christians and many Jews become Christians.

There's nothing written that says anything about Jews being killed or converting to Christianity during the trib.

 

[JLB]

The dead in Christ rise first. The alive remain.

When Jesus returns for the alive that remain, He will bring the dead with Him.

‘Yes. Amen

This all occurs at His coming; The Second Coming of Christ.

 

[The Light]

There's nothing written that says anything about Jews being killed or converting to Christianity during the trib.

Rev 12
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 12
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

All of Rev 12 is BEFORE the trib. The last verse identifies the war (the trib) is against Christians, not those of Judaism.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

‘Yes. Amen

This all occurs at His coming; The Second Coming of Christ.

He is claiming that Jesus first comes for the dead in Christ and gathers them to Himself and those believers who are alive at that time remain on the earth and he claims that Jesus some time later comes again for those who remained on the earth when the dead in Christ were previously caught up to Christ. So, he believes in two separate future comings of Christ.

 

[JLB]

He is claiming that Jesus first comes for the dead in Christ and gathers them to Himself and those believers who are alive at that time remain on the earth and he claims that Jesus some time later comes again for those who remained on the earth when the dead in Christ were previously caught up to Christ. So, he believes in two separate future comings of Christ.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Right. Scripture never says He will appear a third time.

 

[The Light]

All of Rev 12 is BEFORE the trib. The last verse identifies the war (the trib) is against Christians, not those of Judaism.

How can Revelation 12 be before the tribulation given this verse?

Rev 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Additionally, how can Rev 12 be before the tribulation and then you say this? The last verse identifies the war (the trib) is against Christians, not those of Judaism.

The woman is Irael. The woman's seed are the 12 tribes across the earth.

 

[The Light]

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Right. He will come a second time for those look for Him. It is the Church that is looking for Him. After He comes for the Church, there will be 144,000 first fruits from the twelve tribes. Acceptable first fruits are a guarantee of a harvest. Part of Israel will have its eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. We are warned not to be ignorant of this mystery.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the trump of God or voice of God, Jesus will also return at the 6th seal for the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman. The seed of the woman will look up at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The woman, those of the nation of Israel will remain on the earth in her place of protection during the 7th seal wrath of God.

 

[Davy]

How can Revelation 12 be before the tribulation given this verse?

Rev 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Additionally, how can Rev 12 be before the tribulation and then you say this? The last verse identifies the war (the trib) is against Christians, not those of Judaism.

The woman is Irael. The woman's seed are the 12 tribes across the earth.

The symbolic 'woman' is not just about the 'seed' of Israel. It is about Christ's Church in that latter 1260 day period. It's kind of difficult to stray into men's doctrines when one actually stays with the actual written Bible Scripture...

Rev 12:6-17
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

That is not just about the 'seed' of Israel only. It is also about Christ's Church. Per the Book of Hosea, God foretold what He would do with the ten northern tribes of Israel in their being scattered to the "wilderness", put for new lands where they would put away their Baal idols and instead believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ. They would become the western Christian nations, fulfilling the "multitude of nations" prophecy about the seed of Ephraim per Genesis 48. That happened when the ten tribes in majority were scattered to the West among the Gentiles, and both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles would become Christ's Church.


7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

That has yet... to happen today. Satan and his host of angels are to be cast out of the heavenly dimension and into our earthly dimension, at the end of this world. The next verses reveals that timing...

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

As long as Satan is allowed in Heaven, he accuses us before God's throne when we mess up. Once Satan is cast down to this earth, and no longer allowed in heaven, that accusing of the brethren before God's throne will stop.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

That is about the saints who are delivered up to give a Witness against the beast at the end, per Mark 13. That Witness for Jesus will be by The Holy Spirit, and heard around the world (televised).

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

That "short time" is about the "great tribulation" which Lord Jesus said He shortened for the sake of His elect. That "great tribulation" of Matthew 24 and the Book of Daniel was originally represented by a 1260 day period, the latter half of the symbolic "one week" (7 years) of Daniel 9:27. Jesus shortened it to... _____________?

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Again sorry, but that symbolic "woman" means Christ's Church on earth also. The idea that the Church is not on earth for that is a doctrine from men, and not God's Word.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

That timing is the latter half of the Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week", a 1260 day period also known as the "great tribulation". Christ is to come at the very end of that period to gather His saints (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

That flood out of the serpent's mouth (i.e., Satan), represents LIES that cause DECEPTION. That was our Lord Jesus' 1st SIGN of warning to His Church about the very end of this world, per Matthew 24, to not allow any man to deceive us.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

What is the idea of a flood used for what comes out of the mouth of that serpent? It is also used in Revelation 9 of what comes out of the mouths of the locusts also. That flood symbolizes the "great tribulation" at the end of this world, and is symbolically linked to the time of Noah's flood and the ark, and how long the ark was upon the height of the flood waters.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

See there? For this Revelation 12 prophecy to be only about the Jews of the "house of Judah", that "testimony of Jesus Christ" would not be a part of this, for the majority of the Jews still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

 

[The Light]

The symbolic 'woman' is not just about the 'seed' of Israel.

The woman is the Jews that live in national Israel.

The seed of the woman are the 12 tribes across the earth. In other words those of the 12 tribes that are not living in the nation of Israel.

It is about Christ's Church in that latter 1260 day period. It's kind of difficult to stray into men's doctrines when one actually stays with the actual written Bible Scripture...

Rev 12:6-17
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

That is not just about the 'seed' of Israel only. It is also about Christ's Church. Per the Book of Hosea, God foretold what He would do with the ten northern tribes of Israel in their being scattered to the "wilderness", put for new lands where they would put away their Baal idols and instead believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ. They would become the western Christian nations, fulfilling the "multitude of nations" prophecy about the seed of Ephraim per Genesis 48. That happened when the ten tribes in majority were scattered to the West among the Gentiles, and both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles would become Christ's Church.

After the Church is raptured before the great tribulation, part of Israel will have its blindness removed.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The ones that have their blindness removed will be Jews. They become Christians and are the second harvest.

Again sorry, but that symbolic "woman" means Christ's Church on earth also. The idea that the Church is not on earth for that is a doctrine from men, and not God's Word.

There are two folds. The first fold is the Gentiles which hear His voice. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, the second fold will be the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

See there? For this Revelation 12 prophecy to be only about the Jews of the "house of Judah", that "testimony of Jesus Christ" would not be a part of this, for the majority of the Jews still reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

Yes, the Jews are currently blinded to fact that Jesus is the Messiah. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes blindness is remove from part of Israel.

We are warned not to be ignorant of this fact.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can Revelation 12 be before the tribulation given this verse?

Rev 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Additionally, how can Rev 12 be before the tribulation and then you say this? The last verse identifies the war (the trib) is against Christians, not those of Judaism.

The woman is Irael. The woman's seed are the 12 tribes across the earth.

You don't read scripture carefully enough. The woman is not national Israel, as you believe. The woman is spiritual Israel. The woman's children are identified as Jesus Himself and those who follow Him.

Revelation 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 12:17 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right. He will come a second time for those look for Him. It is the Church that is looking for Him. After He comes for the Church, there will be 144,000 first fruits from the twelve tribes.

You have the firstfruits being gathered after the Church. That makes no sense. You obviously don't even know what the term "firstfruits" means. If there were two separate groups of God's people that will be gathered, which there are not, the firstfruits would be the first group, not the second.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg tries to claim that the 7th trumpet sounds before the 5th trumpet.

No, you are not being accurate of what I write. It is the time frame of the third woe "event" of the 7th trumpet that encompasses the woe "events" of the 5th and 6th trumpets.