"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[amigo de christo]

You pass the test.
Let's see what the other member thinks about this "WORD".

What we know for sure is that it was God.
And then it became flesh.

now lets examine The SPIRIT and WHAT JESUS HIMSELF said about THE SPIRIT .
HE is WITH YOU
and shall be IN you .
I shall SEND the comforter ,
HE shall guide you into all truth . I WILL NOT leave you comfortless , I WILL COME UNTO YOU .
SO who is that SPIRIT
SOUNDS LIKE IT IS JESUS .
And lets finish this
ME AND MY FATHER SHALL COME TO HIM . wait
that sounds like GOD , HIS SPIRIT . of course it is .
Folks that deny The diety of CHRIST , I AM very afraid are DENYING GOD .
man could not do
no mere prophet could have done
No angel could have done
WHAT HE WHO CREATED ALL COULD AND DID DO .
OH YES
THE VERY WORD OF GOD DID INDEED become flesh and REMEMBER
not only was the WORD in the beginning
and all things made by HIM
NOT ONLY was THE WORD with GOD
IT SAYS and the WORD was GOD .

 

[amigo de christo]

You pass the test.
Let's see what the other member thinks about this "WORD".

What we know for sure is that it was God.
And then it became flesh.

and now for an example of UNBELIEF that JESUS corrected thomas for .......
Thomas DID NOT BELEIVE JESUS had been ressurected .
TILL JESUS appeared to HIM and said Touch my hands , thrust your hands into my side
and stop being FAITHLESS .
JESUS sure did correct error .
Startled and amazed thomas
THEN FELL
before the feet of JESUS and said a phrase
that has become hate speech to many
MY LORD AND MY GOD .
AND JESUS DID NOT DO as the angel did to john who kneeled before it had done .
THAT angel said GET UP , WORSHIP GOD .
ANY GUESSES ON WHY JESUS DIDNT SAY GET UP AND WORSHIP GOD TO THOMAS .
well cause it looks LIKE THOMAS WAS ALREADY DOING SO at HIS FEET .

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

That day better come fast Trevor!
Been studying the bible 50 years and there are not many left.

Perhaps I have fewer days as I am now 81 y.o. with some failing health, but I was brought up in the belief of One God the Father and my belief has been consolidated over the years, especially when I was 19 y.o. and our Youth Leader gave an introduction to the Yahweh Name and its meaning at a Young People's weekend in the Southern Highlands of NSW Australia.

WHAT was that WORD??

I am not sure if you are willing to start by giving a proper consideration to a similar or parallel concept introduced in Proverbs 8, where we are introduced to the Wise Woman WISDOM, who was with Yahweh in the creation. WHO or What was that WISDOM??

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Perhaps I have fewer days as I am now 81 y.o. with some failing health, but I was brought up in the belief of One God the Father and my belief has been consolidated over the years, especially when I was 19 y.o. and our Youth Leader gave an introduction to the Yahweh Name and its meaning at a Young People's weekend in the Southern Highlands of NSW Australia.

I am not sure if you are willing to start by giving a proper consideration to a similar or parallel concept introduced in Proverbs 8, where we are introduced to the Wise Woman WISDOM, who was with Yahweh in the creation. WHO or What was that WISDOM??

Kind regards
Trevor

I asked you first!
Why not just reply?

What or who is THE WORD in John 1:1 and John 1:14

Then I'll be happy to reply.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You can correct me Im wrong, Im going by hearsay on another site.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who speak on behalf of the Catholic Church yet have NO idea what they're talking about.

A couple of protestants stated we are all catholics in respect of we are christians, I think (think) they were using the term catholic to mean universal or something like that. But we are not all ROMAN catholics. In respect to the difference concerning the word christian, it depends who you ask. I've come across catholics who believe no protestant can be saved and protestants who believe no catholic can be saved/be christians

First of all – not only CAN Catholics be Christian – we ARE Christian. In fact, long before there was any other denomination - we were the very FIRST Christians. The Catholic church is the original tree from which Protestantism splintered. That’s just a fact of history.

Secondly – There is NO such thing as the “Roman” Catholic Church. There is only the Catholic Church.
“Roman” (Latin) simply refers to the Liturgical Rite – of which there are about Twenty that comprise the ONE Catholic Church. There is also the Byzantine Rite, Coptic, Melkite, Maronite and Ruthenian, to name a few. The differences are largely cultural, not doctrinal. We are ALL unified and in full communion.

Thirdly – Protestants are not Catholics. Even though we are all Christians – they have self-separated from the Church. Christ’s Church is ONE (John 17:20-23, 1 Cor. 12) – not many . . .

Finally – as to who is saved and who is not – that is between that person and God. Nobody has the right to declare another person “Saved” or condemned because ONLY God knows what is in the heart.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Thirdly – Protestants are not Catholics. Even though we are all Christians – they have self-separated from the Church. Christ’s Church is ONE (John 17:20-23,

I think you are using John17:20-23 incorrectly to make your point

 

[saved by grace 101]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who speak on behalf of the Catholic Church yet have NO idea what they're talking about.

First of all – not only CAN Catholics be Christian – we ARE Christian. In fact, long before there was any other denomination - we were the very FIRST Christians. The Catholic church is the original tree from which Protestantism splintered. That’s just a fact of history.

Secondly – There is NO such thing as the “Roman” Catholic Church. There is only the Catholic Church.
“Roman” (Latin) simply refers to the Liturgical Rite – of which there are about Twenty that comprise the ONE Catholic Church. There is also the Byzantine Rite, Coptic, Melkite, Maronite and Ruthenian, to name a few. The differences are largely cultural, not doctrinal. We are ALL unified and in full communion.

Thirdly – Protestants are not Catholics. Even though we are all Christians – they have self-separated from the Church. Christ’s Church is ONE (John 17:20-23, 1 Cor. 12) – not many . . .

Finally – as to who is saved and who is not – that is between that person and God. Nobody has the right to declare another person “Saved” or condemned because ONLY God knows what is in the heart.

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU MAY THEY ALSO BE IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one AS AS we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to COMPLETE UNITY. John17:20-23



According to Jesus, believers can be in Father and Son as they are in each other. How can believers be in Father and Son? Only through the Holy Spirit. 'JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU MAY THEY ALSO BE IN US

How can believers be as one?

Only through the Holy Spirit, there is no other way, of one heart and one mind in the Spirit, in complete unity.

Then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. Phil2:2

And Jesus prayed: That they(believers) may be one AS AS we are one

Its all about the Holy Spirit

 

[saved by grace 101]

Thirdly – Protestants are not Catholics. Even though we are all Christians – they have self-separated from the Church. Christ’s Church is ONE (John 17:20-23, 1 Cor. 12) – not many . . .

This is what your church states:

CCC 2068, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”

So your church states the TC are obligatory, salvation is attained through faith, Baptism and obeying the TC.
Whereas, Paul states we must die to the law in order to bear fruit for God, we are released from it and serve in the new way of the Spirit NOT the old way of the written code.
So I don't think Paul would have been happy with your churches view of how salvation is achieved!
And please don't say Rom7:4-6 doesn't refer to the TC, I can easily prove it does!!

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I asked you first!
Why not just reply?

Because it would not initially help you unlock your particular way of deduction concerning John 1:1,14. I will answer my own question and leave you to contemplate John 1:14 in the coming years.

WHO or What was that WISDOM??

The Wise Woman WISDOM in Proverbs 8 is not a literal woman, a woman standing in the street advocating the need to acquire Wisdom, but WISDOM is a personification of God's character of Wisdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Because it would not initially help you unlock your particular way of deduction concerning John 1:1,14. I will answer my own question and leave you to contemplate John 1:14 in the coming years.

The Wise Woman WISDOM in Proverbs 8 is not a literal woman, a woman standing in the street advocating the need to acquire Wisdom, but WISDOM is a personification of God's character of Wisdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

Did the Woman in Proverbs 8 become flesh?

If she had.....would she have been divine/deity?

Interesting that you can explain a verse in the OT which is NOT under discussion...
but you're unable to explain John 1:1 and 1:14.

THE WORD in John 1:1 is indeed something within God just like wisdom is in Proverbs. We'll go with your explanation which is valid.

Do you know about Divine Simplicity?

God is not a part of anything..nothing is a part of Him.

Whatever God is, He is that quality COMPLETELY.

We cannot say that God HAS wisdom...
we must say that God IS wisdom.
Wisdom is God.

Are you willing to apply your very principle to THE WORD?

THE WORD is part of God.
THE WORD IS God.

THE WORD did, in fact, become flesh.

That flesh is called JESUS.

THAT is the "particular way of deduction".

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Did the Woman in Proverbs 8 become flesh?

Yes.
Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Another OT concept that helps to understand John 1:1,14 is the following:
Isaiah 55:8–11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Lizbeth]

Everyone on this Forum who is Christian and knows scripture KNOWS that Jesus was referring to HIS BODY.
It is His Body that was raised after 3 days.

Let's look at the verses again:

John 2:14-21
18 The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?"
19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20 The Jews then said, "It took forty-six * * years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.


JESUS stated that the TEMPLE was His body.

Our body is also the temple of God.
BUT JESUS was speaking about HIS BODY which was going to be resurrected in three days.


Once again, the NT proves you to be wrong:


The NT teaches that Jesus was raised by:
THE FATHER
THE SON
THE HOLY SPIRIT


THE FATHER
Galatians 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead


THE SON
John 2:19
19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

John 10:18
18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.


THE HOLY SPIRIT
Romans 8:11
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.


All three Persons raised Jesus from the dead.
All three are of the same nature and will....
they work together because God is One.



Jesus raised Himeslf from the dead.
Man cannot do this.
Jesus can because He is God.
His body died....His spirit did not and through HIS OWN POWER He raised Himself
BECAUSE HE WAS NOT DEAD.



Good lesson on slaps.
You're correct and I agree.

Yes ma'am.
There is only One God

Notice that in your verse 1 Cor 8:5-6, both God Father and The Son have been given the same attributes.


5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.


Only God has the attributes of God.

Paul is not going to repeat Jesus is God in every writing.

This is the same Paul that wrote:

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Please note that Paul is speaking of the same Person.....
Jesus. Jesus is God,,,Jesus is Savior.

Just as the OT declared:
GOD HIMSELF WILL SAVE MAN.


Yes. We must call on the right name...
and it cannot be a man.

Jesus said.
John 8:24
24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless * you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."


As you've correctly stated we must call on the name of Yahweh...the LORD...


Romans 10:13
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


Yahweh is God Almighty, the creator.
Jesus is God Almighty, the creator.
Jesus is Yahweh.

They are both the same God.

Amen and amen! Think that's why Jesus said He IS the resurrection and the life.

 

[Lizbeth]

You pass the test.
Let's see what the other member thinks about this "WORD".

What we know for sure is that it was God.
And then it became flesh.

And we can test that John 1 passage itself to make sure it has been translated properly...........because it agrees perfectly with other scriptures that attest to the same thing it is saying.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen and amen! Think that's why Jesus said He IS the resurrection and the life.

Yes HE is dear sister . This glorious savoir of the world
as did His own made sure to make known the dire necessity to have to Beleive on HIM to be sav ed .
And HE and they all warned of the dire damnation to come upon all who would reject Him .
We are given a massive warning also by paul , as of one born out of due time ,
Who warned the church a massive strong delusion would come upon all
WHO REJECTED Him , the love of the truth whereby the might be saved .
And for that cause GOD sends strong delusion upon them to believe a lie and to be damned .
You already know why i am going about constantly reminding us about this .
Cause we sure do have us a lie that has come to MERGE the religoins and denominations
to be as one under what they all BELEIVE IS G OD and his plan for world peace .
Jesus never came to bring peace on earth .
But another sure does and by peace sure does d estroy many . THAT is what they all are getting
set up for .............and that one IS NOT ONE that any should have followed
and beleived was love and of GOD and GOD . we got a serious problem sister .

 

[amigo de christo]

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU MAY THEY ALSO BE IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one AS AS we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to COMPLETE UNITY. John17:20-23



According to Jesus, believers can be in Father and Son as they are in each other. How can believers be in Father and Son? Only through the Holy Spirit. 'JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU MAY THEY ALSO BE IN US

How can believers be as one?

Only through the Holy Spirit, there is no other way, of one heart and one mind in the Spirit, in complete unity.

Then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. Phil2:2

And Jesus prayed: That they(believers) may be one AS AS we are one

Its all about the Holy Spirit

and WHO does THIS ONE HOLY SPIRIT TESTIFY OF
JESUS THE CHRIST . And whose words would he bring to remembrance
THE VERY WORDS OF JESUS .
Let us keep that in mind when any , whether man , woman , child , donkey or angel , even thought
comes along
and tries to imply that there are good people in all religoins who are serving the same GOD the t rue christains do .
IMPOSSIBLE .
JESUS told those who beleived not on HIM ,
HAD you beleived moses you would have BELEIVED ME . so yes the muslims might claim to
BUT L IES .
JESUs said to those who believed not , YOU DO NOT HAVE THE LOVE OF GOD IN YOU .
So then how do these other religions have the love of GOD in them , WHEN THEY DENY CHRIST JESUS
and at most follow another jesus .
JESUS said IF YE LOVED ME you would KEEP my sayings .
And now a word of reminder by which to again stir us up ,
BUT WE HAVE ONE FATHER , GOD . so take note they DID CLIAM to BELEIVE ON GOD
and yet DID NOT BELEIVE ON JESUS .
And what did and who did JESUS say was their fa ther . THE DEVIL . so i highly suggest
yet ag ain , that we get anyone out of ecumeincal intefaith and fast .
and lastly one more reminder
IF even cornelious who did many good works , many prayers and alms
HAD to hear and b eleive the gospel TO be saved , WELL THEN how can anyone else save themselves .
WITH MAN IT IS IMPOSSIBLE , BUT NOT with GOD . And GOD has chosen HOW to save the world .
BY the preaching of the gospel to save those who ......................BELEIVE .
And one more thing
I challenge anyone to show me any of these so called g ood people who walk this earth .
CAUSE the last time i checked T HERE IS NONE WHO IS GOOD BUT GOD . all fall short .

 

[GodsGrace]

And we can test that John 1 passage itself to make sure it has been translated properly...........because it agrees perfectly with other scriptures that attest to the same thing it is saying.

Exactly.
One verse does not make doctrine.
And all of the bible has to agree.

 

[amigo de christo]

Exactly.
One verse does not make doctrine.
And all of the bible has to agree.

yes . while its true that one verse is true
WHEN men misunderstand it
and thus recreate what THEY THINK it means
man that s pells d istruction .
IF what one beleives a verse means , contradicts other places
THEN its high time to not beleive that is what it meant at all .
The more we read that bible , i tell us all the more it would have come together by the SPIRIT of GOD
who giveth knowledge and understanding .
When scripture contradicts scripture
or apostel seems to contradict apostel .
THEN IT BE us in error and need of learning and learning to rightly divide .
For even satan can quoate a scrip
YES even HE can say GOD IS LOVE , but watch HOW he uses it , aka twists it
to imply SOMETHING CONTRARY TO GOD . cause that is what HE DO and what many men have done themselves .
AND IT IS naught but rebellion towards GOD . HE is a liar and surely knows how to allure
and to decieve man . JESUS is our hope and by our faith WE can resist the dark one .
FOR CHRIST is able to succor us through it all . WE must HEED HIM
and get into the bible for to learn and be reminded , to stir one another up
BY THE PURE way of remembrance . THE HOUR is quite late . THIS world and all that is in it
will surely be dissolved
BUT NEW HEAVENS and the new earth are what we look forward too .
The hour is late and the delusion of all delusions has come to merge the decieved to be as one man
one heart , all beleiving they sit under GOD AND HIS LOVE . only , peek a boo , IT AINT GOD OR HIS LOVE .
STAND FIRM on the righteous and true and pure holy doctgrine that was first delivered unto the saints .

 

[Aunty Jane]

Full of rationalizing (carnal mind = enmity) Who does the OT say is Saviour? God. This is not rocket science and God's word wasn't given by Him in such a way that it needs to be dissected and examined under a microscope in order to be received. It is the Holy Spirit who opens His word to our hearts and understanding. And He chooses to hide truth from the wise and learned and reveal it to little children........which we must become as to enter the kingdom.

I agree with what you have stated here, but deeper study is required if the devil was set up a counterfeit “church” and convince the majority that they don’t need to study the Scriptures for themselves. We know that the ancient Boereans were commended for checking everything they heard with their Scripture. Should we be less vigilant? Especially in view of the fact that Jesus and his apostles warned of this apostasy that would take over the Christian Faith in exactly the same way that the devil corrupted Judaism.

We also know that the hygiene laws given to Israel were not understood at the time because there were no “microscopes” in those days to show the people what was invisible to them. The bacteria and causes of communicable diseases like leprosy were not understood at all back then, so reliance on God’s instructions were vital if they were to maintain their health. Unclean meats were also shown to be contaminated with microorganisms that can cause disease....so bringing a microscope to the Bible also uncovers many things that are served up to people in Christendom without regard as to whether many of the things dishes up in Christendom are ‘clean’ or ‘unclean’ to God. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

It is those who blindly swallow was is served up to them who will become spiritually sick.....often terminally.

We owe it to God and to ourselves to dig for the hidden treasure......it’s not lying about on the surface, but requires effort to dig. No effort means no real results.....fool’s gold is lying about everywhere....can we tell the difference? “Few” can. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) God is the one who “draws” those with the right heart, to his truth. (John 6:44; 65) No one can come to the Son without an invitation from his Father.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I've asked but received no reply from you.

Check my replies to you....everything you have raised has been addressed....rehashing is just a waste of energy.

John 1:1 speaks of A WORD.

No, John 1:1 speaks of “THE Word”....there is only one who is “ho logos”....and this one was “with “ho theos” (Yahweh/Jehovah.)

Whatever the WORD is,
it became FLESH and dwelt among us.

Yes, “ho logos” did become flesh, but “ho logos” was not “ho theos”.....he was just “theos”, which is a word with many applications. It applies to God, to Jesus, to angels, to Satan, and even to human judges.....
So calling Jesus “theos” is not calling him God with a capital “G”.

No need for Greek.
WHAT became flesh??

You are funny...no need for Greek? Why? Because it betrays a truth that Christendom must keep quiet?
The Greek argues that Christendom’s biased translations are in error.

Read the Greek interlinears and see where that little word “ho” is omitted so many times to infer what the Bible does not teach. You will see a little dash where the word “the” (ho) is clearly in the text when speaking of God, but visible in every other instance.
A classic example is in John 10:31-36. A genuine disciple of Christ will not ignore that very important translation detail.

The Word (ho logos) “became flesh” but “ho logos” was not “ho theos”. He was “with ho theos”....so how two separate personages can be one and the same deity is pretty much debunked, but only if you want to ignore something that is not obvious to those who are too lazy to dig for the hidden treasure.

If you want that to be true, and to ignore what is a glaring omission in translation, nothing I say will make a scrap of difference...as you so ably demonstrate.....you just rehash the same stuff...over and over as if you’ve never been shown proof in the Bible that your assumptions are not correct.

I think I am done responding to anything more on this topic with you.
People can read the responses here and make up their own minds.....

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

We cannot say that God HAS wisdom... we must say that God IS wisdom.
Wisdom is God.
Are you willing to apply your very principle to THE WORD?

If Wisdom is God, then how do you reconcile this with the fact that Jesus increased in wisdom, showing that his wisdom was a matter of education and growth. Hence Jesus is not God.

One verse does not make doctrine.
And all of the bible has to agree.

One verse can be very important, so looking again at John 1:14 there is some parallel with Jesus and his growth in wisdom. John says that they beheld the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, and he then further describes this glory in the fact that Jesus was "full of grace and truth". John did not witness this glory as physical attributes, but these qualities were moral glory. These were moral characteristics, similar to wisdom, and were a matter of growth. The Word made flesh is not speaking of the continuity of a physical being, but the transfer through education of the divine attributes of grace and truth.

Kind regards
Trevor