Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

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TribulationSigns

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Dan_7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

H2166
זְמָן
zemân
zem-awn'
(Chaldee); from H2165; the same as H2165: - season, time.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

The Bible is its own dictionary, history book, and interpreter. The Word of God, the voice of the author, is the only one that can define the apostasy or falling away from the faith. A secular dictionary cannot define God's terms any more than it can define the Lamb of God, Lampstands, the Beast, the Great Harlot, the Red Serpent, the 10 kings, the Olive Tree, the Branch, the Sower, the Devil, or any other biblical term. Interpretations belong to God, and that includes apostasy. The attack upon faithfulness in the changing of God's laws is apostasy! It doesn't have to mean leaving a church, and it was foretold from long ago..

Daniel 7:25
  • "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
Changing God's laws is apostasy. Those who think of changing God's laws within the church in order to deceive those gullible souls who think they are doing God a service, will be judged. It simply defines leaving the sound doctrine of God's laws. That's why the word is translated "falling away" in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 with regards to leaving God's law where the lawlessness of man is revealed. That is the great misnomer in certain circles about exactly what apostasy is, or means. God has been warning us of this departure from His laws from the beginning.

This will occur during the little season, AFTER God finish sealing all of his Elect first.
 

Zao is life

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The Bible is its own dictionary, history book, and interpreter. The Word of God, the voice of the author, is the only one that can define the apostasy or falling away from the faith. A secular dictionary cannot define God's terms any more than it can define the Lamb of God, Lampstands, the Beast, the Great Harlot, the Red Serpent, the 10 kings, the Olive Tree, the Branch, the Sower, the Devil, or any other biblical term. Interpretations belong to God, and that includes apostasy. The attack upon faithfulness in the changing of God's laws is apostasy! It doesn't have to mean leaving a church, and it was foretold from long ago..

Daniel 7:25
  • "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
Changing God's laws is apostasy. Those who think of changing God's laws within the church in order to deceive those gullible souls who think they are doing God a service, will be judged. It simply defines leaving the sound doctrine of God's laws. That's why the word is translated "falling away" in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 with regards to leaving God's law where the lawlessness of man is revealed. That is the great misnomer in certain circles about exactly what apostasy is, or means. God has been warning us of this departure from His laws from the beginning.

This will occur during the little season, AFTER God finish sealing all of his Elect first.

I agree mostly. It's linked to apostasy. The biblical precursor and type is what Antiochus IV Epihanes did when he changed the biblical appointed times ("feasts of the LORD") given to Moses, and the laws. At the time most of the Jews apostatized - with the exception of a remnant, who followed the Maccabees.

Paul warned that the man of sin | son of perdition will do the same.

The problem with ascribing it ALL to the Popes is that that time of apostasy mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 immediately precedes the return of Christ. At best the Popes are an example of what is being spoken of as changing times and laws and at worst the man of sin / son of perdition is A MAN who will be a Pope

- but the SDA's link "the changing of times and laws" chiefly and especially to one thing - Sunday worship - and they may be completely wrong about why the sabbath was "changed", who "changed" it, and why "they" "changed" it.

There is a heap of conspiracy theory involved with SDA doctrine that is fantasy.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The problem with ascribing it ALL to the Popes is that that time of apostasy mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 immediately precedes the return of Christ. At best the Popes are an example of what is being spoken of as changing times and laws and at worst the man of sin / son of perdition is A MAN who will be a Pope.

First, for those who are asking: the Papacy does not qualify.
The period from AD 538 to AD 1798 was not the “short season.”

During that time, the elect were still obeying the Great Commission, and the gospel continued to go into the rest of the world. That alone shows this period cannot be the short season described in Scripture.

The apostasy of the church is not the Roman Catholic Church alone, but the mainstream Christian church as a whole, especially as it moves closer to the Second Coming.

What Scripture describes as apostasy is far worse than anything a pope has done—it is a widespread falling away from truth, compromise with the world, and abandonment of Christ’s authority while still claiming His name. It will be a great tribulation FOR the Saint that will be worse than before or shall be. Papacy? Hardly qualified!


\- but the SDA's link "the changing of times and laws" chiefly and especially to one thing - Sunday worship - and they may be completely wrong about why the sabbath was "changed", who "changed" it, and why "they" "changed" it.

There is a heap of conspiracy theory involved with SDA doctrine that is fantasy.

I am not concerned with SDA doctrine or with people’s theories that attempt to label the SDA Church as a candidate for “changing times and laws.” I disagree with that claim.

The SDA Church was not a faithful church to begin with, and therefore does not fit the biblical criteria being argued. It was organized in AD 1863, and that period does not qualify as the “short season.”

In short, the timeline alone rules it out, regardless of interpretive theories.
 
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Zao is life

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NEW Years Resolution for all on christianityboardforum.com

But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

I have an even better January 15th 2026 to January 15rh 2027 resolution

Let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. -- Romans 3:4.
 

ewq1938

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"satan's little season" is Rev 20:7-8

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 
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Zao is life

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"satan's little season" is Rev 20:7-8
I agree.

"After (the thousand years) he must be loosed a little [mikros] season [chronos]." (Rev 20:3b)

The length of the little season mentioned above and described in Rev 20:7-8 is not specified,

but the length of the events being described in Dan 7:25; Dan 12:7; Rev 11:2 and Rev 13:5, are all specified - and none of them are referred to as "a little season".
 
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David in NJ

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Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Thank you and @Zao is life

Satan's 'little season' is prophesied/announced Beforehand by God in 20:3

This very specific 'little season' Begins in 20:7-8

False doctrines DO NOT like specifics = it Trends Towards Exposure in the LIGHT
 
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David in NJ

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I agree.

"After (the thousand years) he must be loosed a little [mikros] season [chronos]." (Rev 20:3b)

The length of the little season mentioned above and described in Rev 20:7-8 is not specified,

but the length of the events being described in Dan 7:25; Dan 12:7; Rev 11:2 and Rev 13:5, are all specified - and none of them are referred to as "a little season".
Good Morning and Thank You
 
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amigo de christo

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Rev 20:5 "the rest of the dead" are NOT part of the First Resurrection


Absolutely NOT the same = No way, No how!!!

70AD Jerusalem was destined for destruction because they rejected the SON of GOD.

The "CAMP of the Saints" in Rev 20 are the Resurrected Saints = No Judgment upon them!!!

Think my Sister in CHRIST = Think TRUTH
Did FIRE come down from Heaven in 70AD and destroy the Roman Army??? = Absolutely NOT


They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan/the Devil, is NOT locked up AND he is NOT in the Lake of Fire AND neither are the Beast and False Prophet

These words that i am speaking to you Lizbeth, they are spirit and they are life for these are the words of GOD.

Falsehood is = "we are in satan's little season now/today"
Now this my friend was a good answer .
Do you see Jerusalem of old being surrounded in seventy AD
as the same as in rev twenty . BINGO on that answer my friend .
Because IN chapter twenty , THAT TRUE JERSUALEM NEVER GETS TOUCHED , GOD DESTORYES that army .
YET GOD used the roman army TO DESTROY Jersusalem and her temple of stones .
SO in no way CAN the two be the same JERSUALEM .
 

David in NJ

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Now this my friend was a good answer .
Do you see Jerusalem of old being surrounded in seventy AD
as the same as in rev twenty . BINGO on that answer my friend .
Because IN chapter twenty , THAT TRUE JERSUALEM NEVER GETS TOUCHED , GOD DESTORYES that army .
YET GOD used the roman army TO DESTROY Jersusalem and her temple of stones .
SO in no way CAN the two be the same JERSUALEM .
Let us be like the "Let Us" of Genesis 1:26

Lest we become chopped lettuce in our understanding of "Thy Word is Truth"
 

Davidpt

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Plus there is the fact that:

(a) The words "but the remainder [G3062 loipoy] of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." (Revelation 20:5a)

- are not found in the Bible’s oldest Greek manuscript of the Revelation, the Codex Sinaiticus. Nor are they found in the oldest Aramaic manuscript, the Khabouris Codex.

(b) The words are listed as spurious in Tischendorf "List of spurious texts".

(c) The words appear to contradict the scriptures that talk about a day when the dead are raised:

"God has set A DAY on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead."
(Acts 17:31).

(d) Omitting the sentence does not affect the meaning of what is being said regarding the souls John saw, who had been beheaded:

"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6, with the sentence omitted).

Many Bible translators believe the words regarding "the rest of the dead" are an interpolation - words which were first written as notes by scribes on the sides or under the text of some of the Byzantine manuscripts, and were copied into the text by later scribes who were not sure whether or not the words "should be" in the text (following the principle: "An accidental addition (if that's the case) is better than a deliberate omission, bearing Revelation 22:18-19 in mind").

Whatever the case may be, that first part of the sentence in Revelation 20:5a cannot be used as an argument for anything regarding Premillennialism or regarding the judgment of the dead - i.e regarding "the rest of the dead" being judged later, at the time of Revelation 20:11-15, when Revelation 11:18 and all Jesus's statements and later statements by the apostles regarding the Day of Judgment imply otherwise.

- also because of point # 2 at the top of this post.

These things are facts, not a matter of interpretation.

I'm already familiar with all of that. I'm not sure what to make of it, in regards to verse 5. In the meantime, the following are some interesting opinions.

-----------------

The following of course are just opinions of posters. Some interesting opinions, nonetheless. Especially in regards to the poster indicating it is harmful to Amillennialism. I pasted the entire exchange since some posters don't care to go to links someone has submitted.


--------------------


Augustin delighted in viewing the church's bishops sitting on thrones, therefore announcing the Millennium as having begun already. After history this view seems hard to maintain. The thousand years now appear - even if future - as squeezed in where no demand is. Many assign it to the Israel as a kind of parallel kingdom to the one supposed to remain where it is said to come from.

This half verse is badly supported by manuscript evidence. Against his own apparatus (indicating omission from Sinaiticus to Syriac, from koine's majority to several early commentaries) the Nestle-Aland critical edition keeps it in its main text. Why?



4 Answers
Sorted by:
6

In order to answer such a question, we must first put away our theological preferences, whether pre-, post-, or amillennial. Only then can we objectively consider the textual evidence:

According to the NA-28 apparatus, the first half of the verse is missing in codex Sinaiticus, the byzantine manuscripts, and to a few much less significant manuscripts. Therefore the first half of the verse is present in all early papyri except one. Though codex Sinaiticus weighs heavily when it agrees with codex Vaticanus, that is not the case here. Besides, though Sinaiticus is considered an reliable text in the gospels and Acts, it is of notoriously poor quality in Revelation: several papyri and even some miniscules are considered better witnesses to Revelation. Thus, unless one considers the majority text a better witness than the early manuscripts (since even the Textus Receptus includes v5a), one is forced to conclude that the passage is most likely original. No internal evidence disagrees, as far as I know

But I don't think Rev 20:5a does any serious damage to any eschatology: what v5a says is already clear from the context, so I don't think anyone of any theology would benefit from removing it.



"But I don't think Rev 20:5a does any serious damage to any eschatology: what v5a says is already clear from the context, so I don't think anyone of any theology would benefit from removing it."

It is harmful to Amillennialism because that doctrine teaches all the dead are raised at the same time rather than some before the thousand years and the rest after.



The phrase in question is:

οἱ λοιποὶ τῶν νεκρῶν οὐκ ἔζησαν ἄχρι τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

Metzger's Textual Commentary on the New Testament does not have an entry on this verse, which implies that the committee come to easy consensus on assigning the reading to the "A" category - "certain" (The other categories are B - "almost certain"; C - "the Committee had difficulty in deciding which variant to place in the text"; D - "the Committee had great difficulty in arriving at a decision").

New Testament Manuscript Witnesses

Revelation suffers from a paucity of available manuscripts. Altogether only 15 "witnesses of the first order" are available for the book, 14 "witnesses of the second order", and no "frequently cited witnesses" or "occasionally cited witnesses". By comparison, there are close to 100 witnesses of the first and second order for the Gospel of Matthew.

Further not all witnesses contain Revelation 20:5. Of the witnesses of first order, only four manuscripts contain the verse:

Codex Sinaiticus - c. 330-360; origin St. Catherine's Monastery, Sinai
Codex Alexandrinus - c. 400-440; origin uncertain, probably Egypt
Codex Ephraimi - 6th c.; probably Egyptian origin, brought to Florence after the fall of Constantinople in 1453
Codex Athous Pantokratoros - aka "Uncial 051" - 10th c.; currently at Mt. Athos Greece, where it likely was first transcribed

The committee also considers the majority reading in all available manuscripts (witnesses of first and second order, in the case of Revelation) as itself comprising a witness of first order.

Andrew of Caesarea

The manuscript corpus for Revelation is also unique in that a significant witness for the book is the large collection of manuscripts - over 80 - of the commentary of Andrew of Caesarea, an eastern hierarch who lived in the 7th and 8th century.*. The Nestle-Aland committee assigned the majority reading of the encapsulated Revelation text in Andrew's commentaries to the group of witnesses of first order.

Weight for Inclusion

Of the six witnesses of first order that contain Revelation 20:5, three are with the phrase and three without. With the phrase are:

Codex Alexandrinus (early 5th c.)
Codex Athous Pantokratoros (10th c.)
The majority of manuscripts containing the commentary of Andrew of Caesarea

Without the phrase are:

Codex Sinaiticus (early to mid 4th c.)
Codex Ephraimi (6th c.)
Majority of witnesses of second order

In addition, the phrase appears in the majority of early Latin manuscripts, but not in Syriac or Coptic.

* See E. Constantinou, Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse in the Ancient Church of the East



The Peshitta has what is verse 5 in most translations in verse 4 . Even if verse 5 was completely removed the evidence for a post millennial resurrection can be deduced by the events in the other verses of Revelation 20. In the gospels the return of Jesus only mentions the saints or elect, the church.


-----------------------
On another note, the following site has some interesting arguments. But I'm not going to paste in here since that page is somewhat lengthy.
 
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Lizbeth

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Rev 20:5 "the rest of the dead" are NOT part of the First Resurrection


Absolutely NOT the same = No way, No how!!!

70AD Jerusalem was destined for destruction because they rejected the SON of GOD.

The "CAMP of the Saints" in Rev 20 are the Resurrected Saints = No Judgment upon them!!!

Think my Sister in CHRIST = Think TRUTH
Did FIRE come down from Heaven in 70AD and destroy the Roman Army??? = Absolutely NOT


They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan/the Devil, is NOT locked up AND he is NOT in the Lake of Fire AND neither are the Beast and False Prophet

These words that i am speaking to you Lizbeth, they are spirit and they are life for these are the words of GOD.

Falsehood is = "we are in satan's little season now/today"
Greetings brother. I'm just trying some things on for size, to see if they fit. I don't believe a lot of what we have been hearing all our Christian lives about Revelation and eschatology is very correct. If we let God's word interpret itself, what does the bible say about the camp.......what comes to mind for me is "sin in the camp", "Christ crucified outside the camp" and "let us go to Him outside the camp". So I believe that might give us some insight into what Rev is talking about there. I don't think we have to assume that "the camp of the saints" and "beloved city" referred to in Rev is necessarily talking about a holy and undefiled Bride, Jerusalem that is above. The camp (both earthly Jerusalem as well as the church) is subject to sin and apostasy, aka Mystery Babylon.....and gets attacked when the Beast turns on her and is punished with fire. There was arguably a beast and false prophet in the first century, but that doesn't mean there wont' be another as pertains to the church at the end of this age......there are two beasts. And there is a kind of woof and waffle of prophecies that have more than one fulfillment, as I've mentioned. Anyway I have to wait on the Lord for more understanding and for sight to see, I don't want to argue with you or anyone about it. God bless.
 

amigo de christo

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Let us be like the "Let Us" of Genesis 1:26

Lest we become chopped lettuce in our understanding of "Thy Word is Truth"
Take heed unto thyself and u nto the doctrine
for in doing this thou shalt save thyself and those that hear thee .
We are in the peaking hour of upmost rebellion that leads to only Greater rebellion against GOD , HIS CHRIST .
They getting ready for blood my friend .
And when i say blood , I Dont mean the FAITH IN CHRIST and in HIS BLOOD
i mean OUR BLOOD . this hatred is growing my friend and it will lead them
to the all out eradication of anything that dont conform to their god and its false inclusive divese ecumenical love .
Be a cold day in hell before i capitlize that god . IT the devil . no doubt in my mind that its the devil
BUT for anyone who might doubt
I have a good test . BRING A BIBLE INTO said churches AND YOU start reading HIS OWN words
AND see HOW LONG you last before they run you out with hateful slurs as they condmen GODS OWN WORDS as hate speech .
 

Marvelloustime

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Take heed unto thyself and u nto the doctrine
for in doing this thou shalt save thyself and those that hear thee .
We are in the peaking hour of upmost rebellion that leads to only Greater rebellion against GOD , HIS CHRIST .
They getting ready for blood my friend .
And when i say blood , I Dont mean the FAITH IN CHRIST and in HIS BLOOD
i mean OUR BLOOD . this hatred is growing my friend and it will lead them
to the all out eradication of anything that dont conform to their god and its false inclusive divese ecumenical love .
Be a cold day in hell before i capitlize that god . IT the devil . no doubt in my mind that its the devil
BUT for anyone who might doubt
I have a good test . BRING A BIBLE INTO said churches AND YOU start reading HIS OWN words
AND see HOW LONG you last before they run you out with hateful slurs as they condmen GODS OWN WORDS as hate speech .
@amigo de christo
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Zao is life

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I'm already familiar with all of that. I'm not sure what to make of it, in regards to verse 5. In the meantime, the following are some interesting opinions.

The following of course are just opinions of posters. Some interesting opinions, nonetheless. Especially in regards to the poster indicating it is harmful to Amillennialism. I pasted the entire exchange since some posters don't care to go to links someone has submitted.

Thanks David.

I do not agree with Amillennialism, as you know

- but what I always find annoying (truly annoying) about commentaries is that the doctrinal biases of the commentators are almost always exposed when they say things like this below, even while they conveniently ignore the scriptures that negate what they have just said - showing what they have just asserted, to be a false claim:

1. Even if verse 5 was completely removed the evidence for a post millennial resurrection can be deduced by the events in the other verses of Revelation 20.

2. In the gospels the return of Jesus only mentions the saints or elect, the church.

Both statements are false. Revelation 20:11-15 can just as well be included at the start of Revelation 21 - which would make Revelation 20:1-10 parenthetic - the chapter divisions in the Revelation were only added in AD 1227 - and the verse numbers in AD 1555.

What the commentator said in point #2 above is also false:

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Revelation 11:17-18 (seventh trumpet)

"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged"

Daniel, Jesus and Paul ALL spoke of the Day of Christ in such a way as to imply that ALL the dead will be raised and judged on the same day - at the time of the return of Christ:

JESUS:

Matthew 25:31-33, 41 & 46

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios zoe]."


20 Now the beast was seized, and along with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf - signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulfur.
21 The others were killed by the sword that extended from the mouth of the one who rode the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves with their flesh. -- Revelation 19

Matthew 25:31
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Revelation 20

11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened - the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.


"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor 15:54

John 5:26-29
"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming

- in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Jesus did not say "SOME" who are in the graves - He said ALL).

THE APOSTLE PAUL:

Acts 24:15

"And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

Daniel 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
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The bulk of the evidence - both in the gospels and in the Revelation - and in passages such as Isaiah 65:17 and 2 Peter 3:13 - negates everything the commentators concluded while they conveniently ignored the biblical evidence that show their assertions up to be false:

1. Even if verse 5 was completely removed the evidence for a post millennial resurrection can be deduced by the events in the other verses of Revelation 20.

2. In the gospels the return of Jesus only mentions the saints or elect, the church.

Both the above assertions are manifestly false and what remains is the fact that regarding the words "and the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished", manuscript discrepancy exists as to whether or not it was originally penned by the person who penned the Revelation

- in some of the manuscripts that have been found, the words were only included by scribes as a note made by themselves, in earlier manuscripts, the words are simply not there. In later manuscripts, the words appear in the text.

Therefore IMO the words are not enough evidence by themselves to have two days of judgment when the dead are raised and judged - separated by a thousand years, following the return of Christ.

- and I say that even though I believe the thousand years commences immediately after the return of Christ and the judgment of the dead:

Revelation 11:17-18 (seventh trumpet)

"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged"
 
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Lizbeth

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Thanks David.

I do not agree with Amillennialism, as you know

- but what I always find annoying (truly annoying) about commentaries is that the doctrinal biases of the commentators are almost always exposed when they say things like this below, even while they conveniently ignore the scriptures that negate what they have just said - showing what they have just asserted, to be a false claim:



Both statements are false. Revelation 20:11-15 can just as well be included at the start of Revelation 21 - which would make Revelation 20:1-10 parenthetic - the chapter divisions in the Revelation were only added in AD 1227 - and the verse numbers in AD 1555.

What the commentator said in point #2 above is also false:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​
Revelation 11:17-18 (seventh trumpet)

"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged"

Daniel, Jesus and Paul ALL spoke of the Day of Christ in such a way as to imply that ALL the dead will be raised and judged on the same day - at the time of the return of Christ:

JESUS:

Matthew 25:31-33, 41 & 46

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios zoe]."


20 Now the beast was seized, and along with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf - signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulfur.
21 The others were killed by the sword that extended from the mouth of the one who rode the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves with their flesh. -- Revelation 19

Matthew 25:31
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Revelation 20

11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened - the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.


"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor 15:54

John 5:26-29
"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming

- in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Jesus did not say "SOME" who are in the graves - He said ALL).

THE APOSTLE PAUL:

Acts 24:15

"And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

Daniel 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

The bulk of the evidence - both in the gospels and in the Revelation - and in passages such as Isaiah 65:17 and 2 Peter 3:13 - negates everything the commentators concluded while they conveniently ignored the biblical evidence that show their assertions up to be false:



Both the above assertions are manifestly false and what remains is the fact that regarding the words "and the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished", manuscript discrepancy exists as to whether or not it was originally penned by the person who penned the Revelation

- in some of the manuscripts that have been found, the words were only included by scribes as a note made by themselves, in earlier manuscripts, the words are simply not there. In later manuscripts, the words appear in the text.

Therefore IMO the words are not enough evidence by themselves to have two days of judgment when the dead are raised and judged - separated by a thousand years, following the return of Christ.

- and I say that even though I believe the thousand years commences immediately after the return of Christ and the judgment of the dead:

Revelation 11:17-18 (seventh trumpet)

"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged"
To me "A-millenialism" seems like a misnomer......it's not that there is no millennial rule of Christ, it's that some of us believe we are in His millennial rule now, in this age.

And speaking for myself, I don't ignore scriptures, but just that I often can't give an answer when I don't have a grasp of everything yet. Scripture is not like reading a book written by a human author.....things need to be grasped and understood in spirit, with ears that hear and eyes that see....in spirit. Which can only come from the Lord, not from our own self and our natural minds of flesh.
 

David in NJ

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Thanks David.

I do not agree with Amillennialism, as you know

- but what I always find annoying (truly annoying) about commentaries is that the doctrinal biases of the commentators are almost always exposed when they say things like this below, even while they conveniently ignore the scriptures that negate what they have just said - showing what they have just asserted, to be a false claim:



Both statements are false. Revelation 20:11-15 can just as well be included at the start of Revelation 21 - which would make Revelation 20:1-10 parenthetic - the chapter divisions in the Revelation were only added in AD 1227 - and the verse numbers in AD 1555.

What the commentator said in point #2 above is also false:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​
Revelation 11:17-18 (seventh trumpet)

"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged"

Daniel, Jesus and Paul ALL spoke of the Day of Christ in such a way as to imply that ALL the dead will be raised and judged on the same day - at the time of the return of Christ:

JESUS:

Matthew 25:31-33, 41 & 46

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios zoe]."


20 Now the beast was seized, and along with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf - signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulfur.
21 The others were killed by the sword that extended from the mouth of the one who rode the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves with their flesh. -- Revelation 19

Matthew 25:31
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Revelation 20

11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened - the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.


"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor 15:54

John 5:26-29
"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming

- in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Jesus did not say "SOME" who are in the graves - He said ALL).

THE APOSTLE PAUL:

Acts 24:15

"And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

Daniel 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

The bulk of the evidence - both in the gospels and in the Revelation - and in passages such as Isaiah 65:17 and 2 Peter 3:13 - negates everything the commentators concluded while they conveniently ignored the biblical evidence that show their assertions up to be false:



Both the above assertions are manifestly false and what remains is the fact that regarding the words "and the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished", manuscript discrepancy exists as to whether or not it was originally penned by the person who penned the Revelation

- in some of the manuscripts that have been found, the words were only included by scribes as a note made by themselves, in earlier manuscripts, the words are simply not there. In later manuscripts, the words appear in the text.

Therefore IMO the words are not enough evidence by themselves to have two days of judgment when the dead are raised and judged - separated by a thousand years, following the return of Christ.

- and I say that even though I believe the thousand years commences immediately after the return of Christ and the judgment of the dead:

Revelation 11:17-18 (seventh trumpet)

"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged"
The Two are Separate but they Speak as 'one'.
 

Zao is life

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To me "A-millenialism" seems like a misnomer......it's not that there is no millennial rule of Christ, it's that some of us believe we are in His millennial rule now, in this age.

And speaking for myself, I don't ignore scriptures, but just that I often can't give an answer when I don't have a grasp of everything yet. Scripture is not like reading a book written by a human author.....things need to be grasped and understood in spirit, with ears that hear and eyes that see....in spirit. Which can only come from the Lord, not from our own self and our natural minds of flesh.

Sister, you speak to yourself and preach to yourself all at the same time, saying things many like myself and many others have discovered long before you like:

"Scripture is not like reading a book written by a human author.....things need to be grasped and understood in spirit, with ears that hear and eyes that see....in spirit. Which can only come from the Lord, not from our own self and our natural minds of flesh."

The Holy Spirit - through the scriptures - has enabled me and many others to see the flaws in the arguments in the doctrine that everyone knows is commonly called "Amilennialism:.

The same goes for my reliance on the Holy Spirit that has enabled me to see the flaws in some of the arguments of Premillenniists.

You say things similar to what I quoted above almost every time you answer a post of mine - which is you NOT ACTUALLY offering any good advice - but you preaching

- to someone who could have taught you the things you preach about long before you learned them.

- which is why you do not fully grasp or understand what the conversation between myself and @Davidpt and @David in NJ is about.

David does. Leave it up to him to respond to what I say - notice his response is devoid of any preaching about things you yourself only learned long after many of us.

Your preaching is devoid of the understanding that God may eventually give you - that despite reliance on the Holy Spirit to help us to understand what the scriptures are saying - to some degree all of us yet fail to understand certain things - which is why Amillennialism exists - which you yourself adheres to.

We can talk about what the scriptures say without preaching to one another about "why those who do not agree with what I say do not agree with what I say" - because such preaching probably applies to the one offering it more so than the people you are offering it to.
 
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Zao is life

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The Two are Separate but they Speak as 'one'.

I disagree. There is no indication in what Jesus or the apostles or the prophets before them said - in anything that is written - that the two are separate.

If they were indeed separate then I would agree that they speak as "one"

- but there is no indication that they are separate. All that is written speaks as "one"

- and that Word speaks thus:

The resurrection and judgment of ALL the dead will take place immediately following the return of Christ.

When Christ returns, those who died in Christ will rise first, then the rest of those who are in Christ and who are still alive will be changed, and caught up with them - joining them to meet the Lord in the air,

returning with His armies when He destroys the beast, and being judges under His authority of the twelve tribes of Israel.

IMO it's failure to believe that God would do such a thing - by allowing such a thing - as immortals being tested in paradise - that has Premillennialists ignoring the fact that the first three chapters of the Bible ended with the same test of immortals that the thousand years ends with, and needing to develop a theory like the one you just mentioned above, as a result.

The difference lies only between the consequences of all mankind in Adam failing the test, and the consequences for those who fail the final test.

First three chapters:


(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (which began with the words "You will NOT surely die" - Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

-- in Adam all mankind failed the test --

(b) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(c) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

IN-BETWEEN THE FIRST THREE CHAPTERS
AND THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS:

--- "I am the Resurrection [anastasis]
and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25 - Jesus) ---

Last three chapters:

(a) Satan's deception of the nations descended from Adam & Eve.

-- one part of mankind descended from Adam and Eve fails the test --

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
(Revelation 20:7-9).

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages." (Revelation 20:7-10).

Matthew 10:28
"Fear not them which kill the body [soma], but are not able to kill the soul [psuche]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [psuche] and body [soma] in gehennah [G1067 geenna]."

The New Testament uses the word gehennah every time Jesus talks about the everlasting destruction of body and soul. In Mark 9:43 & 45 Jesus calls it "the fire that shall never be quenched". Gehennah and the lake of fire burning with brimstone both represent an everlasting destruction of body and soul.

Revelation 19:20 (previous to the first of the last three chapters) tells us that the beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive [zao] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The concept of being damned while alive [zao] is not extra-biblical or alien to scripture.

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).

A thousand years that commences following the return of Christ is in line with the fact that the last three chapters of the Bible are a reflection of the first three chapters of the Bible:

First three chapters: Beginning of time: God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31).
Last three chapters: Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

First three chapters: Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31).
Last three chapters: Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27).

First three chapters: Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17).
Last three chapters: Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

First three chapters: Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28).
Last three chapters: The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 20:4 - also see Revelation 3:21).

Adam lived 930 years, and then he died. Christ came into the world, died for the sins of mankind (all my / our sins included, of course), and rose again from the dead.

At the close of the thousand years, we read about something that ends with this consequence:

"..and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

No more grace.
 
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