How can there be life after death?

[Adventageous]

“cut him off from the land of the living”....after he had delivered a judgment message against them? (Jer 11:19)

That text refers to physical life, not spiritual life. Thus, this world is indeed the "land of the dead" (see Eph. 2:1; Pro. 21:26 KJB), who need spiritual Life from Jesus Christ. This world is a land of 'zombies' (all flesh, no spiritual life, only desiring 'flesh', and are as walking corpses until they accept the salvation in Jesus Christ) or 'vampires' (again, like 'zombies', crave spiritual life (which life is in the blood of Christ Jesus), but have none of their own, seeking and going from body (flesh) to body (flesh) hoping that flesh and dead blood will continue their spiritually lifeless existence), and there are also 'werewolves' (men who are as 'dogs' and as a 'beast' as Nebuchandezzar II had been for 7 years; see Psa. 73:22; Dan. 4. KJB, only desiring others to be as them, and run in their 'packs' of madness)

 

[Riven]

What I don't understand is why we don't see anything supernatural when a person dies if the traditional concept of the soul is actually true.

What we see is the cessation of life as soon as brain activity stops, or shortly after. The body becomes no different than a burned out light bulb.

 

[2bme]

Would you like to explain that a little more?

In what sense is this “the land of the dead” when Jeremiah spoke of his enemies scheming to “cut him off from the land of the living”....after he had delivered a judgment message against them? (Jer 11:19)

God gave us life on this carefully prepared planet...he did not intend for that life to end, but to be enjoyed forever in paradise conditions. Earth was not created to be a training ground for heaven....it was designed to be our permanent home. So where do the dead go? What does the Bible say about the physically dead?

But, is the ‘death’ you refer to.... ‘spiritual death’? Because there are a lot of spiritually “dead” people walking around in this world. What is God going to do with them?

This whole universe is specifically designed to incorporate entropy. So everything that is existing now will eventually break down and cease its function. Now this is not the same as life immortal which would never break down and cease functioning. So instead of looking at the picture as beginning with life - death - life. I could look at it as death - life. Now many people may argue that the Genesis account of the creation of the world and the universe was perfect in the beginning, but the word used in English translations that God said it was Good doesn't actually mean perfect in it's original usage. It is actually closer to saying it was acceptable to God (Workable or useful for all intended purposes) We all could have the idea of life and death backwards.

טוֹב (tov)
The first use of this word is in Genesis chapter one where Elohiym calls his handiwork "good" (as it is usually translated). It should always be remembered that the Hebrews often relate descriptions to functionality. When Elohiym looked at his handiwork, he did not see that it was "good," he saw that it was functional-"like a well oiled and tuned machine."

Hebrew Word Definition: Good | AHRC

Defining Hebrew words within their original cultural context.

www.ancient-hebrew.org

 

[Adventageous]

What I don't understand is why we don't see anything supernatural when a person dies if the traditional concept of the soul is actually true.

The 'tradional concept' is simply borrowed from pagan Greek, and earlier, philosophies. As Roman Catholicism says:

Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “S”, “Soul”:​

​

“... is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Soul​

​

Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “I”; “Immortality”:​

​

“... For positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life, we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immortality​

This ideology is simply in error, and is borrowed from the fallen being, Lucifer, from the beginning:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:​

God said instead:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

​

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

What we see is the cessation of life as soon as brain activity stops, or shortly after. The body becomes no different than a burned out light bulb.

Correct. This was the point of the book I provided earlier, with the definitions of "soul", &c. therein.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What I don't understand is why we don't see anything supernatural when a person dies if the traditional concept of the soul is actually true.

What we see is the cessation of life as soon as brain activity stops, or shortly after. The body becomes no different than a burned out light bulb.

You only have to be present when someone breathes their last breath, to know that life is extinguished.

Psalm 146:4 says about the dead....

“His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.” (NASB)

“When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.” (NLT)

“His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.” (NKJV)

“Their life’s breath departs, they return to the ground. On that day their plans die.” (NET)

You can see by how this verse is translated and rendered in these translations to see who wants to support the existence of an immortal soul and who is satisfied to render it the way it was written to a Hebrew audience, who held no belief in an immortal soul. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

It is the breath (rûaḥ ) that departs....not the soul. A soul is a living, breathing creature....it never means a disembodied spirit.

Gen 6:17 says about the flood of Noah’s day....
“Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath H7307 of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.”

Then in Gen 8;1 it uses the same word...
“But God remembered Noah and all the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the ark; and God caused a wind H7307 to pass over the earth, and the water subsided.”

So it is translated as “breath” or “wind”....that is not a soul.

It is clear that no plans can be carried out after death....because they have no conscious existence after death and hence no place to go but “Sheol/hades” which is the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
Once breathing stops, the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) Man and animals have the same death. (Eccl 3:19-20)

 

[Aunty Jane]

This whole universe is specifically designed to incorporate entropy. So everything that is existing now will eventually break down and cease its function.

Entropy is an interesting factor in nature.....everything we have from a God of order, needs maintenance in order to keep functioning at an orderly level. Every gardener know what happens if we ignore the weeds and allow nature to do what it does...
Since God placed the humans in a beautiful garden that he himself planted, and not in an unkempt wilderness, perhaps that was the purpose of entropy...to provide on going and consistent work to keep humans occupied with a very satisfying occupation....keeping their surroundings in beautiful condition, whilst at the same time, renewing everything in order to keep it fresh and beautiful....just a suggestion...

Now this is not the same as life immortal which would never break down and cease functioning. So instead of looking at the picture as beginning with life - death - life. I could look at it as death - life.

You mean we have it backwards? We were born “dead” but “came to life” later?
That is an interesting concept but it’s not biblical.

Now many people may argue that the Genesis account of the creation of the world and the universe was perfect in the beginning, but the word used in English translations that God said it was Good doesn't actually mean perfect in it's original usage. It is actually closer to saying it was acceptable to God (Workable or useful for all intended purposes)

Since the creative “days” were in planned increments, and at the end of each period, having completed creation for that period, there was a declaration from God that everything so far was according to plan.... that would make more sense to me.
It isn’t until creation was completed that God declared the whole process to be “very good”.....Can we imagine what “very good” means to the Creator?

We all could have the idea of life and death backwards.

Since Adam and his wife were the last of God’s creations, his final declaration must have included them.
Everything he had brought into existence was exactly as he had planned. The humans were not born dead, but very much alive and with a wonderful life ahead of them.....all they had to do was obey one simple command that caused them no hardship whatsoever.
It was a rebel angel who caused a derailment to God’s purpose for mankind on this lovingly prepared earth.
God would deal with it appropriately in his own time and way.

I don’t believe that the creative days were literal 24 hour periods, but untold eons of time, with great care and attention to detail in so many things. We have to remember that God is a Creator...not a magician.

טוֹב (tov)
The first use of this word is in Genesis chapter one where Elohiym calls his handiwork "good" (as it is usually translated). It should always be remembered that the Hebrews often relate descriptions to functionality. When Elohiym looked at his handiwork, he did not see that it was "good," he saw that it was functional-"like a well oiled and tuned machine."

Yes, all that he made served his purpose perfectly.....there was no defect in any of it.
So what caused the derailment that sent everything into chaos? And how did God deal with the defection of his children both in heaven and on earth?
What will be the outcome? (Isa 55:11)

 

[Adventageous]

This whole universe is specifically designed to incorporate entropy.

I disagree. I see no evidence of that 'universally' speaking. I only see such localized to earth, because of sin, and its consequences / results, and some things resultant from that in the local Sol-system. I see the entire 'universe' as specifically created as symbiotic, receiving and taking, with transfers between one thing and another, with nothing going to waste (point 7).

[1.] God is everlasting life - Act_3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.​

[2.] death is an enemy - 1Co_15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.​

[3.] Jesus was sent to deliver from death - 2Co_1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death ...​

[4.] death (not just mankind, Gen. 4:8, 5:5, but also of animal; Gen. 3:21, for before sin of mankind there was no death of man or animal, Gen. 1:29-31, 2:1-3) is a result of sin (transgression of God's law; Rom. 7:7,14; Jam. 2:8-13; 1 Jhn. 3:4), as per Gen. 2:17; Rom. 6:23​

[5.] death shall not be in the recreated world (News Heavens & Earth) - Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

[6.] God is the God of order & not of confusion (evolutionism has no order, only ever-shifting chaos, confusion) - 1Co_14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. (also Ecc. 3:1)​

[7.] God is not the God of waste (evolutionism is wasteful) - Joh_6:12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.​

[8.] God is not a liar, & doesn't distort how Creation took place in Gen., &c. - (Deu. 32:4; Psa. 25:10, 119:142,151; Jhn. 14:6, 17:17; Tit. 1:2; Heb. 6:18; 1 Jhn. 5:6 KJB)​

[9.] God foretold the entire history in Gen. 1:1-2:4, by natural to spiritual typological-antitypology prophecy - (Isa. 46:9-10 KJB)​

[10.] God cares about the life of the creation, doesn't deny God's own character - (Job 38:41; Psa. 104:27-28; Pro. 12:10; Mat. 6:26; Luk. 12:24 KJB)​

[11.] God is omniscient, had a goal, & accomplished it - Psa. 147:5; Isa. 55:11; Jer. 29:11\​

[12.] God is love - 1 Jhn. 4:8,16 KJB​

So everything that is existing now will eventually break down and cease its function.

I disagree entirely. Everything is eternally sustained by God. Only the present heaven (sky, atmosphere of earth; Isa. 34:4; Jer. 4:28; Mat. 24:35a; Mar. 13:31a; Luk. 31:33a; 2 Pet. 3:10a,12; Rev. 6:14), and earth (land / dirt, Eze. 38:8,18,21-22; Mat. 24:35b; Mar. 13:31b; Luk. 21:33b; 2 Pet. 3:10b; Rev. 20:7-10; and also the ocean therein) will "pass away", becasue of sin:

Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.​

Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:​

​

Genesis 1 does not refer, anywhere, to the already existing unfallen universe (Job 38:7 KJB, &c.). Genesis 1 is only focused upon the earth / world, its atmosphere (Gen. 1:20 KJB) and the local Sol system, with its greater light (Sun / Sol), lesser light (moon), and 'stars' (local Sol system "planets"; Gen. 1:14; 2 King. 23:5 KJB). So the moon will get a retouching up back to its original glory, and the falling debris (comets from Noahs flood ejected into 'space' will be removed, etc), and both Sun and moon moved back into their places (Joe. 3:16; Hag. 2:6; Heb. 12:26 KJB) upon the creation of the New Heaven and Earth. The rest of the universe is unchanged.

Now this is not the same as life immortal which would never break down and cease functioning.

Immortality is the existence in the rest of the unfallen universe. There is no death, decay in the rest of the universe, only localized here.

So instead of looking at the picture as beginning with life - death - life. I could look at it as death - life.

But that is incorrect. Only life begets life, it is the law (demonstrated and witnessed every day) of Biogenesis. God is life, and it requires God for life.

Now many people may argue that the Genesis account of the creation of the world and the universe was perfect in the beginning, but the word used in English translations that God said it was Good doesn't actually mean perfect in it's original usage. It is actually closer to saying it was acceptable to God (Workable or useful for all intended purposes) We all could have the idea of life and death backwards.

Incorrect. The word used in Gen. 2:1 is "ויכלו", "way'khuLû", "finished" H3615, and means perfected, brought to complete perfection, finished.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.​

Gen 2:1 ויכלו השׁמים והארץ וכל־צבאם׃​

Gen 2:1 way'khuLû haSHämayim w'hääretz w'khäl-tz'vääm​

The rabbis also comment on this:

"Each week, at the start of Shabbos, we recite kiddush and bear witness to the original act of Creation stating “ויכלו השמים והארץ וכל צבאם,” or “Then the heavens and the Earth were completed in all their array.” R. Soloveitchik points out that, interestingly, Targum Onkelos translates the word “ויכלו” — most commonly rendered as “finished” — as “perfected.”"​

טוֹב (tov)
The first use of this word is in Genesis chapter one where Elohiym calls his handiwork "good" (as it is usually translated). It should always be remembered that the Hebrews often relate descriptions to functionality. When Elohiym looked at his handiwork, he did not see that it was "good," he saw that it was functional-"like a well oiled and tuned machine."

Hebrew Word Definition: Good | AHRC

Defining Hebrew words within their original cultural context.

www.ancient-hebrew.org

The word "good" and "very good", are not meant to mean "perfected" since JEHOVAH Elohiym was still in the process of Creating (during those 6 days), and thus only each individual day was complete in isolation, but not complete in total without all of the days in completion. Thus each day is "good" in its own sphere, complete as it is, and the sixth day is "very good", since all the creating was now done, but one thing was still needful, and it was God's sealing by the rest (ceasing to speak creation) of God, perfecting it with JEHOVAH Elohiym's presence.

Therefore, what God brought to completion / perfection, no man may add thereto or take away from and it not be imperfection, since the world is a creation by God's words. "And God said ..." To add or take away from anything that God brought to completion / perfection is to make it un-perfect, incomplete, which is exactly what the devil, through the serpent, convinces Eve of, that she was incomplete, and needed something else beyond what God had supplied for them in completion / perfection.

 

[2bme]

I need to explain something here -

This whole universe is specifically designed to incorporate entropy. So everything that is existing now will eventually break down and cease its function. Now this is not the same as life immortal which would never break down and cease functioning. So instead of looking at the picture as beginning with life - death - life. I could look at it as death - life. Now many people may argue that the Genesis account of the creation of the world and the universe was perfect in the beginning, but the word used in English translations that God said it was Good doesn't actually mean perfect in it's original usage. It is actually closer to saying it was acceptable to God (Workable or useful for all intended purposes) We all could have the idea of life and death backwards.

טוֹב (tov)
The first use of this word is in Genesis chapter one where Elohiym calls his handiwork "good" (as it is usually translated). It should always be remembered that the Hebrews often relate descriptions to functionality. When Elohiym looked at his handiwork, he did not see that it was "good," he saw that it was functional-"like a well oiled and tuned machine."

Hebrew Word Definition: Good | AHRC

Defining Hebrew words within their original cultural context.

www.ancient-hebrew.org

I'm not interested in defending this as if I consider it as rock solid fact. Hmm.. maybe I shouldn't pose it that way. However these are just ideas of looking at things differently, like life or death. Also I do realise @Riven is dealing with losing someone, and it helps to have different ways of looking at the standards we put on life or death or cheesecakes (That will make sense later for only one of you)

 

[2bme]

Oh cheesecake you came and you saw I was lonely, and you smelled so lemony.....

 

[2bme]

I have a brilliant idea. A donut with cheesecake filling. Oooooo mmm.

 

[Adventageous]

I have a brilliant idea. A donut with cheesecake filling. Oooooo mmm.

Looks like someone beat you to it - Cheesecake Donut Recipe: The Dreamy Dessert Mashup You Need To Try

 

[2bme]

Looks like someone beat you to it - Cheesecake Donut Recipe: The Dreamy Dessert Mashup You Need To Try

That rocks! Now I have a new dessert to kill myself faster with. Sorry babydoll looks like something else has taken the place of emotional filler (Cheesecake filler)

Oh - By babydoll I mean my daughter babydoll.

 

[Adventageous]

That rocks! Now I have a new dessert to kill myself faster with. Sorry babydoll looks like something else has taken the place of emotional filler (Cheesecake filler)

Oh - By babydoll I mean my daughter babydoll.

 

[2bme]

View attachment 78606

+ Fried cheese.

 

[Traveler]

Read about Phineas Gage, and others like him - Phineas Gage - Wikipedia

I would defer to my own observations, I have way more than just one case.

 

[2bme]

+ Fried cheese.

+ More fried cheese.
Here's a visual image:

(It's not meat or bread it's pure goat cheese fried)

 

[Lambano]

View attachment 78606

Need to post that one in the Donut thread.

 

[rockytopva]

IF E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2) --- Making this eternal stuff... All mass is basically cooled plasma

Atoms - Encapsulated forms of energy and light - C2 in the denominator makes for the potential of a lot of energy!
Cells - Trillions of atoms within a single cell
Body - Trillions of cells in a human body

It would take quite the mind to create living organisms out of plasma energy! But God can create life and death just with speaking life to the mass alone... And the greater the challenge the more fun it is for him in the playground of Mass (m)...

1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. - Ezekiel 37

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

 

[Jericho]

I see NDE’s as something that happens to a dying brain, not a dead one.

This has been proposed before, but some experiences were involved when there was no brain activity at all, such as in the case of Pam Reynolds. Regardless, there is simply no other logical explanation for someone who seen or heard something while they were clinically dead and it was later confirmed by others. When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Also, it makes no sense that a dying brain, if it is even capable, would specifically create a vision or hallucination of the afterlife. Why that and not something else? It's not like their brains get to pick and choose.

They are also strangely religious to those of certain faiths and are often linked to their religious beliefs.

That would not mean they are not true or contradictory. It just means what they see is interpreted through their religious/cultural beliefs. We can find instances of that even now. People can see the same exact event yet come to two very different conclusions. It's a matter of differing perspectives. Still, many NDEs do have common themes.

If that is true then why was it included in God’s law that necromancy (supposed communication with the dead) was forbidden?

Necromancy involves the living summoning the dead. That's not what's happening with NDEs. It's the dead speaking with the dead. And if there were an after life, that's exactly what we would expect to happen.

Saul never saw what the spirit medium saw. She described him to Saul who was then convinced that it was Samuel. He needed it to be Samuel....But demons can impersonate the dead and can tell people everything they want to know, even details that no one else does....they have been around for thousands of years, observing everything, and they know us better than we know ourselves.

True, but demons don't know the future and they don't tell the truth. The ghost of Samuel didn't say anything untrue or contradict God. He only confirmed what God has already decreed, rebuked Saul, and enforced accountability, just as an actual prophet of God would do. He also prophesized that the Philistines would defeat Israel and Saul and his sons would die the very next day and it happened.

Those ‘well documented cases’ are not what you think....there is no immortal soul taught anywhere in the Bible.

I know that's your theology, but I disagree. It certainly does teach of an immortal soul if taken literal. If you're going to make the case that the Bible doesn't directly say the soul exists, then the same can be said of soul sleep. Sure, you can interpret certain verses to fit your theology, but then so can I. Regardless, the idea of soul sleep would have been foreign to the ancient world.

Adam was not “given” a soul at his creation...he “became” a soul when God started him breathing....

I have heard this before, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of life after death, nor does it exclude humans from being more than nephesh. If both humans and animals have a nephesh, then what is the thing that separates us? There has to be something more. Nephesh is translated to "psyche" in the Septuagint. If nephesh were strictly biological in nature, they could have used the Greek word "bios." By using the word "psyche," it suggests something that includes the physical but is also something more than just physical.

Souls die...they are entirely mortal. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Death doesn't always mean a physical death but eternal separation from God (i.e., the Second Death (Rev 21:8)).

some have been very imaginative in this....but “the grave” (Sheol/hades) is a place where the dead “sleep”.

Sheol is not merely the physical grave. Sheol is the underworld, the realm of the dead. It is the place where they believed they would be gathered with their ancestors when they died.

 

[marks]

True, but demons don't know the future and they don't tell the truth. The ghost of Samuel didn't say anything untrue or contradict God. He only confirmed what God has already decreed, rebuked Saul, and enforced accountability, just as an actual prophet of God would do. He also prophesized that the Philistines would defeat Israel and Saul and his sons would die the very next day and it happened.

And of course the Bible in it's narrative genre states that it was Samuel who spoke to Saul, not a demon or other impersonator.

1 Samuel 28:12-16 KJV
12) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14) And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16) Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

If the inspired Scriptures tell me Samuel spoke to Saul, I believe that.

Much love!