Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

Now you're just being dishonest.

I don't come on here to teach Beebster.
If YOU do that's fine.
Not like you'll be teaching anyone.

You see, in order to teach someone...a higher authority than yourself has to give you the authority to teach.

You might remember Matthew 28:19

That's rich.
Look around this forum.
And how many denominations are there? And why?

Yeah.
Strange ain't it?
Jesus said we are to be united.
Paul agreed with Him.

And yet look at all the denominations because some want to change the Christian religion.
And there's your why.

1 Timothy 4:1
4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

That's just rude.

Saying that there are CONDITIONS to being saved is rude?


Let's see if John and Jesus agree with you:

Here's ONE condition: I believe I already posted it....

John 3:16
16 “For God [a]so loved the world, that He gave His [b]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


Here's ANOTHER condition:

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


Here's ANOTHER condition:

John 14:15
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


There are plenty more if you need more.

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. (Job 23:13)

Well there you have it; when God desires something he does it.

Really?
Then why isn't everyone saved?
Then why are there CONDITIONS?

Really, why would anyone think otherwise?

1 Timothy 4
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.

Commanding and teaching otherwise would not be very obedient.

Yes sir.
The living God IS the Savior of all mankind.
IF the man accepts the conditions of course.

YOUR very own verse says so:
Let's take a look:

YOUR verse

1 Timothy 4
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.


See?
SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE....
means that God is the Savior of those that believe.
Maybe you need a more simple version so you can understand what ESPECIALLY means?

And WHAT exactly are we to teach?
One of the conditions:
John 3:16 THOSE THAT BELIEVE WILL BE SAVED.

As you know,,,there are other conditions which we won't get into again.

We went over that in post # 798. All will learn righteousness, bow and confess.

We went over it.
I taught
but YOU
did not LEARN.

See. Teaching on these Forums doesn't help much.

But it might help some new Christian reading along that needs correct theology.

 

[GodsGrace]

Beebster said:
Chapter and verse please. Don't bother though, you won't find it.
The scriptural fact is, you must die in order to be saved.

We are all judged and must all die first.
That does not prove your point at all.

Since you will not clarify your belief system...it IS difficult to speak to you regarding it.

You SEEM to be a universalist.
Maybe.

Just want everyone reading along to know that we get JUDGED at the time of our death.
If universalism is correct
JUDGEMENT IS NOT NECESSARY since we will all be saved.

No ma'am.
First of all that is a parable.
Yes it is true but not literally true.

Yes sir.
You have a lot to learn if you think Luke 16:19-31 is a parable.

Secondly, and to prove a point, you said you didn't teach on this forum. Well, sounds like you're trying to teach me here.

What is Abraham's bosom?
Who s Lazarus?

That parable has to do with this:

And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. {Luk 13:29:30}

That parable has to do with what I taught you.

It does NOT refer to what you're speaking of.
No sir.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace and Greetings gpresdo,

Yes, it would be beneficial to understand "what begotten means". I have yet to see an adequate explanation by Trinitarians, and there have been a number of different explanations. Your definition seems reasonable, but how and when do you apply this to Jesus?

HOW is begotten applied to Jesus?

AGAIN
John 1:1 THE WORD WAS WITH GOD.
John 1:14 THE WORD BECAME FLESH.


Something that was WITH GOD AND WAS GOD
was with God and was God.

Simple.

Is your leg with you?
Is it a part of you?
Was it always with you or was it created at some point?

That is not the Bible definition of "Christian".

Kind regards
Trevor

What do YOU believe the definition of Christian is?

 

[GodsGrace]

"Begat" (Greek gennao) is used to describe childbirth. And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be mighty upon the earth. (1 Chronicles 1:10. Fathers precede sons.

So who cares what begat means outside of theology?
I don't.

 

[amigo de christo]

I guess that is what you’ve heard Amigo...have you any examples where we have mistranslated anything?
Please present your research.....

Be careful about what you hear....but have not really investigated....that could be the deception you are warning others about....never pass on gossip. Check your facts first.

In case you haven’t noticed, I rarely use the NWT on this site for that very reason...I use popular translations like the ESV or the NASB....I will use Christendom’s own reference works to show up their errors.
It packs more of a punch that way.....

namely the a word and a god . They sure forgot , however to change all reminders . Guess his so called greek
only applied to what places he thought he knew that spoke about the Godhead . They missed some even in their own bible .

 

[Wrangler]

I still prefer studying the Bible on my own and am not accustomed to learning from others’ perspectives, because I have my own way of studying.

Different strokes for different folks.

I love my Study Bibles, which are all variations of "learning from others’ ADVANCED perspectives." It gives me so much insight that would take me years, if I ever make the connections on my own.

Let me give an example from my 2017 NSRV Cultural Bible. There was a man who said he wanted to follow Jesus but had to "bury his father." This is an idiom at the time which roughly translates to "when hell freezes over." I never knew that until I embraced "learning from others’ ADVANCED perspectives."

You sound like a lover of the Bible. To people who don't know Christ, it's not your knowledge that will set them free. In outreach, the Bible is 2nd. 1st is establishing a relationship, where they trust what you have to say. Then the ground is fertile for Biblical reference. And the STARTING POINT is not nuanced doctrine but getting them to recognize their desperate need for a Lord and Savior. The rest will take care of itself.

 

[Lambano]

So who cares what begat means outside of theology?
I don't.

The language and imagery used by the original authors informs the theologian what the authors had in mind.

And one thing that should be beyond question: The original Christians considered Jesus Christ to be the son of God.

 

[Beebster]

No one said it was....we have a will that is God given.....

Yes we have a wiil.

It drives us to achieve whatever we want to do....
There is no force...but temptation is something that can drive us in the wrong direction....sometimes against our better judgmewill.

That is contradictory. Drive is force.

They were sinless until they chose to sin...disobedience was sin...the penalty was death.

So is lust:

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (Gen 3:6)

”Perfect” in the biblical sense, means that something is exactly what it is designed to be and as far as humanity was concerned, as God’s last important creation, they were included in what God declared to be “very good”.

That would include Satan.
Was Satan perfect?

For a Creator who does not create defective things, humanity was all that he wanted them to be.

And then man became defective?

Cause or reason? There is a difference.

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

rea·son
/ˈrēz(ə)n/

noun

1. 1.
   a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.
   "the minister resigned for personal reasons"

Humans rarely do anything for no reason, even if there is no pressing cause or something to force them to make a certain decision.

Everything we do has a cause.

Temptation is not something that needs to be acted upon....that is a choice. Free will means we have choices.

It most certainly does need to be acted on.
When you are tempted to do something you are forced to make a decision. You act on it or you don't.

Satan made a choice to tempt the woman....because he had free will.

No Satan does not have free will.

Why on earth would the devil tempt Jesus if there was no possibility of him abusing his free will?

Yeah, play that out.

This is my third begotten son (insert name). He is the one that thwarted Satans tempting......

I dont think so.

Jesus had a will, but it was not free will.

How on earth could what resulted from Adam’s disobedience, be what God wanted? You’ve lost me....

God is creating humanity in his image and to know good and evil is a requisite.

 

[Lambano]

Anyway, in biblical language BEGOTTEN means unique, one of a kind.

Monogenēs, the word used in John 1:14 and the more famous John 3:16, can mean "only-begotten" or "unique, one of a kind". However, the verb form gennao without the mono, used in the LXX translation of Psalm 2 and quoted in Acts and Hebrews in relation to Christ (‘You are My Son; Today I have begotten You') does not carry the meaning of uniqueness. It carries the connotation of bringing forth something that wasn't there before, specifically in childbirth.

Not that I would know anything about childbirth.

 

[Beebster]

God's Word can create anything.
I believe we're discussing God here.

Way to change the context of post 481.
Very dishonest.

 

[Beebster]

The Apostles had no clue?
Peter had no clue.
Thomas had no clue.

More dishonesty..
Changing the context of the discussion again.

 

[Beebster]

Looks like I'm 100% right.

I said God's word creates.
And YOU posted Genesis 1:3
LET THERE BE LIGHT AND THERE WAS LIGHT.

Thanks!

What you said was:

GodsGrace:
God's word creates.
NOT the spoken word.

You conveniently removed "NOT the spoken word." after you were proven wrong.

More dishonesty on your part.

 

[Beebster]

Saying that there are CONDITIONS to being saved is rude?

But that's not what you said is it?

Here's what you said:

GodsGrace:
:Sir,,,there are conditions to being saved.
Conditions you most probably do not accept."

I'm starting to think you're a dishonest person.

 

[Beebster]

I don't come on here to teach Beebster.
If YOU do that's fine.
Not like you'll be teaching anyone.

And a few paragraphs later you say:

We went over it.
I taught
but YOU
did not LEARN.

See. Teaching on these Forums doesn't help much.

But it might help some new Christian reading along that needs correct theology.

Perhaps if you are honest moving forward "some new Christian reading along" might actually believe you.

 

[GodsGrace]

The language and imagery used by the original authors informs the theologian what the authors had in mind.

And one thing that should be beyond question: The original Christians considered Jesus Christ to be the son of God.

The original Christians believed Jesus to be God.

Maybe if I post it enough times, some will come to believe that what started to be taught a couple of hundred years ago is a heresy (not orthodox Christianity).

Here is what the original Christians believed:



Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9

Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14

Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.15

1 of 3

 

[GodsGrace]

@Lambano

2 of 3

Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.16

He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.17

Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.18

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.19

Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.20

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.21

For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....22

Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,

For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.23

Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.... That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.24

Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other , and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that they are distinct from each other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter...even the Spirit of truth,” thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality?25

As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.26

 

[GodsGrace]

@Lambano

3 of 3

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.27

For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, God the Word with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity; but as, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father, so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself.28

For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word.29

Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven, (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name.... He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man. Thus then, too, though demonstrated as God, He does not refuse the conditions proper to Him as man, since He hungers and toils and thirsts in weariness, and flees in fear, and prays in trouble. And He who as God has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow.30

Origen (AD 185-254) was another early Christian theologian. He writes,

Jesus Christ...in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was.31

Seeing God the Father is invisible and inseparable from the Son, the Son is not generated from Him by “prolation,” as some suppose. For if the Son be a “prolation” of the Father (the term “prolation” being used to signify such a generation as that of animals or men usually is), then, of necessity, both He who “prolated” and He who was “prolated” are corporeal. For we do not say, as the heretics suppose, that some part of the substance of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father out of things non-existent, i.e., beyond His own substance, so that there once was a time when He did not exist.... How, then, can it be asserted that there once was a time when He was not the Son? For that is nothing else than to say that there was once a time when He was not the Truth, nor the Wisdom, nor the Life, although in all these He is judged to be the perfect essence of God the Father; for these things cannot be severed from Him, or even be separated from His essence.32

For we who say that the visible world is under the government to Him who created all things, do thereby declare that the Son is not mightier than the Father, but inferior to Him. And this belief we ground on the saying of Jesus Himself, “The Father who sent Me is greater than I.” And none of us is so insane as to affirm that the Son of man is Lord over God. But when we regard the Savior as God the Word, and Wisdom, and Righteousness, and Truth, we certainly do say that He has dominion over all things which have been subjected to Him in this capacity, but not that His dominion extends over the God and Father who is Ruler over all.33

Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding.34

But it is monstrous and unlawful to compare God the Father, in the generation of His only-begotten Son, and in the substance of the same, to any man or other living thing engaged in such an act; for we must of necessity hold that there is something exceptional and worthy of God which does not admit of any comparison at all, not merely in things, but which cannot even be conceived by thought or discovered by perception, so that a human mind should be able to apprehend how the unbegotten God is made the Father of the only-begotten Son. Because His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy which is produced from the sun. For it is not by receiving the breath of life that He is made a Son, by any outward act, but by His own nature.35

And that you may understand that the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same, as God and the Lord are one and the same with the Father, listen to the manner in which John speaks in the Apocalypse: “Thus saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” For who else was “He which is to come” than Christ? And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Savior is also God; so also, since the Father is called omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also called omnipotent.36

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

HOW is begotten applied to Jesus?
AGAIN
John 1:1 THE WORD WAS WITH GOD.
John 1:14 THE WORD BECAME FLESH.
Something that was WITH GOD AND WAS GOD
was with God and was God.
Simple.

I apply your definition "Begotten: To come forth from,,,To be generated from,,, (biblical language)" to the narrative of Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. So I do not know what you are suggesting by your next comments:

Is your leg with you?
Is it a part of you?
Was it always with you or was it created at some point?

Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 describe the begettal of the human Jesus, the Son of God because God the Father is the father and the son of Mary as his mother. This describes how Jesus came forth and was generated.

What do YOU believe the definition of Christian is?

The word "Christian" first occurs in Acts 11:26 and is applied to the warm fellowship of the Jews and Gentiles of Antioch, who shared the teaching of Barnabas and Paul.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Monogenēs, the word used in John 1:14 and the more famous John 3:16, can mean "only-begotten" or "unique, one of a kind". However, the verb form gennao without the mono, used in the LXX translation of Psalm 2 and quoted in Acts and Hebrews in relation to Christ (‘You are My Son; Today I have begotten You') does not carry the meaning of uniqueness. It carries the connotation of bringing forth something that wasn't there before, specifically in childbirth.

Not that I would know anything about childbirth.

Monogenes (μονογενής) is a Greek word meaning "only one of its kind," "unique," or "single-born," often used in religious texts for Jesus, denoting him as God's unique Son, but also for figures like Isaac as a special, covenant-chosen child, highlighting uniqueness within a relationship rather than strict birth order. While often translated as "only begotten," modern scholarship emphasizes "one-of-a-kind" or "unique" to capture its broader sense of singular distinction, stemming from monos (single) and genos (kind, race).

source: Gemini


I wouldn't attempt to use Hebrews to show anything except that JESUS IS GOD.

 

[GodsGrace]

Way to change the context of post 481.
Very dishonest.

I'm not here to discuss a word....
a literal word.

I'm here to discuss theology and apologetics.

If you think I'm dishonest you should stop posting to me.
I tend not to post to dishonest persons.