How can there be life after death?

[Riven]

Also, it makes no sense that a dying brain, if it is even capable, would specifically create a vision or hallucination of the afterlife. Why that and not something else? It's not like their brains get to pick and choose.

Our brains create extremely vivid and interactive movies at night called dreams all on their own.

That would not mean they are not true or contradictory. It just means what they see is interpreted through their religious/cultural beliefs.

If the brain is offline when these visions occur, what's doing the interpreting?

Sheol is not merely the physical grave. Sheol is the underworld, the realm of the dead. It is the place where they believed they would be gathered with their ancestors when they died.

Because humans don't want to believe that they cease to exist after death. It's fairly universal.

 

[Adventageous]

Our brains create extremely vivid and interactive movies at night called dreams all on their own.

One of the reasons for dreams (not the only one), given in scripture comes from:

Ecc_5:3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.​

In other words, the days activities unwind in the brain, the thoughts, images, throughout the day, the experiences seen / heard meld in the mind, to sort of unwind, or shelve those things.

If the brain is offline when these visions occur, what's doing the interpreting?

An "offline" (dead) brain cannot think at all, that is scriptural:

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

​

Psa_146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

​

Job_14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.​

This means that anyone that is actually dead, cannot receive visions, dreams, sights, sounds, etc.

Hospitals sometimes declare people clinically dead, and sometimes brain dead based on machine electrical current readings which simply fail to register, make a mistake, &c., and such persons can still be having mental electrical activity, and 'see things' if they come back from near-death. This does not mean that they actually died. The whole NDE is a mass of contradiction, and has multiple explanations, some immediately physical (brain trauma, lack of oxygen, electrical stimuli, foreign object embedded into the head, medical drugs in the system circulating, foreign living organism (worm, bacteria, virus, fungus, &c)) and others externally influencing such as devils present to convince people of the lie of 'life-after(during)-death' and 'immortal-soul/spirit theology' which allows them to more easily convince, and communicate with others that are in the midst of necromancy; and others while their brain is still functioning, though not registering on the machines, can still pick up audible and visual cues from surrounding doctors, nurses, hospital or trauma scene and the brain uses those elements in what it does.

This is not to negate those experiences, as 'nothing', since they are definitely 'something', but it places them into serious question, and unreliability, since most of them are contradictory to one another, generally involved with their own personal religion / belief / philosophy systems (whether Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, Muslim, atheist, &c., and tied to the people / experiences they personally know, and those systems are incompatible in their foundational tenets).

Because humans don't want to believe that they cease to exist after death. It's fairly universal.

Most of mankind do not "want to believe that they cease to exist after death" is "fairly universal" because of the lie of the devil from Gen. 3:4:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:​

And lo, most of the world now believes that, and since the explosion of spiritualism through the lies of such persons as the Fox sisters ( Fox sisters - Wikipedia ) and others (like Winchester - Sarah Winchester - Wikipedia ), and still others (such as Roman Catholicism and its Neo Platonic Dualism, and teleology), and so many even within Christianity are now practicing necromancy, right now, and thus all who believe in 'immortal soul / spirit' theology are indeed, by very definition, 'necromancers'. See the following:

Or simply read the chapter on that in the book (link) I provided earlier, here - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

When Jesus said, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. ..." (Jhn. 11:26 KJB), He was speaking of the living, and the resurrection to come. Those who fall sleep in the first death (die physically), simply rest in their graves until their respective resurrection, which is not a reunification of an aethereal 'immortal soul / spirit' to a corpse (lifeless body), but is simply a resurrection of the whole person / being from the dust of the earth, where God recreates the body (anew, immortal) and breaths His life into it, and the PC (Personal Christian; :) ) comes back on with memories / experiences intact, since God has a record and memory of all that is thought, said or done by the individual.

This means that in one way you are exactly correct. When a person dies, they are dead, and cannot think, know, dream, experience anything.

Resurrection is not 'life after (during) death', but is Life from the Dead to Life again. Anything else is simply spiritualism.

 

[Adventageous]

And of course the Bible in it's narrative genre states that it was Samuel who spoke to Saul, not a demon or other impersonator.

1 Samuel 28:12-16 KJV
12) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14) And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16) Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

If the inspired Scriptures tell me Samuel spoke to Saul, I believe that.

Much love!

No, please read the entire context, and see the following chapter (pages 41-44) - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

That was a 'familiar-spirit' of a devil masquerading as "Samuel". Please start at vs 1, and read carefully. Thank you.

 

[Gottservant]

How is such a thing possible? In order for the soul to leave the body upon death, it must break the laws of the universe. It is a supernatural event. But supernatural events do not happen in this universe precisely because they would break the laws of physics, and that's not possible.

[...]

So you can't break the sound barrier, because it would create a sonic boom?

 

[Adventageous]

So you can't break the sound barrier, because it would create a sonic boom?

A 'sonic boom' is not violating the laws of physics. The equative you have attempted to make is invalid. A 'sonic boom' is demonstration of the laws of physics in action, in a simple reaction to an object that is forcing its way in speeds exceeding "1,192 km/h (741 mph) at sea level and 20 °C (68 °F)." - Sonic boom - Wikipedia through 'atmosphere'. A 'sonic boom' would not occur in a vacuum of 'space'.

No physics have been broken in such a scenario, only seen / heard in action.

It is not really 'breaking' anything, and is a misnomer to say 'breaking the sound barrier'.

 

[marks]

No, please read the entire context, and see the following chapter (pages 41-44) - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

That was a 'familiar-spirit' of a devil masquerading as "Samuel". Please start at vs 1, and read carefully. Thank you.

Again, no. In a narrative passage of Scripture the Bible declares this was Samuel speaking.

Much love!

 

[Gottservant]

[...]

No physics have been broken in such a scenario, only seen / heard in action.

It is not really 'breaking' anything, and is a misnomer to say 'breaking the sound barrier'.

Not sure why you want to make it complicated. I did not say there would be a sonic boom in outer space. I just said the idea that the laws of physics are always in action because that's how they should be interpreted doesn't take into account that how the law is fulfilled can vary.

God did not give us "the One Great Commandment", He gave us Ten - does that mean He is not interested in which one we obey?

 

[Aunty Jane]

This has been proposed before, but some experiences were involved when there was no brain activity at all, such as in the case of Pam Reynolds. Regardless, there is simply no other logical explanation for someone who seen or heard something while they were clinically dead and it was later confirmed by others. When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Or a deception.....do you think that satan and his minions are incapable of such trickery?
Whose truth is supported in this experience? God’s truth, that the dead are not conscious? (Eccl 9:5, 10) That brain death is not death at all if the consciousness of the individual can still be manipulated? And I f the person can be revived, then the brain has not died. Brain death is irreversible.

OTOH, whose claim is supported if “you surely will not die” was what the devil told Eve?..his first lie.
But, what did God tell Adam?

Gen 2:16-17...ESV...
“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Gen 3:19....
“By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Where is an immortal soul even suggested there?
If there was an afterlife of eternal torment that was the penalty for Adam as the one responsible for the death of the entire human race, wasn’t God remiss for not warning him about that afterlife?

If OTOH death was actually a cessation of life...there was nothing to explain. Adam had seen animals die and Solomon wrote....
“I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.” (Eccl 3:18-20 ESV)

Jews held no belief in an immortal soul. They believed in resurrection.....which they believed was a return to life, once Messiah’s Kingdom ruled the earth. Jesus also spoke of this resurrection Timon. (John 5:28-29)

Also, it makes no sense that a dying brain, if it is even capable, would specifically create a vision or hallucination of the afterlife. Why that and not something else? It's not like their brains get to pick and choose.

Don’t leave the deceiver out of this equasion.....he will grasp any opportunity to mislead people, especially the biblically uneducated....which is actually the majority of those who profess the faith.
It’s a planned ignorance, created by Christendom, that satan can take full advantage of....when people are at their most vulnerable.
Who do we think is responsible for all the false beliefs there are in this world?

That would not mean they are not true or contradictory. It just means what they see is interpreted through their religious/cultural beliefs. We can find instances of that even now. People can see the same exact event yet come to two very different conclusions. It's a matter of differing perspectives. Still, many NDEs do have common themes.

Since the dead are actually dead....NDE’s rely on a common theme, which is the same in all faiths where immortality of the soul is assumed....the dead are not really dead....the Bible clearly states that they are.

Can you tell me where Lazarus was when Jesus raised him up? Where did Jesus say he was? (John 11:11-14)

Necromancy involves the living summoning the dead. That's not what's happening with NDEs. It's the dead speaking with the dead. And if there were an after life, that's exactly what we would expect to happen.

You think the demons have to wait to be invited to do their thing? They are opportunists of the worst order.
If you have swallowed their false scenarios, and perhaps even had a visitation from a dead loved one...guess who knows everything about them and can recount things that only that person would know.....it’s just how they roll. Deception is their stock in trade.

True, but demons don't know the future and they don't tell the truth.

Do we really know how much power the demons possess? In Bible times legions of then could inhabit one individual. These demons has the power to throw these ones to the ground and torment them in many ways.
We also have the account in Job where satan was permitted to afflict this righteous man to within an inch of his life. Don’t underestimate what the devil can do with ignorance about death. Who or what caused death in the first place? Who has a vested interest in perpetuating his first lie? He has most of the ignorant world still believing it.

The ghost of Samuel didn't say anything untrue or contradict God. He only confirmed what God has already decreed, rebuked Saul, and enforced accountability, just as an actual prophet of God would do. He also prophesized that the Philistines would defeat Israel and Saul and his sons would die the very next day and it happened.

There are no “ghosts” in the Bible.....this concept is also manufactured by false religion. If there is no immortal soul...there can be no “ghosts”. The only “spirits” who want to deceive you are demons who have learned their trade well from their master. God has a place to send them.

Matt 25:41, 46 ESV...Jesus said of the “goats” at the judgment....
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . .And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

What is the “eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”? Because the “goats” go there ahead of them....since spirit beings cannot be destroyed by literal fire....of what is this fire symbolic? And how is it “eternal”?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Continued....

I know that's your theology, but I disagree. It certainly does teach of an immortal soul if taken literal. If you're going to make the case that the Bible doesn't directly say the soul exists, then the same can be said of soul sleep. Sure, you can interpret certain verses to fit your theology, but then so can I. Regardless, the idea of soul sleep would have been foreign to the ancient world.

Yes, foreign to the ancient world...but not to ancient Israel who did not hold to pagan beliefs until they adopted them and then were punished by their God for doing so. Immortality of the soul is an ancient pagan belief, reinforced by God’s command not to enquire of the dead.....if they were harmless in life, why would God forbid communication with dead departed “souls”.

The reason is that the dead are not spirits...they have “fallen asleep” in death as Paul said....

1 Thess 4:15-17 ESV...
“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”

What is this Scripture saying to you that it is not saying to me?
Who are those who are “alive at the coming of the Lord”.....who will not precede the ones who have “fallen asleep”....”the dead in Christ”...who will “rise first”?
Then it says that “we who are alive, who are left “will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air”.

I have heard this before, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of life after death, nor does it exclude humans from being more than nephesh. If both humans and animals have a nephesh, then what is the thing that separates us?

It’s not that humans and animals “HAVE NEPHESH” but both “ARE NEPHESH”....”SOULS”.
Both die the same death (Eccl 3:18-20).....but what separates us is resurrection. Only humans are promised a return to life, not a continuation of it is some spirit realm. The only ones who inhabit the spirit realm are spirits.....souls are not spirits.

There has to be something more. Nephesh is translated to "psyche" in the Septuagint. If nephesh were strictly biological in nature, they could have used the Greek word "bios." By using the word "psyche," it suggests something that includes the physical but is also something more than just physical.

How do we use the word “psyche” in English?
Psychology....psychedelic....psychiatry....psychosomatic...all have to do with the conscious mind. A soul is the only living thing with a conscious mind.....animals are called “souls” but they are not promised everlasting life......”spirits” are never referred to as “souls” because they are two entirely different things. “Souls” breathe, “spirits” do not need exterior means of life support...like all souls do. Only a soul can die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Death doesn't always mean a physical death but eternal separation from God (i.e., the Second Death (Rev 21:8)).

It is clear when adding context to see what is intended....something real or symbolic?
The first death is real...we cease to breathe and we die due to organ failure.
The second death is permanent...it is an everlasting punishment because this death never ends....it is eternal cessation of life. Mortal souls are just that....”mortal”...which means that they can experience physical death. Spiritual death can occur whilst one is still breathing.

Sheol is not merely the physical grave. Sheol is the underworld, the realm of the dead. It is the place where they believed they would be gathered with their ancestors when they died.

You are talking about what the Jews turned “Sheol” into, in their later corruption. The “realm of the dead” suggested an environment rather than a place of containment. OrigInally, to be “gathered with their ancestors” was to be in the same place as they were...not in a conscious condition somewhere else, but in the common grave of mankind...the place that Solomon said that we all go. (Eccl 9:10)

Sheol came to mean more than the common grave, but other Scripture tells us that it is a place of silence, not activity.

Psalm 115:17 ESV...
“The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.”

 

[Adventageous]

Again, no. In a narrative passage of Scripture the Bible declares this was Samuel speaking.

Much love!

Again, yes, it is not Samuel. The context makes it clear it is not the actual deceased (dead, buried in a grave at Ramah in Israel; 1 Sam. 28:3 KJB) prophet Samuel at all, but an "evil spirit" (1 Sam. 16:14 KJB) masquerading as Samuel, and so called a "familiar spirit" (1 Sam. 28:7 KJB), which worked through the witch at Endor, and for which Saul eventually died for, since it was sin.

1 Chronicles 10:13 KJB - So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;​

​

1 Chronicles 10:14 KJB - And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.​

Now, that the texts are given in their proper context, and highlighted, so that the more important words are brought to the attention, let a question be asked.

QUESTION: DIDN’T KING SAUL SPEAK WITH THE DECEASED PROPHET “SAMUEL” THROUGH A WITCH AT ENDOR (1 Samuel 28)?

No. The “familiar spirit” wasn’t really the deceased prophet Samuel, as a “familiar spirit” is a “lying spirit” (1 Kin. 22:22-23; 2 Chr. 18:21-22 KJB) masquerading as the known deceased.

It was the (or a) devil masquerading as “Samuel” (which is why it is called a “familiar spirit”).​

​

The “witch” divines “by” the “familiar spirit” (1 Sam. 28:7 KJB).​

​

Saul enquires of the “familiar spirit” through a witch and not God (1 Sam. 28:8 KJB).​

​

Saul sees nothing, but takes the word of the (deceived) “witch” in what she claims to see by what the “lying spirit” presents to her.​

​

The witch sees “elohiym” (H430, “אלהים”, “'ĕlôhı̂ym”; aka false ‘gods’, ‘mighty ones’; or the fallen angels masquerading as (pretending to be) the deceased), not “nevi’im (H5030, “הנביאם”, “haN'viyim”, “prophets”) (1 Sam. 28:13,15 KJB).​

​

The chapter explicitly starts by saying the actual prophet Samuel was dead, and buried in Ramah (in Canaan), as a warning (1 Sam. 28:3 KJB) to the readers to not be confused.​

​

The passage says nothing of a resurrection, and there are no flesh and bones of any deceased raised to life; of which a witch has no power to do anyway being outside of God’s will.​

​

God also did not raise Samuel to life, since Samuel was buried in a differing city and not in enemy territory of Endor.​

• Since Saul grieved away the Holy Spirit (1 Sam. 16:14 KJB), God was no longer talking to Saul by dreams, Urim & Thummim of the High Priest, and neither by prophets (of which Samuel once was in life; 1 Sam. 28:6 KJB).

Saul left the safety of the land of Israel (Canaan) and travelled into enemy territory (Endor) under disguise at night in darkness so as not to be discovered, and be killed for violating his own law, and the law of God.​

That which the “familiar (taking on characteristics of someone we know) spirit” speaks is a mixture of truth and lies (Ishbosheth, Saul’s son, didn’t die the next day; 2 Sam. 2:8,10 KJB). Saul later commits suicide, having received a hopeless message by the lying “familiar spirit”, and died bereft of the Holy Ghost. His head was severed from his body which was later burned to bones. Those bones were finally buried in Benjamin, in Zelah in the sepulchre of Kish (2 Sam. 21:14 KJB). In contrast the prophet Samuel was faithful in life to God, and buried in Ramah. Saul wasn’t together “with” Samuel in death either, being buried in another place. The devil is the father of lies (Gen. 3:4; Jhn. 8:44; Rev. 16:14 KJB) but mixes truth into it (Gen. 3:5,7,22 KJB). Saul died for his sin of enquiring of the “familiar spirit” (1 Chr. 10:13 KJB).

God never even appears to utilize witchcraft for communication, and outright condemned all who did practice it, even to death and loss of eternal life (Exo. 22:18; Lev. 19:31, 20:6,27; Deu. 18:10; 1 Sam. 15:23; Isa. 8:19, 29:4; Gal. 5:20 KJB).

​

Leviticus 19:31 KJB - Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.​

​

1 Chronicles 10:13 KJB - So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;​

The scripture only calls the “familiar spirit” “Samuel” because that is to whom Saul desired to speak with (1 Sam. 28:11 KJB), and whom the devil was impersonating to deceive both the witch and Saul. It is not really the faithful Samuel, who was dead, and buried in Ramah, awaiting his resurrection in the day of the LORD. Samuel had left speaking with Saul a long time ago in life.

1 Samuel 15:35 KJB - And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.​

Just as in 1 Kin. 22:19-24; 2 Chr. 18:18-23 KJB, the “lying spirit” (satan) is able to interfere:

​

2 Thessalonians 2:9 KJB - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,​

​

2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJB - And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.​

​

2 Thessalonians 2:11 KJB - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:​

 

[Aunty Jane]

And of course the Bible in it's narrative genre states that it was Samuel who spoke to Saul, not a demon or other impersonator.

1 Samuel 28:12-16 KJV
12) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14) And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16) Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

If the inspired Scriptures tell me Samuel spoke to Saul, I believe that

God had made necromancy a violation of his law....he had Saul himself rid the land of spirit mediums because they summoned, not the dead but wicked spirits who impersonate them.

Read the account again and see that God’s living prophets would not speak to Saul because of his wicked disobedience, so why would a dead prophet speak to him, breaking God’s law to do so?

Saul saw no spirit of Samuel...the woman described him. So logically whatever spoke to the medium or to Saul was not Samuel.
The fact that it foretold something in the future, does not rule out their intervention in bringing it about.
How powerful are these spirits? Do we know?

 

[marks]

God had made necromancy a violation of his law....he had Saul himself did the land of spirit mediums because they summoned, not the dead but wicked spirits who impersonate them.

Read the account again and see that God’s living prophets would not speak to Saul because of his wicked disobedience, so why would a dead prophet speak to him, breaking God’s law to do so?

Saul saw no spirit of Samuel...the woman described him. So logically whatever spoke to the medium or to Saul was not Samuel.
The fact that it foretold something in the future, does not rule out their intervention in bringing it about.
How powerful are these spirits? Do we know?

The fact of the matter is that the Bible, inspired by God and true, claims it was Samuel speaking with Saul, and you can either believe it or not. Clearly you do not.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Again, yes, it is not Samuel. The context makes it clear it is not the actual deceased (dead, buried in a grave at Ramah in Israel; 1 Sam. 28:3 KJB) prophet Samuel at all, but an "evil spirit" (1 Sam. 16:14 KJB) masquerading as Samuel, and so called a "familiar spirit" (1 Sam. 28:7 KJB), which worked through the witch at Endor, and for which Saul eventually died for, since it was sin.

1 Chronicles 10:13 KJB - So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;​

​

1 Chronicles 10:14 KJB - And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.​

Now, that the texts are given in their proper context, and highlighted, so that the more important words are brought to the attention, let a question be asked.

QUESTION: DIDN’T KING SAUL SPEAK WITH THE DECEASED PROPHET “SAMUEL” THROUGH A WITCH AT ENDOR (1 Samuel 28)?

No. The “familiar spirit” wasn’t really the deceased prophet Samuel, as a “familiar spirit” is a “lying spirit” (1 Kin. 22:22-23; 2 Chr. 18:21-22 KJB) masquerading as the known deceased.

It was the (or a) devil masquerading as “Samuel” (which is why it is called a “familiar spirit”).​

​

The “witch” divines “by” the “familiar spirit” (1 Sam. 28:7 KJB).​

​

Saul enquires of the “familiar spirit” through a witch and not God (1 Sam. 28:8 KJB).​

​

Saul sees nothing, but takes the word of the (deceived) “witch” in what she claims to see by what the “lying spirit” presents to her.​

​

The witch sees “elohiym” (H430, “אלהים”, “'ĕlôhı̂ym”; aka false ‘gods’, ‘mighty ones’; or the fallen angels masquerading as (pretending to be) the deceased), not “nevi’im (H5030, “הנביאם”, “haN'viyim”, “prophets”) (1 Sam. 28:13,15 KJB).​

​

The chapter explicitly starts by saying the actual prophet Samuel was dead, and buried in Ramah (in Canaan), as a warning (1 Sam. 28:3 KJB) to the readers to not be confused.​

​

The passage says nothing of a resurrection, and there are no flesh and bones of any deceased raised to life; of which a witch has no power to do anyway being outside of God’s will.​

​

God also did not raise Samuel to life, since Samuel was buried in a differing city and not in enemy territory of Endor.​

• Since Saul grieved away the Holy Spirit (1 Sam. 16:14 KJB), God was no longer talking to Saul by dreams, Urim & Thummim of the High Priest, and neither by prophets (of which Samuel once was in life; 1 Sam. 28:6 KJB).

Saul left the safety of the land of Israel (Canaan) and travelled into enemy territory (Endor) under disguise at night in darkness so as not to be discovered, and be killed for violating his own law, and the law of God.​

That which the “familiar (taking on characteristics of someone we know) spirit” speaks is a mixture of truth and lies (Ishbosheth, Saul’s son, didn’t die the next day; 2 Sam. 2:8,10 KJB). Saul later commits suicide, having received a hopeless message by the lying “familiar spirit”, and died bereft of the Holy Ghost. His head was severed from his body which was later burned to bones. Those bones were finally buried in Benjamin, in Zelah in the sepulchre of Kish (2 Sam. 21:14 KJB). In contrast the prophet Samuel was faithful in life to God, and buried in Ramah. Saul wasn’t together “with” Samuel in death either, being buried in another place. The devil is the father of lies (Gen. 3:4; Jhn. 8:44; Rev. 16:14 KJB) but mixes truth into it (Gen. 3:5,7,22 KJB). Saul died for his sin of enquiring of the “familiar spirit” (1 Chr. 10:13 KJB).

God never even appears to utilize witchcraft for communication, and outright condemned all who did practice it, even to death and loss of eternal life (Exo. 22:18; Lev. 19:31, 20:6,27; Deu. 18:10; 1 Sam. 15:23; Isa. 8:19, 29:4; Gal. 5:20 KJB).

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Leviticus 19:31 KJB - Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.​

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1 Chronicles 10:13 KJB - So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;​

The scripture only calls the “familiar spirit” “Samuel” because that is to whom Saul desired to speak with (1 Sam. 28:11 KJB), and whom the devil was impersonating to deceive both the witch and Saul. It is not really the faithful Samuel, who was dead, and buried in Ramah, awaiting his resurrection in the day of the LORD. Samuel had left speaking with Saul a long time ago in life.

1 Samuel 15:35 KJB - And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.​

Just as in 1 Kin. 22:19-24; 2 Chr. 18:18-23 KJB, the “lying spirit” (satan) is able to interfere:

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 KJB - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,​

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2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJB - And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.​

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2 Thessalonians 2:11 KJB - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:​

In a plain narrative passage God informs us it was in fact Samuel, and you either believe the Bible to be true, or you do not, and clearly you do not. You've posted a list of reasons for which we should disbelieve God. Bravo!

What else will you not believe?

Much love!

 

[marks]

What's the point of being on a Christian forum when you won't believe the Bible???

 

[Aunty Jane]

What's the point of being on a Christian forum when you won't believe the Bible???

As a counter to that argument, what was the point of Jesus speaking to Jews if they already believed their own Scripture? Wasn’t it that their religious leaders taught a twisted version of it?

Was it that the majority of those Jews didn’t believe their own Bible, or was it that Jesus was presenting them with a reasonable explanation about why their religious instructors were misleading them? (Matt 23:13, 15) What was going to be the result of those false teachings?

Those who want to believe something, will believe it because of who told them it was true......let me introduce you to Christendom....

Why do you believe in immortal souls when the Bible does not teach in?
Can you not see why God forbade his people to “enquire of the dead”? Their Scripture said that the dead are not alive or conscious in spirit form. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Spirit mediums were required to speak to those spirit entities, whom we know exist, and the account of Saul and “the witch of Endor” is a clear example of it.

But can the demons interfere in people’s lives uninvited? You better believe that they can.

A deception is not the truth.....you are swallowing a deception....a very ancient one.
I have posted the Scriptural evidence, but apparently you can ignore Scripture when it disagrees with what you want to believe....? The majority agree with you....but the majority are not on the right road.....(Matt 7:13-14) The red flags are there....

I believe the whole Bible....what about you?

 

[Jericho]

Our brains create extremely vivid and interactive movies at night called dreams all on their own.

Sure, but my point was, it doesn't make sense that everyone who is dying would see the same or similar things. Dreams are random; NDEs are specific.

If the brain is offline when these visions occur, what's doing the interpreting?

I would make a distinction between the brain and the mind/consciousness for reasons already stated.

Because humans don't want to believe that they cease to exist after death. It's fairly universal.

The fact that it's universal is telling. Perhaps it's not that we want to believe, but we are hardwired to believe (by our creator).

 

[marks]

I believe the whole Bible....what about you?

This is a simple thing, a declarative statement in a narrative passage.

when it disagrees with what you want to believe....?

Intellectual dishonesty? Yep, I've heard that before. Last ditch for someone without a valid argument.

I believe this very plain saying of Scripture, and you do not. You think you have an argument for why this particular passage is not true, and I shall NOT join you in that.

Much love!

 

[Jericho]

@Aunty Jane I simply don't have the time to respond to every point, it would take way too long.

Since the dead are actually dead....NDE’s rely on a common theme, which is the same in all faiths where immortality of the soul is assumed.

Even atheists and non-believers have had NDEs. So, it’s not faith dependent. The fact that they have a common theme should be telling. The most simple explanation is because they're true.

There are no “ghosts” in the Bible.....this concept is also manufactured by false religion. If there is no immortal soul...there can be no “ghosts”. The only “spirits” who want to deceive you are demons who have learned their trade well from their master. God has a place to send them

I would agree only to a certain point. I don’t believe we become ghosts as in ethereal disembodied spirits. Even demons have a body; they’re just not made of the same physical substance we are. So, if you can believe demons and angels exist as non-physical beings, I don’t know why it’s such a stretch to extend that concept to humans, who were created but a little lower than angels.

Or a deception.....do you think that satan and his minions are incapable of such trickery?

Even if that were possible, and we don’t know that it is, it still would not invalidate all NDE experiences. Also, it would not make sense for Satan to deceive a believer in this way because nothing would be gained. If he showed them an afterlife that didn't exist, so what? A believer would still be resurrected all the same.

Jews held no belief in an immortal soul.

It should be apparent from the New Testament that they did if you don’t allegorize it away. It may be more obscure in the Old Testament, but then so is the resurrection. It can’t be presumed that all was revealed to them and they knew everything. There was clearly more revelation given to the New Testament saints than to the Old Testament saints.

Can you tell me where Lazarus was when Jesus raised him up? Where did Jesus say he was? (John 11:11-14)

I would say he was in Abraham’s bosom. I think it’s interesting that there is also a Lazarus in Jesus’ parable who was clearly dead but conscious. I don't know if they're the same person, and it wouldn’t matter if they weren't, but the concept of Abraham’s bosom is a biblical one.

Do we really know how much power the demons possess?

We know they are not omniscient like God. They can try and guess the future, but they can’t make it happen.

Both die the same death (Eccl 3:18-20).....but what separates us is resurrection. Only humans are promised a return to life, not a continuation of it is some spirit realm. The only ones who inhabit the spirit realm are spirits.....souls are not spirits.

On that point, you say that the only ones who inhabit the spirit realm are spirits. But look at Jesus in his resurrected body. He could be seen and touched; he could eat and drink. But he also ascended to heaven in his resurrected body. Clearly then, a resurrected body is capable of operating in both the physical and spiritual realms. If Jesus is the firstfruits (1 Cor 15:20), and we will be like Him (1 Jo 3:2), then what is true of Him is destined for us.

We will reign on earth (Rev 5:9–10), but we will also be seated in heavenly places (Eph 2:6). Our future destination then is not restricted to earth but all of God’s creation will be accessible to us. A physical body can't operate in the heavenly realm, and a heavenly body can't operate in this physical realm. One body is made for earth; the other is made for heaven. But a resurrected body is made for the day when both realms are fully united.

Yes, foreign to the ancient world...but not to ancient Israel who did not hold to pagan beliefs until they adopted them and then were punished by their God for doing so.

Ancient Israel certainly did borrow ideas from their pagan Mesopotamian neighbors from the start. The Nephesh, for instance, is almost identical to the Akkadian napīštu. And the concept of Sheol is very similar to Kur (Sumerian) and Irkalla (Akkadian). Not all things were revealed to ancient Israel by God. They didn't know, for example, that the Messiah would be born of a virgin, though hints were given. Nor did they foresee the church age or the inclusion of the gentiles. Such things would have been foreign to them. Therefore, their knowledge and understanding of things were incomplete.

The reason is that the dead are not spirits...they have “fallen asleep” in death as Paul said....

Obviously, how you interpret “fallen asleep” is different than how I do. “Falling asleep” to me is a euphemism, as someone dead has the appearance of someone asleep.

 

[Button]

How is such a thing possible? In order for the soul to leave the body upon death, it must break the laws of the universe. It is a supernatural event. But supernatural events do not happen in this universe precisely because they would break the laws of physics, and that's not possible.

My view is, once the brain dies, the person creases to exist because we are our brains. A great example of this is people who have suffered an extensive brain injury. They often experience significant changes in their personality because of the physical changes to their brains.

We still don't understand consciousness, it's true. It's possible that conciuousness is something that happens outside our brains and its interpreted in real time by the brain. However, I think that's unlikely given that it would require an insane amount of compute power from an outside source, and that the brain acting as a receiver would require an immense amount of power from the brain itself to interpret and render 3D reality in real time.

Therefore I conclude that it is very likely that there is nothing beyond the physical death of the brain. We return to the state we were in before we were born.

Thoughts?

Humans are egocentric by nature.
Don't believe it,just look to religions around the world.
Everybody who thinks they not only know God exists but are certain God talks to them exclusively.

As an agnostic,you should consider perhaps what is taught in Quantum field theory and quantum mechanics.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is a simple thing, a declarative statement in a narrative passage.

Read without context and understanding of the situation, will allow you to read into that narrative what was never there. The ancient Jews did not believe in immediate continuation of life after death.....they were taught about “resurrection”....which is a restoration of life....not a continuation of it somewhere else.

Intellectual dishonesty? Yep, I've heard that before. Last ditch for someone without a valid argument.

Or the truth is unacceptable because it is incompatible with what one wants to believe....I have given you valid Scriptural arguments...and you have rejected them...that is your choice.

I believe this very plain saying of Scripture, and you do not.

I do believe that plain passage of Scripture....but I also know the background of it and understand that it cannot be taken at face value. It was written by Jews for Jews, with their beliefs as the basis. They did not believe that the dead were alive as spirits....that belief was a later pagan adoption.

You think you have an argument for why this particular passage is not true, and I shall NOT join you in that.

Duly noted....What you choose to believe is entirely between you and your god. The truth doesn’t cease to be the truth because you don’t like it.

Is there a personal reason why you reject the truth in favour of that belief? Many like the idea that their dead loved ones are not really dead....but think for a moment what that means.

Are the dead in heaven looking down on us and seeing all that is happening in this wicked world to the people they have left behind....and there is nothing they can do to stop any of it. How happy can those in heaven be to witness such things? To see their loved ones make terrible mistakes and reap the consequences? Or to be the victims of heinous crimes, domestic violence or wars? Have you never thought about that? Isn’t it more humane to have the dead “sleep” and to be unaware of such things? (Psalm 115:17)