Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Spiritual Israelite]

I hit reply, but you've given not a single word worth replying to!

I have, but you refuse to do so. I point out that everything God created was very good and that you contradict that by saying Satan and demons were created evil and I get NOTHING from you in response.

I ask why you give likes to TS's posts where he denies the existence of angels and demons and I get NOTHING from you in response. On and on it goes.

You have nothing because your eyes are closed, and you would rather cling to myth and legend that keeps you from receiving truth!

These kinds of comments are MEANINGLESS! You think that just because others have believed the same as I do about this for a long time that means it's "myth and legend". RIDICULOUS! You also believe things that people have believed for a long time. Does that makes those things "myth and legend"? Of course not.

Like always you spout, and sputter without knowledge!

Look in the mirror! Which one of us is trying to claim that God created evil things when scripture EXPLICITLY teaches that EVERYTHING He created was very good (Genesis 1:31)? I'll give you a hint. It's not me.

All these replies and not a single verse to refute truth, and not a single verse to prove what you imagine by clinging to myth and legend from men of old that has been passed down from generation to generation!

I have given you plenty of verses in other posts. As if all of your posts contain verses? LOL! You are a hypocrite.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Another NONE REPLY! Worthless gibberish, not worthy of response!

You are describing most of your posts! Look in the mirror! But, unlike you, I actually answer any legitimate questions you have. Meanwhile, I can't get you to answer why you believe that God created beings like Satan and demons to be evil despite the FACT that EVERYTHING God created was VERY GOOD (Genesis 1:31). And I can't get you to answer why you support TS's posts where he denies the existence of any spirit beings that we call angels and demons even though, the last I checked, you do believe in the existence of spirit beings called angels and demons. Do you make a habit of encouraging people while they make claims that you don't even agree with?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

More of your slanderous unchristian stabs, without showing what I've said is unbiblical.

I have shown that. You just stubbornly refuse to see it. You said I gave zero rebuttal to what you said about Job 38 and that is an absolute LIE. I did give a rebuttal. I showed that the context of the passage was in direct relation to the time when God was creating the earth. Whether you agree with my rebuttal or not is beside the point. I did give a rebuttal and you LIED and said I didn't.

But I understand this, as I've said before when one cannot argue against the truth, they will usually resort to slander and accusations, attacking the messengers of Truth.

Says the guy who tries to tell me that I don't believe in scripture and don't believe the Word of God when I obviously do. I disagree with some of your opinions about The Word of God/scripture and that is not the same as not believing the Word of God.

It's so important for you and WPM to think you have truth that you will treat Christians in the vilest manner imaginable.

Look in the mirror, hypocrite!

 

[WPM]

Which human messengers exactly? Please tell me who exactly you think "the angels who sinned" are.


Are you still trying to say that verse 4 is referring to the people (human messengers) of Noah's day? No, it is not. You are absolutely mistaken about. Peter differentiates between "the angels who sinned" and the ungodly of Noah's day. Look at the text carefully.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Notice the word "and" there at the beginning of 2 Peter 2:5. That shows that Peter is saying in verse 5 that not only did God not spare the angels who sinned while casting them to Tartarus and reserving them for judgment, but He also spared not the ancient world consisting of the ungodly in Noah's day and He only saved Noah and his family. So, Peter differentiated between "the angels who sinned" and the ungodly of Noah's day. It's just not reasonable at all to claim that the ungodly of Noah's day are in view in 2 Peter 2:4. That makes verse 5 redundant. Peter went on to give a third example of a group that God judged and will punish in verse 6 when he referenced the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah.


It absolutely is. Only doctrinal bias can prevent you from seeing that.


That's what Peter points out in 2 Peter 2:5. No ungodly people were cast to Tartarus. They go to Hades, according to Jesus in Luke 16:23 where He references the rich man as being in Hades. There is no basis for equating Tartarus with Hades. Both are translated as "hell", but that doesn't make them the same. Even the grave where dead bodies are is sometimes translated as hell, so you need to consider the original language and text in cases like this.

So, you have no excuse for correcting your false belief. You have been told the truth about this and are too stubborn to adjust your belief accordingly.


Except that I have. Repeatedly. You are too stubborn to admit that your belief that Satan and demons were created evil blatantly contradicts the fact that everything God created was very good. And your supposed proof that it's not talking about angels in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 is just that the Greek word can also be translated as messengers (i.e. human messengers). Yet, all of the English translators translate the word as "angels". For a reason. It's because it's talking about angels and not humans.


That's your favorite comment, but it's meaningless. I study scripture for myself and it's not from "man of old" as you falsely accuse. I am showing you the scriptures that I base my beliefs on. I'm not quoting any "man of old" who told me what to believe. This accusation is a total copout. Address my beliefs, not the beliefs of "man of old". You believe some things that have been believed for a long time. Does that make those things not true? This is a ridiculous line of argument that you make here that I can't take seriously at all.


For about the tenth million time, everything God created was very good. Therefore, the one we call Satan and the ones we call demons had to have been very good when they were created. You have no way around that.

You can't take this verse out of your Bible.

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Also, there is no way around the fact that Genesis 1:3-5 is talking about literal light and darkness because they are related directly to the literal day and night and literal morning and evening. Your belief causes you to twist that text and change it to metaphorical light and darkness instead.


Just as Adam and Eve were created very good, so were Satan and demons. I know that because scrpiture expliclity says that EVERYTHING God created was very good. There is no way around this. No amount of meaningless talk about myths and men of old can change that.


You acknowledge here that man became wicked. He was created very good just like everything else, right? So, why are you able to understand that, but can't acknowledge that some angels also became wicked? It's not as if you don't allow for beings to be good and become wicked since that's what you believe about Adam and Eve.


Scripture primarily deals with the relationship with God and man. It's not the purpose of scripture to go into detail about the relationship between God and angels. So, this argument is very weak. And we know that God will indeed punish Satan and other evil spirit beings we call demons, so it's not as if God doesn't also punish spirit beings rather than only human beings.

This is the first subject I've ever seen rwb avoid multiple posts and multiple questions. That is because he is promoting error.

 

[WPM]

Which human messengers exactly? Please tell me who exactly you think "the angels who sinned" are.


Are you still trying to say that verse 4 is referring to the people (human messengers) of Noah's day? No, it is not. You are absolutely mistaken about. Peter differentiates between "the angels who sinned" and the ungodly of Noah's day. Look at the text carefully.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Notice the word "and" there at the beginning of 2 Peter 2:5. That shows that Peter is saying in verse 5 that not only did God not spare the angels who sinned while casting them to Tartarus and reserving them for judgment, but He also spared not the ancient world consisting of the ungodly in Noah's day and He only saved Noah and his family. So, Peter differentiated between "the angels who sinned" and the ungodly of Noah's day. It's just not reasonable at all to claim that the ungodly of Noah's day are in view in 2 Peter 2:4. That makes verse 5 redundant. Peter went on to give a third example of a group that God judged and will punish in verse 6 when he referenced the ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah.


It absolutely is. Only doctrinal bias can prevent you from seeing that.


That's what Peter points out in 2 Peter 2:5. No ungodly people were cast to Tartarus. They go to Hades, according to Jesus in Luke 16:23 where He references the rich man as being in Hades. There is no basis for equating Tartarus with Hades. Both are translated as "hell", but that doesn't make them the same. Even the grave where dead bodies are is sometimes translated as hell, so you need to consider the original language and text in cases like this.

So, you have no excuse for correcting your false belief. You have been told the truth about this and are too stubborn to adjust your belief accordingly.


Except that I have. Repeatedly. You are too stubborn to admit that your belief that Satan and demons were created evil blatantly contradicts the fact that everything God created was very good. And your supposed proof that it's not talking about angels in 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 is just that the Greek word can also be translated as messengers (i.e. human messengers). Yet, all of the English translators translate the word as "angels". For a reason. It's because it's talking about angels and not humans.


That's your favorite comment, but it's meaningless. I study scripture for myself and it's not from "man of old" as you falsely accuse. I am showing you the scriptures that I base my beliefs on. I'm not quoting any "man of old" who told me what to believe. This accusation is a total copout. Address my beliefs, not the beliefs of "man of old". You believe some things that have been believed for a long time. Does that make those things not true? This is a ridiculous line of argument that you make here that I can't take seriously at all.


For about the tenth million time, everything God created was very good. Therefore, the one we call Satan and the ones we call demons had to have been very good when they were created. You have no way around that.

You can't take this verse out of your Bible.

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Also, there is no way around the fact that Genesis 1:3-5 is talking about literal light and darkness because they are related directly to the literal day and night and literal morning and evening. Your belief causes you to twist that text and change it to metaphorical light and darkness instead.


Just as Adam and Eve were created very good, so were Satan and demons. I know that because scrpiture expliclity says that EVERYTHING God created was very good. There is no way around this. No amount of meaningless talk about myths and men of old can change that.


You acknowledge here that man became wicked. He was created very good just like everything else, right? So, why are you able to understand that, but can't acknowledge that some angels also became wicked? It's not as if you don't allow for beings to be good and become wicked since that's what you believe about Adam and Eve.


Scripture primarily deals with the relationship with God and man. It's not the purpose of scripture to go into detail about the relationship between God and angels. So, this argument is very weak. And we know that God will indeed punish Satan and other evil spirit beings we call demons, so it's not as if God doesn't also punish spirit beings rather than only human beings.

Apparently Satan, evil and sin are very good in God's eyes.

He has created his own Bible.

 

[WPM]

You're assuming the serpent being more subtle [cunning (usually in a bad sense):—crafty, prudent, subtil] than any beast of the field was not "very good" as the vehicle God intended to use that mankind might experience good and evil which they had not when God created man. How would mankind know good and evil without being introduced to (experiencing) good and evil?

Genesis 3:1 (KJV) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Does this verse tell us the serpent was CREATED good, and became evil? Or does it tell us only that the serpent WAS more subtle....?
Whether God created the darkness or simply spoke light into the darkness that was there when God created all things, makes no difference. Because the darkness nonetheless is used as a metaphor throughout the Bible as evil, and even the domain of evil spirits.

I believe your assumptions are based upon mythology that has been passed down from men of Old through the ages.

1. You make Satan out to be as eternal as God is.
2. You make God the source of evil.
3. You make God out to unrighteously advocate that Satan, demons and evil were (and obviously still are) "very good."

 

[WPM]

Address the questions you feel I have not answered!

You guys talk so cryptically. I wonder why? Why do you avoid post after post that refutes your arguments?

1. So, are unregenerate humans demons?
2. What are angels?
3. Are we angels?
4. Or, do angels possess us?

 

[Scott Downey]

We are ONLY like the angels in the age of the resurrection, before that we are not glorified like they are as we are now flesh and blood.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 22 - New King James Version

The Parable of the Wedding Feast - And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come...

www.biblegateway.com

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are [f]mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels [g]of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.


Anyone saying otherwise is going way beyond what is written

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 4 - New King James Version

Stewards of the Mysteries of God - Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even...

www.biblegateway.com

Stewards of the Mysteries of God​

1 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human [a]court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the [b]counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

Fools for Christ’s Sake​

6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be [c]puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who [d]makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

 

[WPM]

You are right. It is not the case because not only you misunderstood what I wrote but also your understanding of Job 1:4-8 is fatal flawed!

What you believe is a MISCONCEPTION mainly based on a misunderstanding of Old Testament Scriptures (like this one) and of Revelation Chapter 12 referring to cast out "angels".

I do not support the nonsense that Satan was in HOLY heaven with God, was commuting from heaven to earth, nor that he ever had come into God's third heaven after being kicked out. Nothing that offends is in the heaven where God dwells. Therefore, the heaven in view here is the Kingdom of heaven on earth, where God's people dwell! Get that part right first! There is no sin in heaven, no hypocrisy, no liar, no evil in heaven, only praise, glory and worship.

Now the context of Scriptures is also very important, and the context of this passage is the gathering together of God's people for feasts, communion and offerings unto the Lord for sin.

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
Mat 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Mat 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Mat 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
Mat 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.

Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first dayof the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
Mar 16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
Mar 16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
Mar 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
Mar 16:7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
Mar 16:8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.

Luk 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
Luk 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Joh 20:11 Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
Joh 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
Joh 20:13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.

Are these two of the redeemed who had conquered the grave before Jesus coming from heaven to open His tomb?

Your teaching is fool hearty.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

You can see how those who pretend that angels and demons are not real distinct spiritual entities diverse from man have no answer to the truth. Their silence is deafening. Here are more questions to add to the many avoided questions.

by allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture we see these sons of God refers to human messengers who are God's spiritual children on earth, and it is they who come to present themselves before the Lord. Actually the language of "present themselves before the LORD" is also confirming the illustration of their coming for the purpose of sacrifice, offering and forgiveness of sin of the Lord's congregation. THIS "is" the representation of the Lord's Heaven on earth. It is not an illustration about some fantasy supernatural angels or of Satan as a Angel presenting themselves in Holy heaven in the presence of God. God forbids. God says Satan was a Liar from the beginning, and no liar can enter God's Holy Heaven. Period! Get that part right, bud! Moses couldn't even stand before the glory of Holy God on the mountaintop, much less the epitome of evil and the father of lies come to stand where God dwells in all His glory. Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture we see that the language of "presenting oneself" before God, or [yatsab], is the language of the congregation making obeisance, supplication, oblation and contrition. It doesn't refer to literally standing in Third Heaven physically facing God. You are dreaming!

This is why I ask you to define spirits! Devils/demons/angels/Holy Spirit/God/Jesus are spirits that work within the spirit of man. Man doesn't become a spirit, rather the spirit in man becomes the nature of whatever spirit dwells in them. In unbelief the spirit in man becomes like the spirit of their father, the Devil. And when we are of faith the spirit in us becomes like the Spirit of Christ in us.

1. How can redeemed spirits (elect angels in your opinion) be with God before man was even born?
2. How can redeemed spirits (elect angels in your opinion) be coming down from heaven in the Old Testament before the first resurrection of Jesus occurred?
3. How can the spirits of wicked men (demons in your opinion) be entering into other wicked men, even to the number of Legion?

 

[WPM]

You are right. It is not the case because not only you misunderstood what I wrote but also your understanding of Job 1:4-8 is fatal flawed!

What you believe is a MISCONCEPTION mainly based on a misunderstanding of Old Testament Scriptures (like this one) and of Revelation Chapter 12 referring to cast out "angels".

I do not support the nonsense that Satan was in HOLY heaven with God, was commuting from heaven to earth, nor that he ever had come into God's third heaven after being kicked out. Nothing that offends is in the heaven where God dwells. Therefore, the heaven in view here is the Kingdom of heaven on earth, where God's people dwell! Get that part right first! There is no sin in heaven, no hypocrisy, no liar, no evil in heaven, only praise, glory and worship.

Now the context of Scriptures is also very important, and the context of this passage is the gathering together of God's people for feasts, communion and offerings unto the Lord for sin.

Job 1:4-5

• "And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
• And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually."

The context is God's people on earth, their days of feasting and Job's faithful sacrifice and offering for sin. And on one of these days, Satan was allowed to come in among them so that Job could be tried because God wanted to paint a portrait for all of us to understand.

Job 1:6

• "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

This is probably one of the most misunderstood verses in church today. The sons of God in Scripture refer to believers (Genesis 6:1; John 1:12; Romans 8:14; 1 John 3:1) who are spiritual children/sons of the Father. NOT angels as you assumed! And most certainly not "fallen Angels."

Luk 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Luk 2:15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.

How can redeemed spirits (elect angels in your opinion) be going back and forth from heaven in the New Testament before the first resurrection of Jesus occurred?

 

[WPM]

You are right. It is not the case because not only you misunderstood what I wrote but also your understanding of Job 1:4-8 is fatal flawed!

What you believe is a MISCONCEPTION mainly based on a misunderstanding of Old Testament Scriptures (like this one) and of Revelation Chapter 12 referring to cast out "angels".

I do not support the nonsense that Satan was in HOLY heaven with God, was commuting from heaven to earth, nor that he ever had come into God's third heaven after being kicked out. Nothing that offends is in the heaven where God dwells. Therefore, the heaven in view here is the Kingdom of heaven on earth, where God's people dwell! Get that part right first! There is no sin in heaven, no hypocrisy, no liar, no evil in heaven, only praise, glory and worship.

Now the context of Scriptures is also very important, and the context of this passage is the gathering together of God's people for feasts, communion and offerings unto the Lord for sin.

Job 1:4-5

• "And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
• And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually."

The context is God's people on earth, their days of feasting and Job's faithful sacrifice and offering for sin. And on one of these days, Satan was allowed to come in among them so that Job could be tried because God wanted to paint a portrait for all of us to understand.

Job 1:6

• "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

This is probably one of the most misunderstood verses in church today. The sons of God in Scripture refer to believers (Genesis 6:1; John 1:12; Romans 8:14; 1 John 3:1) who are spiritual children/sons of the Father. NOT angels as you assumed! And most certainly not "fallen Angels."

Act 5:18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
Act 5:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
Act 5:20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.

As you do not believe in real heavenly angelic beings, was this one of the spirits of the Old Testament prophets come back from the dead to let these men out of the prison? Or, was it one of the living apostles that broke into the prison and got them out?

 

[WPM]

Op Note

Can you see the folly of denying that demons and angels are real spiritual entities distinct from man. The avoidance on here is deafening.

 

[RepentingChristian]

Admittedly, I read the opening post but not yet the 29 pages of the ensuing discussion.

The only thing that I can add to this discussion for the moment is that years ago, when I was a "lukewarm Christian", my wife and I were visited by a demon. I absolutely believe that demonic entities exist. I am inclined to believe that Satan is also an entity that actually exists.

 

[WPM]

Admittedly, I read the opening post but not yet the 29 pages of the ensuing discussion.

The only thing that I can add to this discussion for the moment is that years ago, when I was a "lukewarm Christian", my wife and I were visited by a demon. I absolutely believe that demonic entities exist. I am inclined to believe that Satan is also an entity that actually exists.

Exactly. Anyone who is engaged in ministry or active Christianity will be aware that Satan and his demons are real evil entities desiring to control, possess, oppress or depress whoever.

 

[amigo de christo]

Exactly. Anyone who is engaged in ministry or active Christianity will be aware that Satan and his demons are real evil entities desiring to control, possess, oppress or depress whoever.

jus dont forget the fact that satan sure can and sure do lie .
And that he will come in as though he desires only the best for you , but oh do he lie .
HE can even say GOD is love and yet he and his many co workers
preach CONTRARY to even the gospel now as well as through their version of love
and of what they beleive is GOD , they lead this people into UPMOST rebellion against
THE ONLY TRUE GOD and HIS CHRIST JESUS that could have saved them .
THEY , through the love of darkness have led this people into outright hatred of even scriptures
the very words of GOD . SO much for that love . it cant save them , IT WILL ONLY destroy them .
BUT HEY satan dont love now does he . but he sure can pretend he do . watch out everyone
Watch out . ITS bible time in the house .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Admittedly, I read the opening post but not yet the 29 pages of the ensuing discussion.

The only thing that I can add to this discussion for the moment is that years ago, when I was a "lukewarm Christian", my wife and I were visited by a demon. I absolutely believe that demonic entities exist. I am inclined to believe that Satan is also an entity that actually exists.

Satan and his angels/demons love when people deny that they exist. It's easier for them to deceive people that way. No one who denies that they exist are going to be careful about not being deceived by their evil schemes by putting on the full armor of God.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

What does a passage like this mean to someone who denies the existence of the devil/Satan and demons? Who do they think that Paul is saying to take a stand against, if not a real being called the devil? Our struggle is not against flesh and blood humans, so who exactly do these people who deny the existence of Satan and demons think the rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world and spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms are that our spiritual struggle/battle is against? Scripture is very clear that Satan is a real, evil spirit being and that there are fallen angels/demons who are called "his angels" that work for him (Rev 12:9, Matt 25:41), so it's just unbelievable for any Christian to deny their existence.

 

[amigo de christo]

Satan and his angels/demons love when people deny that they exist. It's easier for them to deceive people that way. No one who denies that they exist are going to be careful about not being deceived by their evil schemes by putting on the full armor of God.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

What does a passage like this mean to someone who denies the existence of the devil/Satan and demons? Who do they think that Paul is saying to take a stand against, if not a real being called the devil? Our struggle is not against flesh and blood humans, so who exactly do these people who deny the existence of Satan and demons think the rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world and spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms are that our spiritual struggle/battle is against?

jus dont forget the fact that satan sure can and sure do lie .
And that he will come in as though he desires only the best for you , but oh do he lie .
HE can even say GOD is love and yet he and his many co workers
preach CONTRARY to even the gospel now as well as through their version of love
and of what they beleive is GOD , they lead this people into UPMOST rebellion against
THE ONLY TRUE GOD and HIS CHRIST JESUS that could have saved them .
THEY , through the love of darkness have led this people into outright hatred of even scriptures
the very words of GOD . SO much for that love . it cant save them , IT WILL ONLY destroy them .
BUT HEY satan dont love now does he . but he sure can pretend he do . watch out everyone
Watch out . ITS bible time in the house .

 

[WPM]

Satan and his angels/demons love when people deny that they exist. It's easier for them to deceive people that way. No one who denies that they exist are going to be careful about not being deceived by their evil schemes by putting on the full armor of God.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

What does a passage like this mean to someone who denies the existence of the devil/Satan and demons? Who do they think that Paul is saying to take a stand against, if not a real being called the devil? Our struggle is not against flesh and blood humans, so who exactly do these people who deny the existence of Satan and demons think the rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world and spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms are that our spiritual struggle/battle is against? Scripture is very clear that Satan is a real, evil spirit being and that there are fallen angels/demons who are called "his angels" that work for him (Rev 12:9, Matt 25:41), so it's just unbelievable for any Christian to deny their existence.

They have no answer. That is why they have fled to the hills. It is frankly ridiculous.

 

[rwb]

I don't deny the existence of the spirit being, Satan! What I've argued against is the belief that Satan is a fallen angel!

Tertullian (160 - 220) was the first of the church fathers who taught that Satan was a fallen angel, by quoting Ezekiel 28 (Against Marcion 2:10).

The Fall of Satan - Does the Bible teach it?​

Julian Spriggs M.A.​

The purpose of this article is to study the two passages in the Old Testament that are frequently used to teach that Satan is a fallen angel. The intention is to consider the two passages, setting them in their literary and historical context, to see whether this is a legitimate interpretation.

The two passages are: 1) Isaiah 14:12-15, a taunt against the king of Babylon. 2) Ezekiel 28:11-19, a lament about the king of Tyre. Because Satan is not specifically named in either passage, we should be cautious about making any claim that they are describing Satan. This would be an interpretation of the text, which is open to different opinions, rather then a direct observation. It is also important to note that both of these passages are written in poetry, using the vivid picture language and imagery typically employed by the OT prophets.

The popular teaching on the fall of Satan​

The popular teaching about the fall of Satan normally follows this, or a similar, outline: Satan was once a beautiful angel, the greatest of all created beings. He rebelled against God and became the devil before man was created. Originally there were three archangels, Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer; each ruled one third of the angels. Michael and Gabriel remained faithful to God, but Satan rebelled, taking one third of the angels with him, who became the demonic forces.

Some teach that Satan was the heavenly choirmaster, with musical instruments built into his body. This is supported from Ezekiel 28:13: "the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created". However this translation is only found in the King James Version (KJV). The NKJV is very similar. The NRSV renders it: "and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings", with a foot-note indicating that the meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain. The NIV is as follows: “Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.”, also with a footnote saying that the meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain.

Some also teach that there was a population of humans on the earth before Adam, known as the pre-adamic race, which Lucifer was given authority over. They rebelled and were judged by a flood, and Lucifer became Satan. After judgement, the earth was remade as described in Genesis chapters 1 and 2. This is part of the 'gap theory', which is an attempt to combine the Genesis account with the theory of evolution by saying there was a very long gap in time between the first two verses in Genesis.

Two other passages of scripture are used to support this teaching. The first is Luke 10:18, He (Jesus) said to them (the seventy sent out into the harvest-field), "I watched Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning”. However when studied in context, this does not refer to a fall of Satan before the beginning of time, but to the effect the mission of the seventy had on the powers of darkness, when they said, “Lord, in your name even the demons submit to us!” (Lk 10:17).

The second is Revelation 12:1-12, in which John sees a vision of the great red dragon, who is identified as, “that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan” (v9). Michael and his angels fought against Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, who was thrown down to earth and his angels with him. The timing of this dramatic event is indicated in verse 10, when the loud voice in heaven says: "now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down". This did not happen at the beginning of time, but at the cross, where Jesus brought salvation, demonstrated the power of the kingdom and defeated the enemy. Jesus made a similar statement shortly before his death, “Now is the judgement of the world; now the ruler of this world (Satan) be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth (on the cross), will draw all people to myself” (John 12:31).
It is questionable whether either the Luke 10, or the Revelation 12 passage describe a fall of Satan from heaven before the beginning of time, but more apparent that both describe the defeat of Satan achieved by the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus.

There are references to fallen angels in Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4, but no indication is given that Satan was associated with them or that he fell at the same time. Both these passages are more probably referring to the rather mysterious account of the time when the sons of God lusted after the daughters of men (Gen 6:1-4). Both Peter and Jude use this event as a warning about false teachers. There are no other passages in the Bible which give a clear and unambiguous teaching about the origin of Satan, or of a fall of Satan from a place of glory.

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