Is Revelation 20:1-6 really a recap?

[rwb]

Why would you think what “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared" is "simple?"

As for Paul "clearly referring to a one time event"--yes, of course--"but each one in his own order." Indeed, that is very "simple" and "clear." Why have you believed what evil men have turned into the convoluted doctrine of strong delusion?

As for the second coming of Christ--yes, "but each one in his own order." Does Christ knock "within" everyone at the same time, and come into them all and sup with them all--all at once in one mass future only event--of did He start doing so "within" in spirit (in the glory of the Father) at Pentecost, and has been doing so when each answers His know ever since--"but each one in his own order?"--Did you not comprehend Paul when he said "but" and then "clearly" stated the "simple" truth?

As for all of the dead in Christ" being "resurrected at the same time"--yes--for they died in their sins, whether before of after the cross--but even they all are with Him "today...in paradise"--"but each one in his own order." Which is that "that day and hour no one knows." And yes, you are thinking too "simple"--"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts", says the Lord.

As for teaching or suggesting that each believer is bodily resurrected and judged on at a time over the course of time is "false" and "scripture never teaches" it--I just showed you (again) that it does. But again, it would appear that it is just too simple for you where it is simple, and too high where it is on God's level rather than on your own.

Which is harsh--but you asked (again).

Christ comes to each one in his own order SPIRITUALLY as man hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed and spiritually enters into the Kingdom of God when they are born again. But the hour is coming in which ALL who are in the graves and saints who are still alive at His coming will be bodily resurrected and bodily caught up changed to meet the Lord in the air. The bodily resurrection and being caught up happens at the end of time, not throughout time with each in his own order.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let me re-state! I believe and have been arguing the part of the vision of Christ in heaven with "much people" is fulfilled. But the battle John envisions being waged is on-going still and won't be finished until the end of this age of time.

And your view is that the battle will end when Christ returns, right? Revelation 19:11-21 clearly portrays the future return of Christ from heaven when He will take vengeance on all unbelievers, as other scriptures like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 describe.

 

[WPM]

Are you saying that non-Christian societies have never experienced relative peace? Are you saying that nominally-Christian societies with mixed regenerate and unregenerate believers have not had relative peace? If so, you're ignoring the historical realities. God did give non-Born Again people the ability to do limited good and to embrace a limited peace.

Gen 20.6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her."

Cornelius was a good man even before he was Born Again...

Acts 10.1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

God certainly is able to establish peace on earth in limited ways even among people who are not Born Again. Some will eventually get Saved. Others will harden their hearts and utterly reject Salvation. But to say they are unable to do any good or live in peace merely because they are not Born Again is untrue. They need to accept Christ to be Saved, but they can do good without getting Saved. This may be a big difference in how we view things?

No. Premils have been misled into thinking their millennial age is some age of Aquarius, when in fact it possesses all the exact same bondage of corruption that our age has. What Premils portray is perfect peace, sinlessness, and a cessation of war. Where does Rev 20 teach this? Nowhere. It is fantasy.

 

[Marty fox]

Completely different words clearly. No being beheaded for rejecting the mark or reigning over the nations with a rod of iron. How is this "very same words"?

Ephesians 2
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Revelation 20
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Just like in Revelation 20:4, Paul shows that even while alive on the earth he is also spiritually raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In Rev 19 John is shown a vision of heaven after Christ's cross and resurrection. He hears a "great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God". Because Christ was victorious over sin and death all the faithful saints of old ascended to heaven with Christ, being the firstfruits of the Spirit. None could ascend to heaven before the advent of Christ giving His blood to make atonement for sin, and defeating death through His resurrection. Finally, the promised Messiah long waited for threw opened the gates of heaven bringing salvation to man. Satan has lost his power to hold people of faith in Christ in bondage to fear of death, because sin and death through sin have been defeated for them.

After hearing the joyous celebration of the saints in heaven, saying "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth"... "for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready". John is told to write "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

This is fulfillment of the vision John speaks of in Rev 12 where he is shown that through the birth of Christ, Satan was a defeated foe, because through Christ's victory over Satan, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ". Christ has come and with Him the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God that is within you had come to man, and all who are of faith, being born again through Him are now residents of heaven (spiritual body/living souls) after we physically die. Because the life we receive when we have been born again through the power of His Word and Spirit is ETERNAL LIFE, and cannot die.

After the verses depicting the joyous celebration in heaven the vision changes from heaven to what is taking place upon this earth as the rider on the white horse, who is Christ, with His armies of saints that continue to grow in number as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto the earth through the power of the Holy Spirit. The vision shows how God is smiting, or going to battle with/against the nations of this world, using His mighty sword that is the Word of God (gospel) proclaimed. His mighty army of saints who follow Him are all clothed in righteousness, having been made white by believing on the blood of the Lamb.

Finally John is shown how the great spiritual battle between the forces of Christ and the forces of the beast, symbolizing evil beings, and kings of the earth shall end with the beast and his army being cast into the eternal flames.

Revelation 19:19-21 (KJV) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Yes, John writes of the beginning of this age of time, symbolized a thousand years, with Christ victorious in heaven with His saints of Old, and then John ends by revealing how this great spiritual battle that has been on-going since the dawn of man shall end with Christ being victorious over all the earth for those who turn to Him for eternal life during this age of time, as the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being completed. Once the final/seventh trumpet begins to sound this time shall be no longer, or that there shall no longer be anymore delay, there shall be no more time given this earth because with His coming again this earth shall be burned up that the new heaven and new earth shall come.

Understood. Thanks for the explanation. The only part I would question is whether the thousand years represent the beginning and the end of the present age. But that's the whole point, isn't it? Otherwise, we're good! :)

 

[Davidpt]

In Rev 19 John is shown a vision of heaven after Christ's cross and resurrection. He hears a "great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God". Because Christ was victorious over sin and death all the faithful saints of old ascended to heaven with Christ, being the firstfruits of the Spirit. None could ascend to heaven before the advent of Christ giving His blood to make atonement for sin, and defeating death through His resurrection. Finally, the promised Messiah long waited for threw opened the gates of heaven bringing salvation to man. Satan has lost his power to hold people of faith in Christ in bondage to fear of death, because sin and death through sin have been defeated for them.

After hearing the joyous celebration of the saints in heaven, saying "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth"... "for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready". John is told to write "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

This is fulfillment of the vision John speaks of in Rev 12 where he is shown that through the birth of Christ, Satan was a defeated foe, because through Christ's victory over Satan, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ". Christ has come and with Him the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God that is within you had come to man, and all who are of faith, being born again through Him are now residents of heaven (spiritual body/living souls) after we physically die. Because the life we receive when we have been born again through the power of His Word and Spirit is ETERNAL LIFE, and cannot die.

After the verses depicting the joyous celebration in heaven the vision changes from heaven to what is taking place upon this earth as the rider on the white horse, who is Christ, with His armies of saints that continue to grow in number as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto the earth through the power of the Holy Spirit. The vision shows how God is smiting, or going to battle with/against the nations of this world, using His mighty sword that is the Word of God (gospel) proclaimed. His mighty army of saints who follow Him are all clothed in righteousness, having been made white by believing on the blood of the Lamb.

Finally John is shown how the great spiritual battle between the forces of Christ and the forces of the beast, symbolizing evil beings, and kings of the earth shall end with the beast and his army being cast into the eternal flames.

Revelation 19:19-21 (KJV) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Yes, John writes of the beginning of this age of time, symbolized a thousand years, with Christ victorious in heaven with His saints of Old, and then John ends by revealing how this great spiritual battle that has been on-going since the dawn of man shall end with Christ being victorious over all the earth for those who turn to Him for eternal life during this age of time, as the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is being completed. Once the final/seventh trumpet begins to sound this time shall be no longer, or that there shall no longer be anymore delay, there shall be no more time given this earth because with His coming again this earth shall be burned up that the new heaven and new earth shall come.

Be reasonable here. Quit trying to make the text agree with you when you aren't even making an effort to agree with the text. Nowhere in Revelation 19 is the time of the cross and resurrection in view. What's in view is the end of the little season meant in REvelation 6 and His 2nd coming. It is after that litte season, not to be confused with satan's little season BTW, not during the time of the cross and resurrection, that God avenges any of the saints.

Revelation 19:1 ¶And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 ¶And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

You can't seperate verse 1 from verse 2-6. All 6 of these verses are part of the same scene. Verse 1 is meaning after God's judgments and avenging have been enacted. And if you and some of these other Amils around here, such as @Marty fox can't even interpret something as plain as day simple as this correctly, we are to believe you all are interpreting everything else correctly? Granted, not all Amils are misinterpreting Ch 19, yet some are. And the ones that are should be the last persons to tell Premils they are not interpreting the millennium correctly when they are not qualified to make that judgment call, since they can't even interpret correctly something as plain as day simple as Revelation 19 is.

2 things I note about what you are doing here and the same applies to anyone else interpreting it in the same manner. You don't fully grasp how Scripture interprets Scripture works. And that you don't fully grasp how context works. Because if you did you would not remotely be interpreting some of Revelation 19 in the manner that you are. Revelation 19 is involving the literal end of this age. None of it is involving the time of the cross and resurrection 2K years ago.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Okay, thanks for clarifying what you meant.


I wasn't sure what you were saying and that's why I said I'm not sure what you mean. I figured you might not have been saying that you thought I believe that it was fulfilled.


Here's something to consider. We're talking about Christ's kingdom, right? Jesus Himself never said that His kingdom would be on earth with Him reigning over it personally and bodily on the earth. Instead, what He said about His kingdom is that it does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36).


I can't comprehend what you said here at all. You acknowledge that the kingdom impacts the earth, but not in the eschatological sense? That blows my mind. That comes across that you think the current kingdom is meaningless.


I don't believe in any reign on the earth in the way that you think it will be during the supposed future thousand years. But, I certainly believe that we are priests of Christ right now in His spiritual, heavenly kingdom (Revelation 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9) and we are on earth right now.


Of course. Do you deny that we are priests in the kingdom of Christ right now? Scripture says that we are.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.


Revelation 1:5-6 and 1 Peter 2:9 is scripture. I believe you are not accepting or not understanding what scriptures like those indicate.


Individuals confess faith in God, not nations. You already know that I strongly disagree with your beliefs about supposed Christian nations. There is no such thing. There are Christian individuals from all nations who together form "one body" of Christ (the church) and we are "a holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9) in a spiritual sense. There is only one Christian nation (the spiritual Israel of God).


I completely disagree with your understanding of the promises made to Abraham. Paul made it clear that they apply to all Christian individuals (Romans 3:26-29) and have nothing to do with nations.


I could not possibly disagree more. There is nothing in scripture matching what you describe. There are no Christian nations. There never have been and never will be. Christianity is based on individual, personal faith in Jesus Christ and is not a national thing.

Yes, clearly we disagree. Since you are so certain about your position there's no sense discussing it at length. I agree that the Church is called to be a Kingdom. I don't believe we're reigning in that Kingdom yet. I don't believe that Kingdom has come yet.

We are the people who comprise that Kingdom, but do not yet reign in that Kingdom. The heavenly Kingdom that presently impacts the earth through the Church is a limited impact, and not the promised eschatological reign. People get saved and Christians exercise the power to exorcise demons, but we are nevertheless persecuted, oppressed, and resisted.

I do believe God promised Abraham literal "nations." I don't know how you can reject the concept of "Christian nations" since they are everywhere present in our language and in our literature? But again, if you are adamant in your position, we'll have to try to disagree agreeably?

Where we might agree is on the fact the Kingdom comes "without observation." We cannot just watch the sky and prepare as if going by an itinerary. We prepare by serving an invisible God by our conscience, responding to God's word in our heart.

Those who believe Christ can come "at any moment," and think they are prepared purely by "imminent expectation" are fooling themselves. We prepare by living "in Christ" day to day, regardless of what day he will Return.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Were Adam and Eve on the earth for 1,000 years in the presence of Jesus in all His glory before rebelling? Obviously not. So, that isn't a valid comparison.

My point is that people can live with a Sin Nature and live in relative peace up until a particular event triggers them. God's word and purpose can thwart Satan's efforts to disrupt the world and bring it to an early demise.

So, people who are not Christian or who are nominally Christian and not Born Again can live in relative peace for a thousand years without all of the wars that would bring the world to immediate collapse. But when God releases Satan from his prison He will be allowing the trigger, or event, that spurs the non-Christian world into instant warfare and bring them to their just end.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. Premils have been misled into thinking their millennial age is some age of Aquarius, when in fact it possesses all the exact same bondage of corruption that our age has. What Premils portray is perfect peace, sinlessness, and a cessation of war. Where does Rev 20 teach this? Nowhere. It is fantasy.

No, it isn't fantasy. You're projecting your own sense of what I believe--not at all what I've been saying. So, you apparently just want to agree with your own false characterization of what I believe. How convenient!

I never mentioned an Age of Aquarius. I don't believe that the "same bondage of corruption," or the "Sin Nature," requires that the world be at constant war, either in this age or in the Millennial Age. It hasn't been true in history, so I'm not sure why you're claiming that?

 

[ScottA]

Christ comes to each one in his own order SPIRITUALLY as man hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed and spiritually enters into the Kingdom of God when they are born again. But the hour is coming in which ALL who are in the graves and saints who are still alive at His coming will be bodily resurrected and bodily caught up changed to meet the Lord in the air. The bodily resurrection and being caught up happens at the end of time, not throughout time with each in his own order.

Well you were off to a good start there--because Jesus' "coming in the glory of the Father"--is SPIRITUAL, as "God is spirit."

But then you veer off the path of truth to claim that "His coming will be bodily"--which is not true by the reconciliation of all scripture.

But I will tell you-- Just as Paul and all who are Christ's "were" crucified with Him, so "were" all who were to be His before salvation came, "were" also raised up "with" Him. In truth, according to God's occurring--not being of this world--all who are His before or after the cross "were" both crucified and raised up with Him--even "before the foundation of the world."

But those who insist upon thinking as men of this world, by their own measure--without "the renewing of your mind"--will have to wait for their own times to be fulfilled to even understand.

@Spiritual Israelite

 

[ScottA]

And your view is that the battle will end when Christ returns, right? Revelation 19:11-21 clearly portrays the future return of Christ from heaven when He will take vengeance on all unbelievers, as other scriptures like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 describe.

It would appear that you are not thinking what you are saying through. Just how do you envision Christ coming in "the future" and taking "vengeance on all unbelievers" that are already dead and gone in the past?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well you were off to a good start there--because Jesus' "coming in the glory of the Father"--is SPIRITUAL, as "God is spirit."

But then you veer off the path of truth to claim that "His coming will be bodily"--which is not true by the reconciliation of all scripture.

But I will tell you-- Just as Paul and all who are Christ's "were" crucified with Him, so "were" all who were to be His before salvation came, "were" also raised up "with" Him. In truth, according to God's occurring--not being of this world--all who are His before or after the cross "were" both crucified and raised up with Him--even "before the foundation of the world."

But those who insist upon thinking as men of this world, by their own measure--without "the renewing of your mind"--will have to wait for their own times to be fulfilled to even understand.

@Spiritual Israelite

More foolishness from you, as usual. You have no spiritual discernment whatsoever. Literally none. To deny His bodily second coming is heresy! You need to repent of your hyper-spiritualization of physical realities!

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

The manner in which He ascended to heaven was visibly and bodily. He will come from heaven in like manner, visibly and bodily. You live in your own world where nothing is real, nothing is physical. You come across like you're some kind of New Age spiritual guru.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It would appear that you are not thinking what you are saying through. Just how do you envision Christ coming in "the future" and taking "vengeance on all unbelievers" that are already dead and gone in the past?

It would appear that you are never thinking through what you are saying. Ever. Every post of yours is complete foolishness. He will be physically destroying all living unbelievers when He comes. That is clearly taught in other passages as well like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. After that, according to Matthew 25:31-46, will be when He judges all people and gives out eternal rewards and sentences. He will take vengeance on those who were dead by resurrecting them, having them stand before Him to give an account of themselves and then casting them into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, clearly we disagree. Since you are so certain about your position there's no sense discussing it at length. I agree that the Church is called to be a Kingdom. I don't believe we're reigning in that Kingdom yet. I don't believe that Kingdom has come yet.

So, Jesus is not your King and you are not in His kingdom right now? That would mean you haven't been rescued from the dominion of spiritual darkness.

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

We are the people who comprise that Kingdom, but do not yet reign in that Kingdom.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Just so you know.

The heavenly Kingdom that presently impacts the earth through the Church is a limited impact, and not the promised eschatological reign. People get saved and Christians exercise the power to exorcise demons, but we are nevertheless persecuted, oppressed, and resisted.

So, you think physical persecution takes away from our spiritual authority?

I do believe God promised Abraham literal "nations."

He did not. That would be meaningless. He promised Abraham a "heavenly country" and a city whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

I don't know how you can reject the concept of "Christian nations" since they are everywhere present in our language and in our literature?

This is your problem. Your doctrine is not based on scripture. It's based on "our language" and "our literature".

But again, if you are adamant in your position, we'll have to try to disagree agreeably?

We can do that.

Where we might agree is on the fact the Kingdom comes "without observation."

It CAME without observation long ago already. We apparently do not agree about that. I'm not sure what you think it means, but you have made it clear that you don't think we're in His kingdom yet.

We cannot just watch the sky and prepare as if going by an itinerary. We prepare by serving an invisible God by our conscience, responding to God's word in our heart.

But, in your view, when it does come in the future it will be by observation, so your view does contradict what Jesus said about His kingdom not coming with observation. It's a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. It's not of this world, it's of heaven (John 18:36).

Those who believe Christ can come "at any moment," and think they are prepared purely by "imminent expectation" are fooling themselves. We prepare by living "in Christ" day to day, regardless of what day he will Return.

That is what Jesus Himself said we should be doing until His return (Matthew 24:42-51), but that doesn't really have anything to do with His kingdom not coming with observation.

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[rwb]

Be reasonable here. Quit trying to make the text agree with you when you aren't even making an effort to agree with the text. Nowhere in Revelation 19 is the time of the cross and resurrection in view.

Then tell me how John can hear "a great voice of much people in heaven" if not after the cross and resurrection of Christ? Why are they saying "Alleluia; salvation, and glory, and honor, and power. unto the Lord our God"? How can there be much people in heaven BEFORE Christ made atonement for sin and defeated death?

Revelation 19:1 (KJV) And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

What's in view is the end of the little season meant in REvelation 6 and His 2nd coming.

Are you assuming the little season in Rev 6 is the like the little season Satan is given after the thousand years of time expires? Wouldn't you agree Rev 6:9-11 is depicting Old Covenant faithful saints who died before the advent of Christ?

When Christ was born, salvation had come to earth. But they could not ascend to heaven a spiritual body, living souls until Christ came to make atonement for sin and defeat death. So, when Christ was born these Old Covenant saints were symbolically under the blood of Christ (under the altar), given white robes, symbolically showing they died in righteousness, and told they must wait for a little season, which would be from the time Christ was born until He went to the cross and resurrected from the grave. That's when the fellowservants (beginning of Christianity) and their brethren (Christ) should be killed as they should be fulfilled.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

We see these captives of the grave ascending with Christ to heaven after His resurrection. Before ascending to heaven, Christ first descended down to the place the Old Covenant captives were being held, the grave, called of Old the bosom of Abraham. Christ through His Spirit after His resurrection led these OC captives with Him to heaven. That's why John only sees much people but not yet all the people who were to come in heaven, praising and giving glory to God.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

You can't seperate verse 1 from verse 2-6. All 6 of these verses are part of the same scene. Verse 1 is meaning after God's judgments and avenging have been enacted. And if you and some of these other Amils around here, such as @Marty fox can't even interpret something as plain as day simple as this correctly, we are to believe you all are interpreting everything else correctly? Granted, not all Amils are misinterpreting Ch 19, yet some are. And the ones that are should be the last persons to tell Premils they are not interpreting the millennium correctly when they are not qualified to make that judgment call, since they can't even interpret correctly something as plain as day simple as Revelation 19 is.

You're assuming, not proving. Who/what do you think the "great whore" represents?

Revelation 19:2 (KJV) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

The great whore who according to Rev 17 committed fornication with the kings of the earth and made the inhabitants of the earth drunk with the wine of her fornication. She sits upon the scarlet-colored beast. Who/what fits this description in the New Covenant age? She is MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Is this not a picture of the enemy of God and the Church that is being judged by the blood of Christ, and as time marches on, judged by the blood of Christ's servants?

Is this not spiritually a depiction of the Old Covenant Congregation/Church of Old that had given themselves over to the great red dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world, judged, but not yet utterly destroyed? The utter destruction will not be until the thousand years expire, and Satan is set free for a little season and then cast alive into the lake of fire, and the remnant of his seed slain by sword that is the Word of God, Christ through His gospel.

Revelation 19:19-21 (KJV) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[rwb]

Well you were off to a good start there--because Jesus' "coming in the glory of the Father"--is SPIRITUAL, as "God is spirit."

But then you veer off the path of truth to claim that "His coming will be bodily"--which is not true by the reconciliation of all scripture.

But I will tell you-- Just as Paul and all who are Christ's "were" crucified with Him, so "were" all who were to be His before salvation came, "were" also raised up "with" Him. In truth, according to God's occurring--not being of this world--all who are His before or after the cross "were" both crucified and raised up with Him--even "before the foundation of the world."

But those who insist upon thinking as men of this world, by their own measure--without "the renewing of your mind"--will have to wait for their own times to be fulfilled to even understand.

@Spiritual Israelite

In time believers are raised up with Christ SPIRITUALLY because the Kingdom of God NOW is a spiritual and not a physical kingdom. But Christ will come again in the same manner He departed, clothed in human, though immortal, flesh. And we who are now spiritually with Him in the Kingdom of God in heaven, when He comes again, we will be with Him resurrected from mortal body to immortal body. Why would that be if the new heaven and new earth will not be inhabited by humans with body + breath of life, to once again be complete human beings no longer under the bondage of physical death but as we were created in the beginning?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then tell me how John can hear "a great voice of much people in heaven" if not after the cross and resurrection of Christ? Why are they saying "Alleluia; salvation, and glory, and honor, and power. unto the Lord our God"? How can there be much people in heaven BEFORE Christ made atonement for sin and defeated death?

Revelation 19:1 (KJV) And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

They are saying that in relation to the destruction of the great harlot Babylon.

Revelation 19:1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.” 3 Again they said, “Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!”

Do you think Babylon was already destroyed after the death and resurrection of Christ?

Are you assuming the little season in Rev 6 is the like the little season Satan is given after the thousand years of time expires? Wouldn't you agree Rev 6:9-11 is depicting Old Covenant faithful saints who died before the advent of Christ?

Why would that be the case? It would be all faithful saints who had died up until the time of the fifth seal event. Do you think the fifth seal event occurred before the advent of Christ?

I believe the little season of Revelation 6:11 is the same as Satan's little season. I see the fifth seal as being parallel to the fifth trumpet and we can see that the bottomless pit is opened at the sound of the fifth trumpet. So, that is when Satan will be loosed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So, Jesus is not your King and you are not in His kingdom right now? That would mean you haven't been rescued from the dominion of spiritual darkness.

No, I agree we've been rescued *legally.* Biblically, we only have a "downpayment" on our inheritance presently. We do not have the property yet--not until the full amount has been recorded with the appropriate "government" authority.

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

See above. We're not there yet.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Just so you know.

That's why I'm still explaining--not so much "arguing" at this point.

So, you think physical persecution takes away from our spiritual authority?

No, physical persecution means we do not reign in the Kingdom yet. If we reigned presently, our enemies would already be under our feet. As yet, they are not yet crushed under our feet. Legally they've lost. But in reality, they're still active and opposing us, building up God's case against them for eternal judgment.

He did not. That would be meaningless. He promised Abraham a "heavenly country" and a city whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham....

I disagree. The Bible records that God promised Abraham literal "nations."

Gen 17.3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.

I think you define "nations" differently than I do, or even than the Dictionaries do? But don't tell me, "He did not." It is right there in Gen 17.3! If you want to deny what is right there in black and white you're going to have to explain that, or at least explain why you redefine "nations" differently than the rest of us do?

Using metaphors for the international Church like "Body of Christ" or "Church" do not cancel out the literal meaning of the words "nations," as applied to populations with governments and borders! Just because you wish to deny the existence of "Christian nations," which all of our literature admits, does not mean you get to delete information that does not fit your theology!

The fact is, regardless of how thoroughly Christian a nation is, they have been called a "Christian nation" when that nation adopted some kind of Christian constitution and the vast majority of the citizens proclaimed Christianity as their favored religion. Ignoring this does not make it go away. Your favored "biblical definition" still does not make it meaningless!

This is your problem. Your doctrine is not based on scripture. It's based on "our language" and "our literature".

And your problem is that you use your own favored biblical interpretations to deny language, literature, and reality.

We can do that.

Thank you. Your stock goes up. Many cannot check their pride at the debate forum. We can indeed love and respect one another even with different points of view. It's a measure of maturity.

It CAME without observation long ago already. We apparently do not agree about that. I'm not sure what you think it means, but you have made it clear that you don't think we're in His kingdom yet.

Yes, Jesus was speaking of the process of the Kingdom coming--not as if it had already come, as in a fiat decree. The Kingdom was in the process of coming, as in the stages leading up to its realization.

Jesus plainly said that the Kingdom is "near," which means that his presence among his people did not mean his Kingdom had yet come. But his presence among them did mean that the Kingdom was in the process of coming, even though it had plainly not yet arrived.

The necessity of his death made this reality all the more plain, since his disciples recognized that when he died the Kingdom had not yet come. The entire NT teaches that the Kingdom, in order to come, will be an eschatological coming, and not a "realized coming."

Paul, in fact, warned the Thessalonian church in 2 Thes 2 not to be fooled by a premature proclamation of the Kingdom *now.* The Antichrist must precede the coming of Christ with his Kingdom to destroy the Antichrist.

Jesus warned about any premature "False Christs" with the design of making people think they already have full authority on earth. If they try to exercise such authority they will be either imprisoned or killed by ungodly, antiChristian authorities that God still allows to exist. Such a pagan government did exist in the form of the Roman Empire when Paul wrote his letters.

But, in your view, when it does come in the future it will be by observation, so your view does contradict what Jesus said about His kingdom not coming with observation. It's a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly one. It's not of this world, it's of heaven (John 18:36).

No, Jesus said the Kingdom comes at an unknown day and hour. There is no ability to "wait for it" visually. When watchmen stood high up on city walls watching for invaders, they could be vigilant visually. But in the case of Christ's return, there is only one way to prepare for that unknown day--we must live for Christ today!

That is what Jesus Himself said we should be doing until His return (Matthew 24:42-51), but that doesn't really have anything to do with His kingdom not coming with observation.

Jesus said we are to "watch" for his return--but not as if we can prepare in a visual sense, like a watchman preparing for battle. We prepare spiritually by walking with Christ.

 

[rwb]

They are saying that in relation to the destruction of the great harlot Babylon.

Who/what does Babylon symbolize?