Not peculiar people as such

[2bme]

Those terrific words.... If I decided for some reason to re-believe in Jesus.... It's like... Wow!

There has to be some instance in your life where you have a run in with the Holy Spirit. And then... You really will believe in Jesus! Not because anything was taught to you... But because of that something that was experienced.

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? - Acts 19:1-2

If I had an actual running with the holy spirit to the degree of absolute certainty, I wouldn't need to believe. Because I'd actually know.

 

[ScottA]

I haven't been able to notice any particular difference between a person who is determined to become morally disciplined as a Christian, or morally disciplined as a non-Christian. Other than that, the only thing that is unique about the Christian is the claim that their transformation was effected due to their faith in Jesus. I think it was a Christian who coined the phrase how Atheists are more disciplined than Christian's (Although they say it doesn't save the Atheist ultimately)

(Ultimately for the will of God that no-one may boast) But this isn't the unsettling part of the equation. It's the reality that it's rare to find a Christian who is actually living out a disciplined lifestyle of what they profess to be the truth. This is not just about our general struggles of body, mind and feelings that people can all agree on. It's something the Christian has internalized as being morally victorious, but in practice proves outwardly something is very wrong with what they actually believe to be true. It's as if the life of sin they believe has been conquered can continue unrecognised long after the recognition has sunk in of the penalty of those who live in opposition of God.

For me personally It is frightening to interact with them while they have convinced themselves of a harmony that is obviously false. That type of self blindness compared to how they claim to be in their faith journey ends up becoming a unmetered laser like focus to target everyone around them for the sole purpose of saving. Even if that means they need to hurt people to get them to believe.

It's not "self blindness", but acceptance of the reality that we are all quite despicable--but God loves us and has better plans for us anyway. That acceptance is akin to confession and repentance, you see.

If that makes us all like a bunch of reformed pirates--then, if nothing else--even if we can't help ourselves and still act like the scouderalls we always were--at least seeing we all have that in common...well, it kinda helps. Such as we are, we have each other...kinda.

 

[2bme]

It’s better to ask than guess. See below.



I don’t have the ability to convert you (or anyone else), and wouldn’t if I did.



I’m here primarily to seek relief from the stress that comes from my work with neglected, abused, and at risk children. That will continue, at least for a little while, regardless of whether or not you decide to re-believe in Jesus.

What was your purpose in making false assertions about me in post #5?

How do I matter so much to you on this forum? You're usually the first person to post a reply on all my threads, and you show a pattern of negating whatever my opinions are. So I don't know what that's all about.

 

[Matthias]

How do I matter so much to you on this forum?

You’re neither more important nor less important to me than anyone else on the forum is. Everyone is important to me. You matter because you are a fellow human being, created in God’s image.

You're usually the first person to post a reply on all my threads, and you show a pattern of negating whatever my opinions are. So I don't know what that's all about.

For quite a while you and I were just about the only ones posting in this section. (And neither one of us is allowed to post in any of the “Christians Only” forums.)

You still haven’t answered my question regarding your purpose in post #5.

 

[rockytopva]

If I had an actual running with the holy spirit to the degree of absolute certainty, I wouldn't need to believe. Because I'd actually know.

The need for a divine run-in....

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. - Acts 9:1-2

There was only one way for Saul (later named Paul) to have believed on Jesus... The need for a divine encounter...

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. - Acts 9

Without that encounter I do not believe Paul would have ever believed. There are times we humans need a little encouragement!

 

[rockytopva]

And for the purpose of this thread I started a new one... A divine encounter of the old Methodist variety...

Salvation Experienced True Methodist

George Clark Ranking was born in 1849 in East Tennessee and became a preacher for the Methodist Episcopal Church, South (which would later form into the UMC). Mr. Rankin would move and spend the rest of his years in Dallas, Texas. A good life! Here are some excerpts from his book...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[2bme]

It's not "self blindness", but acceptance of the reality that we are all quite despicable--but God loves us and has better plans for us anyway. That acceptance is akin to confession and repentance, you see.

If that makes us all like a bunch of reformed pirates--then, if nothing else--even if we can't help ourselves and still act like the scouderalls we always were--at least seeing we all have that in common...well, it kinda helps. Such as we are, we have each other...kinda.

Yeah...but no. That's a popular position I've noticed Christian's take to side-step any legitimate complaint about them. I think I understand why they say "We are just broken people" They have outsourced their broken, problematic, harmful behaviour to Jesus before they stop to think about what they've just done. So they're not giving themselves the chance to accept their mistakes naturally with the people they may have wronged.

 

[2bme]

The need for a divine run-in....

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. - Acts 9:1-2

There was only one way for Saul (later named Paul) to have believed on Jesus... The need for a divine encounter...

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. - Acts 9

Without that encounter I do not believe Paul would have ever believed. There are times we humans need a little encouragement!

We love Paul don't we.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are you my sister Rebecca? I say that because her middle name is Jane and she is a Aunty, and she does live in Australia.

No mate...not Rebecca....just a keen Bible student who loves to share what I have learned over many decades.

 

[soberxp]

Then God would be working against his own plan for salvation. But that's my opinion.

Do you think that God could understand Satan's way of thinking, because God is good while Satan is evil?

 

[ScottA]

Yeah...but no. That's a popular position I've noticed Christian's take to side-step any legitimate complaint about them. I think I understand why they say "We are just broken people" They have outsourced their broken, problematic, harmful behaviour to Jesus before they stop to think about what they've just done. So they're not giving themselves the chance to accept their mistakes naturally with the people they may have wronged.

No, you're wrong. You're just speculating and judging people, one of the lowest forms of human behavior.

To the contrary, some of us know exactly what the circumstances are--have been in the presence of God, and are here to help--even help you. But we are not here to entertain your low-hanging, low ball imaginations and accusations.

You think your perspective is an advantage point? It's not. From where you are you have no vantage point--that's the point. God did that. Which should leave a person with the least amount of good character asking sincere questions. All others squirm and do what you're doing.

But don't worry what you're experiencing won't last very long.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@2bme .....I too wondered about that statement....
“If I decided for some reason to re-believe in Jesus”....because I’d like to know what you believed about Jesus in the first instance, and why you decided to abandon what you once believed?

I can see that you are a “seeker”.....something that is vital, because if you have the right heart motivation, you will “find” what your heart is looking for....God will see to it. (John 6:44; 65)

I was raised in Christendom and in my late teens and early twenties, I abandoned the “church” system in search of the Creator I knew was out there somewhere, but whom I never found in “church” or in the rest of Christendom for that matter. After some investigation in other denominations, I found them to be basically all the same, just under different banners and with no end of disagreements and blatant hypocrisy. Nothing in me saw that system as “Christianity”....nothing rang true....all my questions remained unanswered. I cannot do blind faith.

Losing my father at a young age was the catalyst for me to find the God of the Bible, and ask my questions without being made to feel like I was doing something wrong. There was so much I wanted to know, but the church had no answers....so I explored other faiths, non-Christian faiths, and found them all steeped in idolatry or a mysticism that made me feel uneasy.

I wanted to know God as the Bible presented him, and I wanted to find his true worshippers who taught only the Bible, not the flawed doctrines I was raised with in the fragmented and confused church system. If God’s spirit is so powerful it should promote unity.....that was entirely missing.

I turned to evolution to answer my questions, thinking that perhaps God used evolution in creation, but the more I studied it, the more I saw everything it presented was backed up by nothing but supposition and suggestion, just like the church did. There was no solid evidence for anything....but the one thing it did teach me about, was the evidence of design in nature. Logic told me that where there is design, there must be a designer.....a Creator with wisdom and power beyond human comprehension.....but where would I find this Creator? As time passed, I despaired of ever coming to know him, not just as a “Character” I read about in the Bible, but on a personal level, as the Father Jesus presented him to be.

Then one day, there was a knock on my door...and He found me. It changed forever the way I viewed who he was, because someone who had also had a similar experience, taught me how to study the Bible....not church theology.

Bible study was an amazing experience, opening up answers to my many questions...solid Bible based answers and I have never looked back. The more I learned, the more I wanted to know, and the answers just kept coming until I had a “big picture” where all the pieces fit......with no contradictions and with others who were just like me....hungry for the knowledge that changes the way we view God and his Christ.

No ‘hocus pokus’....no speaking in tongues, no supernatural experiences.....just solid Bible truth that exposes the lies and hypocrisy....it was life changing.
Jesus said “you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free”....I know what that means now.

 

[2bme]

Do you think that God could understand Satan's way of thinking, because God is good while Satan is evil?

All I can say about Satan is that Christian's understand his utility very differently than the Jewish people of old did.

 

[2bme]

No, you're wrong. You're just speculating and judging people, one of the lowest forms of human behavior.

To the contrary, some of us know exactly what the circumstances are--have been in the presence of God, and are here to help--even help you. But we are not here to entertain your low-hanging, low ball imaginations and accusations.

You think your perspective is an advantage point? It's not. From where you are you have no vantage point--that's the point. God did that. Which should leave a person with the least amount of good character asking sincere questions. All others squirm and do what you're doing.

But don't worry what you're experiencing won't last very long.

Who's squirming? Wow what a revelation of impact. Who here is cringing out over what I'm saying. It's okay because a lot of what I've said has become cringe to me. Which is the most useful tool I have in the hope I could say something that might hit home.

 

[ScottA]

Who's squirming? Wow what a revelation of impact. Who here is cringing out over what I'm saying. It's okay because a lot of what I've said has become cringe to me. Which is the most useful tool I have in the hope I could say something that might hit home.

Yeah, no trophy for barking on the midway.

 

[2bme]

Yeah, no trophy for barking on the midway.

What's a midway?

 

[ScottA]

What's a midway?

The midway of a carnival.

 

[2bme]

The midway of a carnival.

So is this forum the midway?

 

[2bme]

@2bme .....I too wondered about that statement....
“If I decided for some reason to re-believe in Jesus”....because I’d like to know what you believed about Jesus in the first instance, and why you decided to abandon what you once believed?

I can see that you are a “seeker”.....something that is vital, because if you have the right heart motivation, you will “find” what your heart is looking for....God will see to it. (John 6:44; 65)

I was raised in Christendom and in my late teens and early twenties, I abandoned the “church” system in search of the Creator I knew was out there somewhere, but whom I never found in “church” or in the rest of Christendom for that matter. After some investigation in other denominations, I found them to be basically all the same, just under different banners and with no end of disagreements and blatant hypocrisy. Nothing in me saw that system as “Christianity”....nothing rang true....all my questions remained unanswered. I cannot do blind faith.

Losing my father at a young age was the catalyst for me to find the God of the Bible, and ask my questions without being made to feel like I was doing something wrong. There was so much I wanted to know, but the church had no answers....so I explored other faiths, non-Christian faiths, and found them all steeped in idolatry or a mysticism that made me feel uneasy.

I wanted to know God as the Bible presented him, and I wanted to find his true worshippers who taught only the Bible, not the flawed doctrines I was raised with in the fragmented and confused church system. If God’s spirit is so powerful it should promote unity.....that was entirely missing.

I turned to evolution to answer my questions, thinking that perhaps God used evolution in creation, but the more I studied it, the more I saw everything it presented was backed up by nothing but supposition and suggestion, just like the church did. There was no solid evidence for anything....but the one thing it did teach me about, was the evidence of design in nature. Logic told me that where there is design, there must be a designer.....a Creator with wisdom and power beyond human comprehension.....but where would I find this Creator? As time passed, I despaired of ever coming to know him, not just as a “Character” I read about in the Bible, but on a personal level, as the Father Jesus presented him to be.

Then one day, there was a knock on my door...and He found me. It changed forever the way I viewed who he was, because someone who had also had a similar experience, taught me how to study the Bible....not church theology.

Bible study was an amazing experience, opening up answers to my many questions...solid Bible based answers and I have never looked back. The more I learned, the more I wanted to know, and the answers just kept coming until I had a “big picture” where all the pieces fit......with no contradictions and with others who were just like me....hungry for the knowledge that changes the way we view God and his Christ.

No ‘hocus pokus’....no speaking in tongues, no supernatural experiences.....just solid Bible truth that exposes the lies and hypocrisy....it was life changing.
Jesus said “you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free”....I know what that means now.

You say that science didn't offer you any certainty about God, which I also understand that it doesn't. But science isn't something you can use for that. Although It's a useful tool for understanding the inner workings of nature. So don't completely ride the scientific method off just because it can't answer certain questions like God or death or the meaning of life. Not sure if you're interested in why I left Christianity, but I wasn't happy while I believed in Jesus, and I resented having to be something I knew wasn't me when I went to church.

 

[2bme]

You know I'm going to church tomorrow. For real I am... I've been going to this church for months and months... Oh how you might be thinking... Huh? Wha? After everything you've said to us about leaving your faith you are saying this now... It's not what you think. I'm only going there because it's apart of my street life routine. Now I don't know if any of those Christian's actually are members of this forum, and I wouldn't get overtly concerned if any of those members did.

I don't just go on Sunday, but throughout the week when they're open. I've nothing scathing to say about them, although some of my recent threads have been influenced by my direct involvement with this church and it's members. I have to say that there's no reason they couldn't be just as charitable without their faith attached, and there is nothing that proves to me that Jesus is actually present in the degree they claim. That's because as nice a they can be humanly it's not anything special from what any other person in history could achieve in that natural zone we call humanity.