GENESIS CREATION CHALLENGE: Can you teach it without changing words and contradicting yourself? Doubtful.

[Exegesis]

The various ways in which the Genesis Creation Account is currently being taught have some very big problems. These problems are well documented for those that are unfamiliar with them. Basically, Genesis one through three teachings contradict themselves. To make matters worse, most teachings take away and add unto the sacred text to force it to fit into some preconceived false narrative.

Christians should know better. Taking away and adding to the Word of God is a huge no-no. In the eyes of the non-believer, teaching Genesis in a contradictory manner just reinforces the stereotype that Christians are hopelessly ignorant. Countless discussions, videos, websites, etc. have been dedicated to this topic, proving that not a single person on this planet has been able to teach Genesis one through three without breaking the basic rules of exegesis... that is until now.

I am offering a challenge to anyone reading this to present your verse-by-verse commentary and prove to the world that you are not lying to them by teaching the Genesis Creation Account without altering words, without contradicting yourself, and most important of all, keeping it all Biblical.

Basic Rules:

• No paraphrasing, e.g., “Genesis 2 is a retelling of Genesis 1”
• Use a verse-by-verse commentary to prove your work, similar to the example I will post
• Use any translation you want (mixing is OK)
• Do not take away, add, or change words and meanings
• The words ‘day’ and ‘surely die’ are to be interpreted literally
  • i.e., ‘day’ means 24hrs or less
  • i.e., ‘surely die’ means actual death, not ‘spiritual death’ or ‘began to age’
• Your interpretation must not contradict either the Old Testament or the New Testament.

I will submit my entry in the next post.

 

[Exegesis]

My Submission to the Challenge:

Genesis 2:4 (KJV) - These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

Genesis 2:4 Commentary:
The verse marks the beginning of a series of ‘recap’ verses of Genesis 1, with additional details being added. The focus here is on the Third Day, when the Heavens and Earth were completed and ready for its first form of life. Day means day, not 'six days'.

Genesis 2:5 (New Living Translation) - Neither wild plants nor grains were growing on the earth. For the LORD God had not yet sent rain to water the earth, and there were no people to cultivate the soil.

Genesis 2:5 Commentary:
We have confirmation that Genesis 2:4 is indeed focusing on the Third Day. Moreover, we are at the precise moment in time when no plants, and therefore no life, existed.

What was the first form of life created on the Third Day?

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 Commentary:
As we can clearly see, we have an issue. Christians are told that Man was originally created on the Sixth Day. According to the Bible however, Man was originally created on the Third Day. We have exposed the first big lie that Christians teach. For clarity, I will refer to this being as the ‘First Adam’. Note that Jesus is the ‘Last Adam’ who rose on the Third Day. Perfect! Scripture is aligned with Scripture.

What was the next form of life created on the Third Day? Plants:

Genesis 2:8 - And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Genesis 2:8 Commentary:
According to the verse, Man was already formed before plants, obviously. Interestingly, God started with a garden first, rather than filling the entire planet with plant life. This makes sense from a geo-engineering perspective. Start small, then work your way up.

Genesis 2:9 - And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:9 Commentary:
God begins to make Trees. They are pleasing to the eye and good for food. We are obviously still on the Third Day.

Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2:17 Commentary:
Continuing within the Third Day, God gives a strict command to the First Adam to not partake of the Forbidden Fruit or else he will die on that very day. Note that there is nothing here to suggest that the First Adam would ‘die spiritually’ or ‘begin to die’ or ‘be separated from God’, etc. Those are false Church dogmas inserted into the text.

Now, since no Animals have been created yet, the First Adam is truly all alone. No problem, God has a solution:

Genesis 2:18 - And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:18 Commentary:
The verse above makes it clear that the First Adam was alone because no animals were created yet.

Genesis 2:19 (New Heart English Bible) - And out of the ground God formed every tame animal, and every wild animal, and every flying creature of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

Genesis 2:19 Commentary:
The timeline jumps to the Fifth Day (creation of flying creatures) and then to the Sixth Day (creation of tame and wild animals). Note that something very important just occurred. A Law was made. Did you catch it? Whenever God creates a living being, Adam must name it. Moreover, whatever Adam ‘calls’ the newly formed being, that was its name.

Genesis 2:22 - And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Genesis 2:22 Commentary:
Because the animals were not sufficient help, God creates a new being called ‘Ishshah’. Most Bibles translate this word as ‘Woman’. Note that this is not Eve! Nowhere does the name Eve show up until after the Fall. <- Pay attention!

Now, according to the Law we just went over, Adam must now name this newly created being:

Genesis 2:23 (KJV) - And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Genesis 2:23 Commentary:
Adam ‘calls’ the new being ‘Ishshah’, thus that was her name. Again, it was not Eve. Note that Ishshah was named by the method by which she was created. This is a common theme in the Bible. Jacob was the 'heal grabber' etc. Ishshah was taken from Ish. This a huge clue that this is not Eve.

Eve was created by a different method, and thus as we will soon see, was consequently named per said method.

And so it was, when the First Adam, along with his Wife Ishshah, partook of the Forbidden Fruit, they died on that very day. Not only did they die the First Death, but they also died the Second Death. Die+Die = Twice Dead.

Note that the Second Death came once the man was 'cast out' in Genesis 3:24. It is a picture of begin cast out of Heaven and into the Lake of Fire and out into the physical world.

Genesis 3:6 (KJV) - And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Genesis 3:6 Commentary:
The phrase ‘surely die’ means ‘dying ye shall die’ or ‘dying the First Death, ye shall die the Second Death’ (twice dead). And that is precisely what happened, all within the Sixth Day. The couple became dust of the ground.

Here is a study on what the phrase ‘surely die’ means:

Ministry Magazine | Dying You Shall Die: The meaning of Genesis 2:17

Teaching that the couple ‘spiritually died’ or that the day they died was ‘a thousand years’ is completely unscriptural. This is fact, not opinion.

And finally, Scripture gives us a foreshadow of the Resurrection of Damnation:

Genesis 3:7 (KJV) - And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Genesis 3:7 Commentary:
Because the couple became dust of the ground, God had to resurrect them. Note that this was not the Resurrection of Glory, but rather the Resurrection of Damnation. Their eyes were opened because the dead are asleep and must be awakened. Did God lie? Of course not. Did the Word of God contradict? No. They were 'naked' because they were not clothed with a physical body yet.

God then proceeded to recreate and 'clothe' the couple with a physical body on the Sixth Day as per Genesis 1:27:

Genesis 1:27 (KJV) - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:27 Commentary:
As mentioned previously, a new method of creation requires a new name:

Genesis 3:20 - And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Genesis 3:20 Commentary:
Again, according to the Law, every time God creates something new, Adam must name it. Eve is now given reproductive organs, hence 'mother of all living'. Ishshah did not have any reproductive organs. Neither did the First Adam. Sex in a Heavenly environment is not Biblical. This is common sense. Christians are being blasphemous for teaching that God wanted the couple to have sex in the Garden of Eden. Having sex while eating of the Tree of Life is literally a demonic teaching.

Ishshah was created from a rib. Eve was created from the Forbidden Fruit. Two different methods of creation created two different women. Did Adam name the same wife twice? Obviously not! That is another absurd teaching from the Christian community.

And of course, for obvious reasons, the couple had to be given a new ‘covering’ of skin and flesh as part of the Resurrection process:

Job 10:11 - Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.

No, God did not ‘kill an animal’ and dress them like the Flintstones. That is more church dogma and lies.

And there we have it. This marks first time anyone has taught Genesis without contradicting or changing words to fit a false narrative.

Now it's your turn.

 

[Exegesis]

Something important that is often overlooked about the Creation Account is that the world before the Fall was a non physical 'ethereal' like realm. It was not the physical world we live in now. This is what so many get wrong.

When the First Adam was created on the Third Day, he was created as spirit and soul only. This is also how the dead are resurrected. They are not raised with physical bodies. That comes later.

The purpose of the two trees in the Garden of Eden was to basically choose what type of physical body to have:

• Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil: The corrupt body we have now
• Tree of Life: The glorified body

Obviously, the couple chose to be clothed with an earthly tabernacle:

2 Corinthians 5:1 - For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Understanding what happened to the First Adam and Ishshah is key to understanding the intricate details of how both Resurrections work.

 

[Exegesis]

As we can clearly see, we have an issue. Christians are told that Man was originally created on the Sixth Day. According to the Bible however, Man was originally created on the Third Day. We have exposed the first big lie that Christians teach.

This is not a new concept. Christians have been discussing this for ages:

Unfortunately, the lies the Church has taught for so many years are too ingrained in the imagination of the public to be easily corrected.

 

[Exegesis]

If you are a non-Christian reading this thread and wondering why no one has stood up to the challenge so far, the answer is simple. These “Christians”, who love to say things like “Do not be deceived!” all day long (as if they aren’t), are the ones who are actually deceived. No surprise there of course. Will they acknowledge their mistakes and correct themselves? The notion is laughable. You know how they are and how hypocritical most of them can be. Call it ego, pride, cognitive dissonance or all the above. You know that most will never change.

The fact of the mater is that both Christians and non-Christians have been sold a huge lie and not one person on either side is willing to admit they fell for it. I have done this challenge before on another forum and the result was the entire thread being deleted as well as my account, countless other threads I made, and countless posts others made in said threads. Thousands of posts vanished just like that.

Why all the hate? Because no one can make their Genesis teachings work when held under scrutiny. It’s so easy to ‘paraphrase’ and ‘summarize’ the false dogma everyone hears out there. Christians will high-five each other and pat each other on the back and hand out ‘like’ emoticons like candy as if they did something amazing. Typical confirmation bias and circular reasoning is what you find.

However, when forced to do a verse-by-verse commentary explaining how their conclusions were reached, their “exegesis” failed every time. The hurt pride felt by those who couldn’t take defeat led to mass censorship on a scale I had never seen before. And trust me, I have been though and seen a lot of censorship over the years.

Consequently, if you’ve never heard of some of the solutions mentioned in the OP, it’s because there is a Spirit that does not want you to know what is *really* being taught in the Adam and Eve story. It’s been like this for centuries. If stoning people to death were legal, I would have been dead long ago. You folks have no idea how high the stakes are with what I am showing you. A lot of apple carts will be upset once this info gets out into mainstream. Maybe A.I. will have something to say about it one day. This is a huge deal and all we get are crickets.

One more thing to the non-believers…

Some of you may feel vindicated knowing that you were correct with regards to Genesis 2:17 being literal:

Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Maybe you even went as far as to say that God lied, and the Serpent told the truth when he said:

Genesis 3:4 - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Unfortunately for you, it really was the Serpent who lied. God really did tell the truth. You have some corrections of your own now to deal with.

The bottom line is that all of us were lied to by the false teachers out there. Whether Christians can overcome their narcissistic behavior, and humble themselves for once, is yet to be seen. Miracles can happen. It did for me. No doubt the ‘Report’ button will be working overtime after this post. Some folks simply cannot accept defeat.

 

[Exegesis]

Did God really turn a snake into a snake?

 

[Deborah_]

The words ‘day’ and ‘surely die’ are to be interpreted literally

• i.e., ‘day’ means 24hrs or less
• i.e., ‘surely die’ means actual death, not ‘spiritual death’ or ‘began to age’

Why?
This is narrowing the playing field unnecessarily

 

[Exegesis]

Why?

To expose the lies that have gone on for far too long now.

This is narrowing the playing field unnecessarily

Or we could call it 'playing by the rules':

Revelation 22:18-19 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Taking away from the Book is an unpardonable sin.

 

[Wick Stick]

The various ways in which the Genesis Creation Account is currently being taught have some very big problems. These problems are well documented for those that are unfamiliar with them. Basically, Genesis one through three teachings contradict themselves. To make matters worse, most teachings take away and add unto the sacred text to force it to fit into some preconceived false narrative.

Christians should know better. Taking away and adding to the Word of God is a huge no-no. In the eyes of the non-believer, teaching Genesis in a contradictory manner just reinforces the stereotype that Christians are hopelessly ignorant. Countless discussions, videos, websites, etc. have been dedicated to this topic, proving that not a single person on this planet has been able to teach Genesis one through three without breaking the basic rules of exegesis... that is until now.

I am offering a challenge to anyone reading this to present your verse-by-verse commentary and prove to the world that you are not lying to them by teaching the Genesis Creation Account without altering words, without contradicting yourself, and most important of all, keeping it all Biblical.

Basic Rules:

• No paraphrasing, e.g., “Genesis 2 is a retelling of Genesis 1”
• Use a verse-by-verse commentary to prove your work, similar to the example I will post
• Use any translation you want (mixing is OK)
• Do not take away, add, or change words and meanings
• The words ‘day’ and ‘surely die’ are to be interpreted literally
  • i.e., ‘day’ means 24hrs or less
  • i.e., ‘surely die’ means actual death, not ‘spiritual death’ or ‘began to age’
• Your interpretation must not contradict either the Old Testament or the New Testament.

I will submit my entry in the next post.

The challenge is wrong-headed.

Genesis 1:1 - 2:4 is a single composition. The phrase "these are the generations of the heavens and the earth" is a toledoth statement - a title that appears at the bottom of a scroll or tablet to identify it. That's its name.

Genesis 2:5 starts an entirely new composition. It belongs to "the book of the generations of Adam," which ends at Genesis 5:1.

Trying to make Genesis 2 part of the same story as Genesis 1 can't work. They're different stories, from different scrolls. Making them a single story is already a mistake.

 

[Adventageous]

Basically, Genesis one through three teachings contradict themselves.

Hi.

No, Genesis 1-3's teachings do not contradict themselves. That you think that they do, means you have not rightly understood those 'chapters' and are in need of correction.

Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.​

​

Psa_119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.​

​

Isa_46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:​

​

Tit_1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;​

​

Heb_6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:​

The reason you have such confusion in the matter, and not to be in any way harsh or derogatory, is that you are not spiritually minded, but naturally minded, and thus cannot understand spiritual things, as the word of God in its right order, definition, etc. It requires submission to the Holy Ghost, who teaches all things:

​

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

​

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

​

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.​

​

God does not need, nor require, me, you or 'them' to interpret anything in any portion of the Bible, since God has already done that in the word itself for us:

​

Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.​

​

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:​

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.​

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.​

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.​

God has not left it to mankind to interpret, but only to "amen" what God has already interpreted therein:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.​

Therefore:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

​

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.​

This is why Jesus is called the "Amen" of the Father:

Rev_3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;​

So, if you have issues with seeing that Gen. 1-3 are not in contradiction to itself, let alone the rest of scripture, even though it is written altogether in chiastic structure from Gen. to Rev., and unbreakable (Jhn. 10:35 KJB), then the problem is not the texts before you, but (and this requires humility, teachableness, on your part), 'you' are the problem, and the incorrect a priori that you either had growing up, were taught by fallible men, etc, and all of that needs to get thrown aside, so that you may be taught of God, in God's word, by God. Now, God can send teachers (as one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost), but they are to be tested by the word itself, since it is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

"Exegesis" is often a cover term for when people actually say they are studying the Bible, but in reality are 'exiting-Jesus' (removing Jesus) from the Bible. "Eisegesis" is often a cover term for when people actually say that they are attempting to read out of the Bible deeper truths, but in reality, are "I seeing Jesus' in places Jesus is not at all, and make up new doctrines / practices from their own vain imaginations, as for instance attempting to read the Jesuit 'Big Bangism' (Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître, SJ) into Gen. 1 when no such thing exists there.

If you really want to look at Gen. 1-3, I will spend some time with you, but you have to put away your own silly rules first and simply come to the texts itself / themselves. I will ask only once, do you want to do this? Yes or no. I am not looking for a speech or even a reply to this whole response. That is for you to consider in your own heart. I only want to know, "Yes" or "no" to the question just asked, otherwise, my time (paid for by the blood of the Son of God, Jesus) is spent better elsewhere.

 

[Exegesis]

The challenge is wrong-headed.

OK, let's see why...

Genesis 1:1 - 2:4 is a single composition. The phrase "these are the generations of the heavens and the earth" is a toledoth statement - a title that appears at the bottom of a scroll or tablet to identify it. That's its name.

Right-on @Wick Stick. I am so glad you brought this up. Indeed, we are looking at a toledoth statement. Moreover, this falls under the ‘Principle of First Mention’:

​

Let’s do a quick fact check just to be sure:

​

That makes this particular toledoth the most revealing one and perhaps the most important one if we wish to understand the deepest most profound wisdom the Bible has to offer. And look, the toledoth is after Genesis 1:1 through 2:3. The transition occurs at 2:4.

Trying to make Genesis 2 part of the same story as Genesis 1 can't work. They're different stories, from different scrolls. Making them a single story is already a mistake.

That is the dogma I am arguing against.

Like I said, the toledoth falls under the Principle of First Mention which means that the words ‘Heavens and Earth’ are trying to reveal something that is somewhat hidden. The Revelation is that Heavens and Earth are to be understood as REAL GENEALOGY.

​

As the AI overview indicates, a toledoth is *usually* about people and their genealogy/family tree. And that is exactly what Genesis 2:4 is about. Specifically, ‘Heavens and Earth’ is referring to *SEED* that was created on the Third Day:

Genesis 1:12-13 - And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Practically every Christian on the planet has no idea in the world that the Third Heaven, which was created on the Third Day (get it?), is the Kingdom of God Within. It is *not* “earth’s atmosphere” or whatever nonsense false teachers peddle. The Third Heaven is the Microcosm of Life. Paul referred to it in 2 Corinthians 12:2.

2 Corinthians 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

The Third Heaven is what John was looking at in Revelation:

​

Again, it is Paradise, the Kingdom of God/Heaven Within. Seed/DNA/Genealogy.

Matthew 13:38 - The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Mark 4:26 - And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven is all about what happened on the Third Day when Man and Seed were created.

This statement is misleading:

​

Since both Seed and Man were created on the Third Day, the toledoth still stands as focusing on genealogy, generations, DNA, lineage, genomes, etc. just like the other uses.

This is correct:

​

It absolutely links it. And it begins with Genesis 2:4.

​

Toledoth and the Structure of Genesis - Theopolis Institute

Think of the Greater Light in Genesis. That is a foreshadowing of the father archetype. The Lesser Light is a foreshadowing of the mother archetype. The Stars are their offspring. The Bible goes out of its way to again link these celestial bodies to real toledoth/genealogy/genomes.

It is about the marriage of Heaven and Earth to produce life. Salvation is a *biology* issue. God Eugenics. The Kingdom is precious life.

 

[Wrangler]

The challenge is wrong-headed.

Agreed.

 

[Wick Stick]

OK, let's see why...

There's a lot to unpack here. Forgive me if I don't respond to everything. I will ignore things we agree on, and focus on differences. Forgive me for being disagreeable. :)

Like I said, the toledoth falls under the Principle of First Mention which means that the words ‘Heavens and Earth’ are trying to reveal something that is somewhat hidden. The Revelation is that Heavens and Earth are to be understood as REAL GENEALOGY.

REAL GENEALOGY is a problem, rather than a benefit.

Paul teaches that genealogies are useless... no, worse than useless... they're actively sources of contention that we ought to ignore (1Tim 1:4, Titus 3:9).

Jesus also teaches that genealogies are unreliable... in John 6-8 he develops a doctrine that patriarchy can be (ought to be) determined by looking at behavior, rather than genealogies. I.e. Abraham's children act like Abraham. The rest of the New Testament follows Jesus in this (as they should).

Practically every Christian on the planet has no idea in the world that the Third Heaven, which was created on the Third Day (get it?), is the Kingdom of God Within. It is *not* “earth’s atmosphere” or whatever nonsense false teachers peddle. The Third Heaven is the Microcosm of Life. Paul referred to it in 2 Corinthians 12:2.

You are not referring to the primary level of meaning. You perhaps know already that the Jews give Scripture 4 levels of meaning to Scripture (PARDES)... your moniker hints at it, anyhow. The primary meaning in Genesis 1 literally refers to the creation (though the words aren't all completely literal).

What you advance after must belong to one of the deeper levels... I'd guess Drash.

And it begins with Genesis 2:4.

I beg to differ. The toledoth statements of Genesis (mostly) occur at the END of their sections; not the beginning. The "generations of the heavens and earth (2:4), belongs to the preceding section (1:1 -2:3), rather than the following section (2:5 - 5:1).

Think of the Greater Light in Genesis. That is a foreshadowing of the father archetype. The Lesser Light is a foreshadowing of the mother archetype. The Stars are their offspring. The Bible goes out of its way to again link these celestial bodies to real toledoth/genealogy/genomes.

I agree, but I want qualifications. The "greater light" or sun is emblematic of the monarchy. The "lesser light" or moon is emblematic of the priesthood. The "stars" are types of the leaders of tribes and clans (in medieval terminology we would call them 'nobles'). The whole thing is best explained in Joseph's dream (Gen 37).

It is about the marriage of Heaven and Earth to produce life. Salvation is a *biology* issue. God Eugenics. The Kingdom is precious life.

The "marriage of Heaven and Earth" sounds an awful lot like Hesiod's marriage of Ouranos and Gaia. Does the Bible really mirror pagan mythologies? (yeah, it does)

 

[Exegesis]

Hi.

Hi @Adventageous . Let's see what you have here.

Genesis 1-3's teachings do not contradict themselves.

I agree. Moreover, I can prove it. So far, no one that I have seen anywhere has been able to do it. That includes you.

That you think that they do...

That is incorrect. You misunderstood the OP. Many, including scholars, view Genesis 1 and 2 as being contradictory:

​

The purpose of this thread is to prove them wrong, which I have done successfully. No one else has as far as I know.

...you have not rightly understood those 'chapters' and are in need of correction.

Your statement is quite ironic.

Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.​

​

Psa_119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.​

​

Isa_46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:​

​

Tit_1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;​

​

Heb_6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:​

None of the above debunks the OP in any way.

The reason you have such confusion in the matter, and not to be in any way harsh or derogatory, is that you are not spiritually minded, but naturally minded, and thus cannot understand spiritual things, as the word of God in its right order, definition, etc.

Not only have you not proven that I have 'such confusion in the matter', but you also decided to add an insult which just makes you look that much worse. That is not the way to debate.

It requires submission to the Holy Ghost, who teaches all things:

​

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

​

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

​

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.​

You are rambling again.

God does not need, nor require, me, you or 'them' to interpret anything in any portion of the Bible, since God has already done that in the word itself for us:

​

Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.​

​

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:​

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.​

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.​

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.​

God has not left it to mankind to interpret, but only to "amen" what God has already interpreted therein:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.​

Therefore:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

​

1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.​

This is why Jesus is called the "Amen" of the Father:

Rev_3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;​

Still rambling...

So, if you have issues with seeing that Gen. 1-3 are not in contradiction to itself, let alone the rest of scripture, even though it is written altogether in chiastic structure from Gen. to Rev., and unbreakable (Jhn. 10:35 KJB), then the problem is not the texts before you, but (and this requires humility, teachableness, on your part), 'you' are the problem, and the incorrect a priori that you either had growing up, were taught by fallible men, etc, and all of that needs to get thrown aside, so that you may be taught of God, in God's word, by God. Now, God can send teachers (as one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost), but they are to be tested by the word itself, since it is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

Still rambling...

"Exegesis" is often a cover term for when people actually say they are studying the Bible, but in reality are 'exiting-Jesus' (removing Jesus) from the Bible. "Eisegesis" is often a cover term for when people actually say that they are attempting to read out of the Bible deeper truths, but in reality, are "I seeing Jesus' in places Jesus is not at all, and make up new doctrines / practices from their own vain imaginations, as for instance attempting to read the Jesuit 'Big Bangism' (Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître, SJ) into Gen. 1 when no such thing exists there.

Still rambling...

If you really want to look at Gen. 1-3, I will spend some time with you...

Honestly, I would rather have root canals all day.

...but you have to put away your own silly rules first

OK, now you are crossing the line. These aren't 'my rules', they are God's rules which I already stated in post #8. I suspect you are not able to follow them which is why you haven't bothered with the challenge.

I will ask only once, do you want to do this? Yes or no.

No. In fact, you should just put me on ignore since it's obvious that interacting with you is painfully unfruitful. I'd hate to have to read anymore of your over the top condescending rhetoric.

Again, you have proven nothing with all of that puffing up you did. Learn to debate. You are at level "Ad-Hominem"...

​

@Wrangler is just above you at "Responding to the Tone" level.

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler is just above you at "Responding to the Tone" level.

On the contrary, we are refuting your central thesis, beginning with your claim of being a Christian yet don't offer an apologetic to God or his Anointed but doubt other witnesses of God's kingdom to meet teaching Scripture to the same awesome glory of your most excellent - and humble - presentation as post #2.

@Wick Stick concisely observed your central point is wrong-headed, which is not a personal attack. Because of Phil 4:8, I refuse to match your wrong-headed spirit of divisiveness point by point. And your repeated contemptuously calling @Adventageous detailed posts "rambling" verifies I am acting according to the spirit. (I foresaw your trap.)

I do not sense in you an openness to discuss your main thesis. So full of pride in your own understanding, so blasphemous in your pronouncements of God's word that I only ask you to consider we who refute your foolishness are living it viz a vie:
Proverbs 26:4 (CJB) Don’t answer a fool in terms of his folly, or you will be descending to his level

Proverbs 29:9 When a wise man argues with a foolish one, he meets anger and ridicule without relief.

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler is just above you at "Responding to the Tone" level.

On the contrary, we are refuting your central thesis ...

Said differently, we are choosing not to address your pedantic display of knowledge. Instead, we are reacting to your self-aggrandizement in putting us down.

I confess that I am only a 2nd class Christian; not a 1st class Christian like yourself. Rather than brag about how much better I am than others, I strive instead to give glory to God while I concede my defense of my lord is never adequate, I fight the good fight. You fight the wrong fight and no matter how well you do it, it is wrong.

 

[Exegesis]

There's a lot to unpack here. Forgive me if I don't respond to everything. I will ignore things we agree on, and focus on differences. Forgive me for being disagreeable. :)

You're fine.

REAL GENEALOGY is a problem, rather than a benefit.

Paul teaches that genealogies are useless... no, worse than useless... they're actively sources of contention that we ought to ignore (1Tim 1:4, Titus 3:9).

Great point. I agree. There are too many people that get 'big headed' about bloodlines and being 'descended from royalty', etc. who think their DNA is better than everyone else's and so that makes them entitled to some high position of power. I've had people email me over the years trying to get me to join their 'aryan race' club. It's ridiculous.

What the Bible is ultimately teaching is that the planet is set for termination. Why? Because the genetics of the planet has been corrupted so badly it has become a threat to anything and everything, even to the Heavenly realms. That is the story Scripture is trying to teach in a delicate, yet stern manner. The real Good News of the Bible is that there is a 'repair program' that will correct said genetics and fix the mess that began in the Garden of Eden.

It is that 'repair program' that I am fascinated with. I want to show folks, mainly non-believers, that they can make a more informed decision on whether they wish to join the program or not. Athiests are of course the hardest to reach, but a lot of that has to do with being lied to, hence this thread. They are not idiots. They know that the way Genesis is taught by the mainstream does not add up.

Jesus also teaches that genealogies are unreliable... in John 6-8 he develops a doctrine that patriarchy can be (ought to be) determined by looking at behavior, rather than genealogies. I.e. Abraham's children act like Abraham. The rest of the New Testament follows Jesus in this (as they should).

Pretty much every Christian I have spoken to gets furious with me for me for believing what Jesus said here:

John 8:44 - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

It is literal. In other words, EVERYONE (except Jesus of course) is descended from the Devil. That is the hardcore reality of it. Like I said, our genetics are corrupt. No one is special. Abraham's Seed is *not* about human bloodlines and whether folks are 'chosen' or not. Abraham's Seed is *one* genotype:

Galatians 3:16 - Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

In other words, the whole point of Abraham and the Twelve Tribes is to tell the tale of the *promise* of the upgraded genome. Possibly a 'Twelve Base' construct. We don't have that yet obviously. Abraham is the archetype of the Father in Heaven. Sarah is New Jerusalem.

*All of us* on the planet are metaphorically born of Hagar. She is the archetype for corrupt genetics on our mother's side. To put it bluntly:

• Devil = Corrupt Father/Sperm
• Hagar = Corrupt Mother/Ovum

Hence, we all *literally* must be born again. We have to be re-conceived of new parents into the new 'upgraded' genome that the Bible describes using symbolic language. So we get:

• Abraham = Non Corrupt Father/Sperm
• Sarah = Non Corrupt Mother/Ovum

These are real, tangible, quantifiable things describing the most intimate details of DNA, Particle Physics, Quantum Mechanics, etc. that have no business being in a book thousands of years old. Yet, there it is. I am simply on the cutting edge of these discoveries thanks to some brilliant people out there that taught me. This will all be mainstream one day once the AI gets wind of it.

You are not referring to the primary level of meaning. You perhaps know already that the Jews give Scripture 4 levels of meaning to Scripture (PARDES)... your moniker hints at it, anyhow.

Right. I usually simplify the four levels and call it 'meat' vs. 'milk'.

What is so funny is that the Mystery is revealed right in the name itself:

​

The Garden of Eden is symbolic of a womb (Jerusalem) with the 'Mountain of God' being the 'Male Generative Principle' or phalus that 'fertilizes' the Ovum Tree of Life with its 'mayim' seminal fluid.

​

The Devil fertilized the other ovum tree of knowledge. He was 'cast out' ('vomited out') of the phalus. Get it?

Ezekiel 28:16 - By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Stones of Fire, Phosphorus/Lucifer/Fallen Angels/Falling Stars.

It's all there in front of people's faces. They just don't see it yet. They will when the time is right.

I agree, but I want qualifications. The "greater light" or sun is emblematic of the monarchy. The "lesser light" or moon is emblematic of the priesthood. The "stars" are types of the leaders of tribes and clans (in medieval terminology we would call them 'nobles'). The whole thing is best explained in Joseph's dream (Gen 37).

How I see it:

Sun = King = Masculine = Father = Male Seed
Moon = High Priest = Mother = Feminine = Female Seed
Stars = Prophet = Child = Zygote

Example:

The 'Woman of the Apocalypse' is symbolic of the Moon/Mother/Female Seed. She is clothed with the Sun/Masculine/Male Seed. It is a picture of conception. Fertilization takes place when the two are joined and thus the Twelve Stars become twelve Zygotes.

It's all about 'Her Seed' that began in the Garden of Eden. So, again, it's not about 'my DNA is better than yours'. It's about Abraham's Seed singular, i.e., the Messiah vs the 'Seed of the Serpent' from which we are all conceived from.

The "marriage of Heaven and Earth" sounds an awful lot like Hesiod's marriage of Ouranos and Gaia. Does the Bible really mirror pagan mythologies? (yeah, it does)

Yeah, there is a lot of overlap. Christians tend to by hyper paranoid and extremely superstitious every time they hear something they never heard before. Guilty until proven innocent is their MO.

Is grass green? "That's of the Devil!"

Is the sky blue? "Oh, you better believe that's demonic!!"

Is water wet? "Blasphemy!!!" "Stone him!!!"

It's so tiresome.

 

[ScottA]

My Submission to the Challenge:



Genesis 2:4 Commentary:
The verse marks the beginning of a series of ‘recap’ verses of Genesis 1, with additional details being added. The focus here is on the Third Day, when the Heavens and Earth were completed and ready for its first form of life. Day means day, not 'six days'.



Genesis 2:5 Commentary:
We have confirmation that Genesis 2:4 is indeed focusing on the Third Day. Moreover, we are at the precise moment in time when no plants, and therefore no life, existed.

What was the first form of life created on the Third Day?



Genesis 2:7 Commentary:
As we can clearly see, we have an issue. Christians are told that Man was originally created on the Sixth Day. According to the Bible however, Man was originally created on the Third Day. We have exposed the first big lie that Christians teach. For clarity, I will refer to this being as the ‘First Adam’. Note that Jesus is the ‘Last Adam’ who rose on the Third Day. Perfect! Scripture is aligned with Scripture.

What was the next form of life created on the Third Day? Plants:



Genesis 2:8 Commentary:
According to the verse, Man was already formed before plants, obviously. Interestingly, God started with a garden first, rather than filling the entire planet with plant life. This makes sense from a geo-engineering perspective. Start small, then work your way up.



Genesis 2:9 Commentary:
God begins to make Trees. They are pleasing to the eye and good for food. We are obviously still on the Third Day.



Genesis 2:17 Commentary:
Continuing within the Third Day, God gives a strict command to the First Adam to not partake of the Forbidden Fruit or else he will die on that very day. Note that there is nothing here to suggest that the First Adam would ‘die spiritually’ or ‘begin to die’ or ‘be separated from God’, etc. Those are false Church dogmas inserted into the text.

Now, since no Animals have been created yet, the First Adam is truly all alone. No problem, God has a solution:



Genesis 2:18 Commentary:
The verse above makes it clear that the First Adam was alone because no animals were created yet.



Genesis 2:19 Commentary:
The timeline jumps to the Fifth Day (creation of flying creatures) and then to the Sixth Day (creation of tame and wild animals). Note that something very important just occurred. A Law was made. Did you catch it? Whenever God creates a living being, Adam must name it. Moreover, whatever Adam ‘calls’ the newly formed being, that was its name.



Genesis 2:22 Commentary:
Because the animals were not sufficient help, God creates a new being called ‘Ishshah’. Most Bibles translate this word as ‘Woman’. Note that this is not Eve! Nowhere does the name Eve show up until after the Fall. <- Pay attention!

Now, according to the Law we just went over, Adam must now name this newly created being:



Genesis 2:23 Commentary:
Adam ‘calls’ the new being ‘Ishshah’, thus that was her name. Again, it was not Eve. Note that Ishshah was named by the method by which she was created. This is a common theme in the Bible. Jacob was the 'heal grabber' etc. Ishshah was taken from Ish. This a huge clue that this is not Eve.

Eve was created by a different method, and thus as we will soon see, was consequently named per said method.

And so it was, when the First Adam, along with his Wife Ishshah, partook of the Forbidden Fruit, they died on that very day. Not only did they die the First Death, but they also died the Second Death. Die+Die = Twice Dead.

Note that the Second Death came once the man was 'cast out' in Genesis 3:24. It is a picture of begin cast out of Heaven and into the Lake of Fire and out into the physical world.



Genesis 3:6 Commentary:
The phrase ‘surely die’ means ‘dying ye shall die’ or ‘dying the First Death, ye shall die the Second Death’ (twice dead). And that is precisely what happened, all within the Sixth Day. The couple became dust of the ground.

Here is a study on what the phrase ‘surely die’ means:

Ministry Magazine | Dying You Shall Die: The meaning of Genesis 2:17

Teaching that the couple ‘spiritually died’ or that the day they died was ‘a thousand years’ is completely unscriptural. This is fact, not opinion.

And finally, Scripture gives us a foreshadow of the Resurrection of Damnation:



Genesis 3:7 Commentary:
Because the couple became dust of the ground, God had to resurrect them. Note that this was not the Resurrection of Glory, but rather the Resurrection of Damnation. Their eyes were opened because the dead are asleep and must be awakened. Did God lie? Of course not. Did the Word of God contradict? No. They were 'naked' because they were not clothed with a physical body yet.

God then proceeded to recreate and 'clothe' the couple with a physical body on the Sixth Day as per Genesis 1:27:



Genesis 1:27 Commentary:
As mentioned previously, a new method of creation requires a new name:



Genesis 3:20 Commentary:
Again, according to the Law, every time God creates something new, Adam must name it. Eve is now given reproductive organs, hence 'mother of all living'. Ishshah did not have any reproductive organs. Neither did the First Adam. Sex in a Heavenly environment is not Biblical. This is common sense. Christians are being blasphemous for teaching that God wanted the couple to have sex in the Garden of Eden. Having sex while eating of the Tree of Life is literally a demonic teaching.

Ishshah was created from a rib. Eve was created from the Forbidden Fruit. Two different methods of creation created two different women. Did Adam name the same wife twice? Obviously not! That is another absurd teaching from the Christian community.

And of course, for obvious reasons, the couple had to be given a new ‘covering’ of skin and flesh as part of the Resurrection process:



No, God did not ‘kill an animal’ and dress them like the Flintstones. That is more church dogma and lies.

And there we have it. This marks first time anyone has taught Genesis without contradicting or changing words to fit a false narrative.

Now it's your turn.

THIS IS MESSED UP...just your own narrative instead of someone else's.

What you said in your first post was good, but then in your second post commentary, you didn't hold to it and just gave your own interpretation, not accounting for all that is written (effectively adding and taking away parts). Such as you claiming the "Woman" was not "Eve", while what is written refers to each as Adam's "wife", as being one and the same.

 

[Exegesis]

THIS IS MESSED UP...just your own narrative instead of someone else's.

What you said in your first post was good, but then in your second post commentary, you didn't hold to it and just gave your own interpretation, not accounting for all that is written (effectively adding and taking away parts). Such as you claiming the "Woman" was not "Eve", while what is written refers to each as Adam's "wife", as being one and the same.

Hi @ScottA . Welcome to the thread.

If you could do a verse by verse commentary similar to mine, then we can see where 'I messed up'.

This applies to everyone reading this.

And just so that we are all clear in our understanding here, the name 'Eve' does not show up until Genesis 3:20:

Genesis 3:20 - And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

This is a fact that cannot be changed. Nowhere is the name Eve mentioned before that. It looks like you made a false assumption.

Since I already did the challenge, I can summarize what I already posted:

• The First Adam was created on the Third Day. We could be looking at a form of Kenosis here.
• The first woman was created from his rib.
• The First Adam named this newly created creature 'Ishshah' or Woman. (Ishshah taken from Ish).
• The couple are immortal. They are 'naked' because they are Spirit and Soul only.
• They have no reproductive organs, thus 'they were not ashamed'.
• They have no physical body. This is how all are resurrected by the way.
• The Body comes later depending on which 'fruit' or zygote one chooses to make a covenant with.
• Tree of Life Zygote Fruit = Glorified Body. Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil Zygote Fruit = Corrupt Body.
• Both trees represent conception. Being born again is a literal, physical process involving real physical biology.
• The First Adam and Ishshah chose to be clothed with a corrupt body. The price is *REAL* death.
• After partaking of the Forbidden Fruit, they both died within a 24hr period, i.e., the Sixth Day.
• This was a real death, not pixie dust, unicorn, false dogma, so called 'spiritual fake news death'.
• They have now returned to the dust of the ground.
• They are sent to Hell where they gain the knowledge of good and evil.
• Thus, the knowledge of good and evil is something that is learned the hard way in the afterlife as an unredeemed sinner.
• The Tree of Life/Wisdom is the easy way to understanding. Wisdom vs. Knowledge.
• After suffering in Hell, God resurrects the couple. This is the Resurrection of Damnation.
• Their eyes are opened physically and metaphorically because they were 'sleeping the sleep of death'.
• They now know what being 'naked' means. It means they have no physical body.
• Their new genes, inherited from the Forbidden Fruit, gives them reproductive organs.
• These new reproductive organs are called 'shame'. All of us are born with shame.
• God then 'clothes them' with a physical body on the Sixth Day.
• This brand new couple now has the same corrupt bodies we have now. They have become mortal.
• Thus the Adam that was created on the Sixth Day is not the exact same Adam that was created on the Third Day.
• The woman created from the rib is not the same as the one created from the Forbidden Fruit.
• The new Adam named his wife 'Eve' because again, she is a new creature not made from a rib.

The seasoned student must go back and read the account again and again without changing words to see it. It can take a while to 'unbrainwash' from all of the corruption one has accumulated. It could take a lifetime. It took me several decades. False teachings are often hard to let go.

Once completed however, the student will be rewarded with the TRUE understanding of what Hell and the Lake of Fire are all about.

God is Love. Christians are taught the exact opposite. Christians are taught the most evil and degenerate hatred imaginable about 'infinite torments' and 'annihilation'. Christians teach that God is more evil than Satan. This thread serves to correct that. Why am I hated for it? I know why.

 

[Adventageous]

I am leaving this thread, since my offer was refused. There is no point in me staying here to waste the precious time purchased by the blood of the son of the Father.