Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?

[St. SteVen]

The former of course by default, the message of the Gospel is reconciliation.

Exactly.
And at great expense.
Why do all that if the plan was to incinerate the vast majority for not measuring up to an unattainable standard?

 

[Lizbeth]

This a messy business.
If God in his foreknowledge knew that the vast majority would reject or never have the opportunity to respond,
why would He be satisfied with a plan (in His foreknowledge) that led to the destruction of countless billions?
Is God in the punishment business, or the restoration business?

You're talking and thinking like a man. It's not surprising that you think this is all about us.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
This a messy business.
If God in his foreknowledge knew that the vast majority would reject or never have the opportunity to respond,
why would He be satisfied with a plan (in His foreknowledge) that led to the destruction of countless billions?
Is God in the punishment business, or the restoration business?

You're talking and thinking like a man. It's not surprising that you think this is all about us.

It's not rocket science.
Anyone guilty of genocide is not a good person. (god)
The Bible thumpers can't be right.
It defies any good thought about God.
Is God in the punishment business, or the restoration business?

 

[ProDeo]

Exactly.
And at great expense.
Why do all that if the plan was to incinerate the vast majority for not measuring up to an unattainable standard?

OTOH I believe there will be people who can't stand the light, His holiness and prefer to live in their sins and they will run away into outer darkness afraid of His holiness.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

 

[Brakelite]

Here's something I find interesting.

My views on Ultimate Redemption (Universalism) are typically dismissed for not aligning with "a whole Bible view".
Seems that saw should cut both ways.

What happens if your "a whole Bible view" includes my scriptures rather than dismisses them? - Then what?

Romans 5:15-19 NIV
But the gift is not like the trespass.
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by
the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation,
but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man,
how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of
the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[

You need to question the character of the people you believe God is bringing into the kingdom. Do you remember reading of the occasions when even prophets experienced a visible reality of God's presence? Isaiah. Daniel. The apostle John. What happened to them, examples of the best of us?

The sinner could not be happy in God’s presence; he would shrink from the companionship of holy beings. Could he be permitted to enter heaven, it would have no joy for him. The spirit of unselfish love that reigns there—every heart responding to the heart of Infinite Love—would touch no answering chord in his soul. His thoughts, his interests, his motives, would be alien to those that actuate the sinless dwellers there. He would be a discordant note in the melody of heaven. Heaven would be to him a place of torture; he would long to be hidden from Him who is its light, and the center of its joy. It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship. The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them.

"15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? ”
Revelation 6:15-17 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

It isn't God Who takes positive action to destroy sinners. Sinners destroy themselves when they refuse to distance themselves from the sin which cannot survive in God's presence and glory... these demand as a natural inevitable conclusive finality its non existence in the universe of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

The sinner could not be happy in God’s presence; he would shrink from the companionship of holy beings. Could he be permitted to enter heaven, it would have no joy for him.

That assumes that God's presence is condemning rather than loving.
And typically used to whitewash the hell doctrine by blaming the victim.
Is God in the business of punishment or redemption?

 

[Lizbeth]

St. SteVen said:
This a messy business.
If God in his foreknowledge knew that the vast majority would reject or never have the opportunity to respond,
why would He be satisfied with a plan (in His foreknowledge) that led to the destruction of countless billions?
Is God in the punishment business, or the restoration business?

It's not rocket science.
Anyone guilty of genocide is not a good person. (god)
The Bible thumpers can't be right.
It defies any good thought about God.
Is God in the punishment business, or the restoration business?

The answer is both, as scripture testifies. But this world is rife with self-centred, man-centred gospels and religions. God's purpose involves us, but it isn't about us. Reminds me of an old song called "You're so Vain"....".you think this is song is about you, don't you, don't you?"

Mankind essentially brings about his own destruction, with the devil's help. The Lord has done and is doing all He can to rescue "whosoever will" before it happens. Anyone who wanted to could have climbed aboard the Ark that Noah built before the flood came and destroyed them all..... but only a handful were willing. The vast majority thought it was "foolishness" and didn't believe a flood was going to come.......they didn't believe the foolishness of Noah's preaching....foolishness to the perishing....foolishness to the wisdom of man.

Hmm, think this might be why Jesus said there will be "wars until the end"...?

Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[St. SteVen]

Anyone who wanted to could have climbed aboard the Ark that Noah built before the flood came and destroyed them all..... but only a handful were willing. The vast majority thought it was "foolishness" and didn't believe a flood was going to come.......

That's not supported by scripture to my knowledge.

God's purpose involves us, but it isn't about us.

That's a ridiculous assertion. IMHO
We were created in His image. And you think His plans are indifferent to us?
He cares enough to incinerate those who don't measure up, right?

 

[Lizbeth]

That's not supported by scripture to my knowledge.

That's a ridiculous assertion. IMHO
We were created in His image. And you think His plans are indifferent to us?
He cares enough to incinerate those who don't measure up, right?

Nobody can measure up in our own selves. But not all will perish. Why....because of God's grace in Christ, freely offered to all and given to whosoever will. That is the gospel.

 

[St. SteVen]

Nobody can measure up in our own selves. But not all will perish. Why....because of God's grace in Christ, freely offered to all and given to whosoever will. That is the gospel.

Glad to see that you have modified your view on that.

 

[Button]

It is God's omniscient foreknowledge of everyone's hearts and foreknowing how each one would respond to Him, and to the gospel. He foreknew everyone before He created them. How I understand it is that those who He foreknew would reject Him and not repent, He created them anyway....to be vessels of wrath. The bible says explicitly that believers are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". He chose us in Him from the foundation of the world.....predestination is based on His foreknowledge.

And it is all possible because God willed it in the beginning.
Adam and Eve didn't plant the forbidden tree in the garden.

 

[Lizbeth]

And it is all possible because God willed it in the beginning.
Adam and Eve didn't plant the forbidden tree in the garden.

Is it ever God's explicit will that anybody should sin? I don't think so, but He foreknows and foresees everything that man and devil would do, and has woven it all into His sovereign purposes, which first and foremost have to do with Satan's rebellion and spiritual war, I believe.

 

[Brakelite]

That assumes that God's presence is condemning rather than loving.
And typically used to whitewash the hell doctrine by blaming the victim.
Is God in the business of punishment or redemption?

God has done everything possible short of making man obedient through compulsion. But that would be just like me instructing my laptop to say, "I love you", whenever i program it to or I turn it on. God could do that to man. Compel him to serve and obey and be good. But is that how anyone should treat his wife?
God gave His Son to humanity. That's the greatest gift He could give. If man rejects that, what else can God do?

 

[Brakelite]

That assumes that God's presence is condemning rather than loving.
And typically used to whitewash the hell doctrine by blaming the victim.
Is God in the business of punishment or redemption?

Hold on. You are missing the point. What about the future security of the universe? You want the equivalent of uncontrolled immigration. Regardless of motive, intent, character, past record... you want condemned criminals to have carte Blanche access to the Holy place, to be forgiven without repentance, and granted the company of Holy angels without any evidence or proof whatsoever of a change of attitude. Very left wing socialist policy you want God to adopt, and endanger the security and safety of the rest of us. Not to mention the inalienable worlds that have been observing us these past 6000 years. Who going to die then should humanity fall again because of the evil incitement of these people? You want the Son of God to go through all that suffering again? How do you know He'll overcome the second time? What if He fails? What then of humanity?

 

[Button]

Is it ever God's explicit will that anybody should sin?

What is Sin?

I don't think so, but He foreknows and foresees everything that man and devil would do, and has woven it all into His sovereign purposes, which first and foremost have to do with Satan's rebellion and spiritual war, I believe.

 

[Button]

It is God's omniscient foreknowledge of everyone's hearts and foreknowing how each one would respond to Him, and to the gospel. He foreknew everyone before He created them. How I understand it is that those who He foreknew would reject Him and not repent, He created them anyway....to be vessels of wrath. The bible says explicitly that believers are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". He chose us in Him from the foundation of the world.....predestination is based on His foreknowledge.

It is God's omniscient foreknowledge of everyone's hearts and foreknowing how each one would respond to Him, and to the gospel. He foreknew everyone before He created them. How I understand it is that those who He foreknew would reject Him and not repent, He created them anyway....to be vessels of wrath. The bible says explicitly that believers are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". He chose us in Him from the foundation of the world.....predestination is based on His foreknowledge.

Do you know what that means?

God created those whom he would save. And those others he would damn because he didn't choose to let them into his grace.

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you know what that means?

God created those whom he would save. And those others he would damn because he didn't choose to let them into his grace.

The bible says He is willing that no-one should perish. It is not His explicit will.

 

[Lizbeth]

What is Sin?

My understanding of sin in a nutshell is that it is when man or devil goes their own way instead of God's. Essentially it is rebellion against God's will and way. Do you have a different understanding of it?

 

[Button]

My understanding of sin in a nutshell is that it is when man or devil goes their own way instead of God's. Essentially it is rebellion against God's will and way. Do you have a different understanding of it?

That's about it.
Sin is disobedience,non-compliance to sovereign God's law.

Sovereign God having Dominion over creation and the created therefore created sin.

Because God first created laws to be followed by those he predestined and foreknew in the beginning,would fail to obey his laws.

 

[Button]

The bible says He is willing that no-one should perish. It is not His explicit will.

That's a contradiction.
It is his explicit will.

You said it yourself and it's all in the Bible.
"It is God's omniscient foreknowledge of everyone's hearts and foreknowing how each one would respond to Him, and to the gospel. He foreknew everyone before He created them. How I understand it is that those who He foreknew would reject Him and not repent, He created them anyway....to be vessels of wrath. The bible says explicitly that believers are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God". He chose us in Him from the foundation of the world.....predestination is based on His foreknowledge."